The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Nathan]

Yes, those that fell away shared in the Holy Spirit. When they saw the changed lives, and probably even supernatural events, they shared with the rest of the congregation the power of the Holy Spirit. I dont see this language as suggesting that they experienced regeneration, the new nature, or any of the saving ministries of the HS.

Concerning Hebrews 6......
*** It is noticeable that in verses 4-5 the words have no parallel in the NT in referring to salvation. The NT usually uses the word "pistos" (faith or believe). Phrases as "once enlightened" are no where used in the NT speaking of salvation. I think these Hebrew Christians understood salvation, saw the power of salvation,

*** I think verse 9 is the hinge on which the text swings. Verse 9 moves us from the apostates who experienced and observed the ministries of the HS among the brethren, to the actual believer. The works of the apostates (even when in their former assembly) is described in verse 8. Their works brought forth only thorns and thistles. They never had the works that accompany salvation. It is not that they fell from the faith and the works that flow forth from faith, but their works were always thorns and thistles. Not so with the believer.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:
The word "salvation" is not used until here. While the former apostates had some part in the ministries of the HS because they were among the brethren, they had not experienced "salvation" and had never done the works that "accompany salvation."

With all due respect, seriously there is respect for your opinion on my side, this may be the way you see it, but it does not line up Biblically. We see the same thing reiterated in chapter 10 concerning those who can 'walk' away from this faith and thereby showing that just as it is not a fault on His part that all will not come, but on man's part for not continuing in faith. And what that does is allow us to understand the shallow end of the depth of His wisdom concerning the availability of His sacrifice for all mankind.

Hbr 10:19-29 "Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

See, the writer is addressing those who are believers. Not those who have come real close, but have just never taken the plunge. Over and over and over he addresses them as the same as he is. "We, Us, Our" are all words of identification with the ones whom he is speaking to and about. Then he refers to the past tense of sanctification. Unless God sanctifies those who He does not call....then there is no other way but to bow our knee to His incomprehensible love for all mankind. This book, and these passages in particular, make the clarity of the draw of God extending to all mankind.

Now, I have been classified as a 'universalist'. Which I will whole heartedly disagree with till my dying day. I do not believe that God will 'save all mankind somehow'. Which is the doctrine of universalism. I do believe that God has to call to man before he will respond to God. And I do not believe that God's call is deemed ineffective just because He has chosen to give mankind the right to choose. God calls to all, those who choose to love Him and simply receive the free gift, without any attempt at repayment, will receive the gift. And on the same token, if those who have received the gift, choose to 'give it back', they have that right given to them by God.

Eze 18:24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

We see here that God plainly, clearly, and concisely tells us point blank that if a righteous person TURNS away from his righteousness and does injustice, then none of the righteousness deeds he has done will be remembered, and for his sin he committed he will die. We know that there is none righteous, no not one. The only righteousness that we can have is that which is imputed on us by God because of the sinless sacrifice of Christ.

But Ezekiel is extremely clear in the point that if a man turns from that riteousness that is given to him, he will die for the sins he has committed.

BUT....

Eze 18:21 "But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

If the wicked person, turns away from his sin, and keeps all of God's statutes and does right he will live AND NOT DIE. In context we now see that 'life and death' are both spoken of the eternal kind, not temporal, because we know that it is appointed unto man to die physically.

What does it mean "keeps all my statutes"? It is to keep His Law.

Rom 8:3-4 "For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

When we walk according to the Spirit, we 'keep His statutes'. And what about the 'just and right' works?

Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

So, the free gift is just that....a gift. It is not a command. But we are confined by God in that we only have two choices. Him, or us.

Eze 18:25-32 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die. Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live."

 

[Deavonreye]

deave:

No, That believing is a result of being sanctified by the Spirit, regeneration..

How do you know if you HAVE been a recipient of that level of "sanctification"? Cannot a person believe themselves to be, yet not be? Many people believe themselves to have received it, yet many others would claim that they [the "many people" at the beginning of this sentence] are deceived.

How about the other questions I asked? Can a person be "chosen" even when that person denies it?

What is your definition of "perish"?

 

[HisSheep]

How do you know if you HAVE been a recipient of that level of "sanctification"? Cannot a person believe themselves to be, yet not be? Many people believe themselves to have received it, yet many others would claim that they [the "many people" at the beginning of this sentence] are deceived.

You cannot be born again without knowing it. That’s just my opinion, anyway…

I also think there will be no one in Hell who wanted God and really tried, but just didn’t measure up. Those in Hell will have richly deserved it. God will not mourn the loss of them, nor will the elect.

Salvation comes in three steps… Paul outlines them beautifully in Romans:

Justification – “The hour we first believed†to quote the famous hymn. We have no role in this part of our salvation. This is simply light dawning on Marblehead… God reveals Himself and the truth of Jesus’ claim on us, and we confess Him as Lord. The Holy Spirit takes up residence in us at this point, and doesn’t ever leave us.

Sanctification – In this part of salvation we have a role. Now, we are “set apart for Godâ€, the meaning of the work saint. So actually, we are saints, no matter what Rome says. We are not yet perfect, but we can see evidence of the Spirit working in us, conforming us to Christ’s image. We become aware of our sinfulness, and actually want to overcome it. When the Spirit empowers us to do this (at least in part), we are assured of His providence to us.

Glorification – We are raised up on the last day – finally like Christ.

So we can rightly say, “I am savedâ€, “I am being savedâ€, and “I will be savedâ€.

For a biblical description of evidence of God’s work in the believer consider 1 John 2:

3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,†but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

If you aren’t “in Christ†you will not want to do His will. You will want to do your will.

You will know it when you’ve decided to lay down your trophies and cling to the old rugged cross… (quoting another old hymn.) You will want to turn off the sports radio (or what have you) and find a Christian station, you will want to read your bible, and to understand the character of God. You will want to go to church. You will begin to see your earthly pursuits as frivolous, useless and vain; a waste of time. You will begin to see the world as such a sin-soaked place that you will feel uncomfortable in it, and will long to leave it behind.

How about the other questions I asked? Can a person be "chosen" even when that person denies it?

Yes, a chosen person can deny… but only for so long... Ultimately, God will get them… He always gets His way… Always. Consider Jonah… In fact a person’s denial will end up working for God’s benefit… Everything always does…

Incidentally, God saves us, not for our own benefit, but solely for His own benefit. He is doing it all for His own glory. He has works planned for certain people to do. He saves people that He may work through them to reach yet others whom He has/will placed in their paths:

Eph 2:10
For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

If God has works for you to do (and that's the reason he saves us) you will not be able to stop God any more than Jonah could. You'll believe, and do as He says. Praise God!

What is your definition of "perish"?

The second death… Hell. Not a concern for me. Again I say: praise God!

-HisSheep

 

[Strangelove]

Someone mentioned before um....what was it.....5 points of Calvinism?

Can a Calvanist please just post those 5 points and a brief overview of what they mean, just so I can see what the basic teachings are.

Thanks.

Doc.

 

[Deavonreye]

I appreciate your response, HisSheep, but I am wanting savedbygrace57 to address them.

You can read some of my posts. I was a christian for 30 years, but am now more agnostic. I didn't find "faith" to be adequate for a "personal relationship with Jesus". I also did a lot of bible reading, including "the character of god", and found lack therein. I'm quite open to the actual truth, as soon as it does its part to convince me.

 

[HisSheep]

Someone mentioned before um....what was it.....5 points of Calvinism?

Can a Calvanist please just post those 5 points and a brief overview of what they mean, just so I can see what the basic teachings are.

Thanks.

Doc.

Sure, here are the 5 points. Although keep in mind that Calvin didn't give us these five points... This is how others have since described it... The first letter of each of the points gives an acronym T.U.L.I.P.

This from What is Calvinism? | The Calvinist Corner

Total Depravity:
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."

Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.

Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.

-HisSheep

 

[Drew]

I appreciate your response, HisSheep, but I am wanting savedbygrace57 to address them.

You can read some of my posts. I was a christian for 30 years, but am now more agnostic. I didn't find "faith" to be adequate for a "personal relationship with Jesus". I also did a lot of bible reading, including "the character of god", and found lack therein. I'm quite open to the actual truth, as soon as it does its part to convince me.

Greetings. If I may offer an opinion:

I think that the church is probably off base with some of the ways it characterizes "a relationship with Jesus". I think the church often makes claims about an "experienced personal relationship" that are not really supportable from the Biblical texts. Yes, I believe Jesus is a real living king who is part of a triune Godhead. Yes, I believe He is at work in the world. And so on.

But I see nothing in the Bible that really promises that "warm fuzzy" experience that so many people seem to expect. I suggest that a better way to grasp the truth of the gospel is to not look inward for mystical experience, but instead look at the narrative we get in the Bible about a God who is working within His creation, perhaps using "unspectacular" means to get us "back to the garden".

The Bible story is not really all that centrally concerned with "what Jesus does for me in terms of an experience of God". It is rather more concerned with a grand plan to redeem all of Creation. And we (the church) are the "foot-soldiers" who are privileged to participate in this, even if without an "experience of the divine" in the "mystical" sense that so many people seem to expect.

 

[Drew]

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

I suggest that consideration of context shows that pre-destination, at least not in the sense most people think, is not on Paul's mind in Romans 9.

Romansa 9 is about Israel and God's treatment of her. And how the story of Israel connects with the fate of Gentiles.

It is an argument about nations and races, not individuals. And it is an argument about God working through Israel's history, not about decisions made at the beginning of time about individuals.

We can get into the details if you like.

 

[Deavonreye]

Greetings. If I may offer an opinion:

I think that the church is probably off base with some of the ways it characterizes "a relationship with Jesus". I think the church often makes claims about an "experienced personal relationship" that are not really supportable from the Biblical texts. Yes, I believe Jesus is a real living king who is part of a triune Godhead. Yes, I believe He is at work in the world. And so on.

But I see nothing in the Bible that really promises that "warm fuzzy" experience that so many people seem to expect. I suggest that a better way to grasp the truth of the gospel is to not look inward for mystical experience, but instead look at the narrative we get in the Bible about a God who is working within His creation, perhaps using "unspectacular" means to get us "back to the garden".

The Bible story is not really all that centrally concerned with "what Jesus does for me in terms of an experience of God". It is rather more concerned with a grand plan to redeem all of Creation. And we (the church) are the "foot-soldiers" who are privileged to participate in this, even if without an "experience of the divine" in the "mystical" sense that so many people seem to expect.

Thank you for offering that, Drew. I understand that christians must use "faith" in developing this "relationship", even without anything supernatural IN the natural occuring to indicate it. I believe that Mother Theresa stated that she never felt, saw, or heard anything from a god she chose to spend her life in serventhood. For some, however, there is a need for something more than mere "faith". I'm one who sees it that way. I may be disappointed for my entire search, but choose to remain in search mode regardless.

For someone to have a firm belief that Jesus is their king, that isn't enough to convince me that it is true, if solely based upon the text of ancient writers. As for looking AT those writings, . . . that's where I found myself backing away from them. This isn't the thread for that, but my concerns were [and are] quite valid.

I hope that savedbygrace57 can answer the following question for me [as it will determine my future comments].

savedbygrace57, what is your definition of "perish", and do those who "perish" have any say in it?

 

[smaller]

Thank you for offering that, Drew. I understand that christians must use "faith" in developing this "relationship", even without anything supernatural IN the natural occuring to indicate it. I believe that Mother Theresa stated that she never felt, saw, or heard anything from a god she chose to spend her life in serventhood. For some, however, there is a need for something more than mere "faith". I'm one who sees it that way. I may be disappointed for my entire search, but choose to remain in search mode regardless.

For someone to have a firm belief that Jesus is their king, that isn't enough to convince me that it is true, if solely based upon the text of ancient writers. As for looking AT those writings, . . . that's where I found myself backing away from them. This isn't the thread for that, but my concerns were [and are] quite valid.

I hope that savedbygrace57 can answer the following question for me [as it will determine my future comments].

savedbygrace57, what is your definition of "perish", and do those who "perish" have any say in it?

Believe it or not you ARE being 'led' not to fall headlong into 'christian sectarianism.'

That is NOT a bad leading fwiw, and I certainly wouldn't blame ANYONE for not wanting to participate in those matters. There are in fact many believers who DO NOT and WILL NOT participate in such things on the basis of faith, which has to transcend such pettiness, at least for SOME.

If we can't come away with 'faith' that allows us to love all our neighbors as ourselves, it would really seem quite worthless.

To condemn each others on the basis of sects gamesmanship is a PITIFUL game that I would not wish upon ANY person.

May God Alone lead you where HE meets YOU. He WILL meet you on your own ground, as He has with many of us.

Carry on!

enjoy!

smaller

 

[mlqurgw]

Someone mentioned before um....what was it.....5 points of Calvinism?

Can a Calvanist please just post those 5 points and a brief overview of what they mean, just so I can see what the basic teachings are.

Thanks.

Doc.

Comparison of Calvinism and Arminianism There you go.

 

[mlqurgw]

I am not sure why you feel like that. I never meant to make you feel like that. I am simply trying to grasp where you are coming from in your line of thinking. I do not believe it is foolish to answer questions. I have no point other than what I have been stating all along. The question I ask is really a simple one. If there is some vagueness about it, I am unaware of it. In fact, I would venture to say that it is a simple yes or no question.

Has He ever rejected any who's name has been written in the book of life? Or in other words, to help clarify the question if there is any uncertainty; Has He ever blotted out anyones name who has been written in the book of life?

So you have no passage that you want to spring on me? If I say that He has never rejected any whose names are written in the Lamb's book of Life, which is what I would say if I didn't suspect a trap, what would your answer be? Would you then quote Rev. 3:5 or 22:19?

 

[mlqurgw]

The following argument “A†is often advanced to justify preaching the gospel in a world where some have been pre-destined by God unto ultimate salvation (in the strong “determinative†sense, not in the “pre-destined in virtue of foreknown sense):

1. Some people are pre-destined to salvation;

2. We do not know who has been pre-destined to salvation;

3. We know that even those who have been pre-destined must hear the gospel in order for that salvation to be actualized;

4. Therefore we need to preach the gospel to all people.

Here is why A fails. Let's speculate about a person "Fred" who has been pre-destined by God unto salvation. By the very meaning of the concept of pre-destination, there is nothing that human beings can do (or fail to do) that will cause Fred to not end up in Heaven.

But note term 3 of A - even the pre-destined must hear the gospel in order to be ultimately saved. There are two possibilities in respect to term 3:

a. God has not pre-destined that someone will tell Fred the gospel;
b. God has pre-destined that someone will tell Fred the gospel.

Consider (a). If God has not pre-destined someone to tell Fred the gospel, then the possibility exists that no one will tell Fred the gospel. But this cannot be, since we know Fred is pre-destined to salvation and that he must hear the gospel to have that destiny actualized.

Now consider (b). If God has pre-destined someone to tell Fred the gospel, then there is no necessity to instruct us to tell the gospel - the gospel will most certainly be told to Fred. No one needs to be instructed to perform an action that has been pre-destined to occur. Does God "tell" somebody to tell the apple to fall to ground at 32 feet per second per second? Probably not, precisely because the apple is "pre-destined" to fall at that rate through the action of the laws of physics.

This argument that we still need to tell pre-destined people the gospel therefore fails.

The fallacy of your rebuttal is that you presume that God has not ordained the means to His ends. God normally works through means. He can do anything He desires but His desire is to work through the preaching of the Gospel. He has ordained the means by which He calls His elect as much as He has ordained whom the elect are. As far as your argument to not needing to be instructed to perform an action because it is predestined is once more a false assumption for the same reason. Predestination entails the means as well as the ends. All who are the elect of God will hear the Gospel by a preacher because God has ordained both the elect and the preacher. You present a false dilemma.

 

[mlqurgw]

Another TOTAL religious fallacy.

As to your 'construction life' I also have spent my entire life in construction and NEVER ONCE in several thousand projects was there A PERFECT FOUNDATION by ANYONE.

No there wasn't because they were built by man. You, I hope not on purpose, ignored the fact that I was using an analogy. But the truth of the analogy stands. Perhaps someone who is better at math than I can figure the degree to which a plumb line 1?4 inch off in 50 feet extends or perhaps you can grasp the fact that 1/4 inch out of square remains out of square throughout the building unless you twist it.

One can not CHANGE our FOUNDATION in Christ.

He IS Perfect. We cannot 'screw' that up or 'correct' that foundation.

IF one wants to 'build upon' Christ they begin with A PERFECT FOUNDATION that is not of 'us.'

Many a 'church' believes that they MUST have PERFECT DOCTRINE. That too is A RELIGIOUS FALLACY and NOT POSSIBLE. There are NO PERFECT DOCTRINES. Such things do not exist. These are ALL constructs of MAN with PARTIAL SIGHT.

Churches have been 'correcting' and 'improving' their doctrines perpetually, SHOWING that they were NOT PERFECT to begin with.

No doctrine can CONVEY the THINGS OF GOD which are ETERNAL and MUST originate from HIM.

enjoy!

smaller

The whole purpose of my post was to show that if you are wrong on the foundation of Christ, which all are who hold to universal redemption, then all you build on that foundation is wrong.

 

[HisSheep]

God normally works through means. He can do anything He desires but His desire is to work through the preaching of the Gospel. He has ordained the means by which He calls His elect as much as He has ordained whom the elect are. As far as your argument to not needing to be instructed to perform an action because it is predestined is once more a false assumption for the same reason. Predestination entails the means as well as the ends. All who are the elect of God will hear the Gospel by a preacher because God has ordained both the elect and the preacher. You present a false dilemma.

Amen! Well said! This truth is reflected in Ephesians 2:10. We are saved to do good works! The works were predestined too!

For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago. (Eph 2:10 NLT)

Furthermore, when we do good works, it is not really us, but God doing the work through us. We are simply His instruments. Think of all the times God has acted through an instrument... It is much easier to think of the few times He didn't...

As a by product of our being His chosen instruments, we are also matured. This prepares us for service in the Kingdom. It helps to make us like Jesus, the first among many brothers.

-HisSheep

 

[francisdesales]

Amen! Well said! This truth is reflected in Ephesians 2:10. We are saved to do good works! The works were predestined too!

For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago. (Eph 2:10 NLT)

Furthermore, when we do good works, it is not really us, but God doing the work through us. We are simply His instruments. Think of all the times God has acted through an instrument... It is much easier to think of the few times He didn't...

This is not totally correct, because it forgets that we are IMMERSED in Christ. We BECOME part of Christ. Thus, when God is working "through" us, we certainly ARE part of that work, that action. We are not puppets, that is not how a Loving God operates and manifests Himself to the world. The Church IS the Body of Christ - quite literally, not just some convenient metaphor. Thus, when I do something, it is I and Christ in me doing it. There is no reason to see ourselves as ONLY instruments. We are PARTICIPANTS.

Regards

 

[smaller]

No there wasn't because they were built by man. You, I hope not on purpose, ignored the fact that I was using an analogy. But the truth of the analogy stands. Perhaps someone who is better at math than I can figure the degree to which a plumb line 1?4 inch off in 50 feet extends or perhaps you can grasp the fact that 1/4 inch out of square remains out of square throughout the building unless you twist it.

Repeat. Jesus Christ IS our Foundation.

There are no FLAWS or IMPERFECTIONS in Him.

That can NOT be said about ANY other man or set of men OR MENS DOCTRINES. ALL DOCTRINE by the nature of PARTIAL SIGHT cannot POSSIBLY be PERFECT as attested to by Paul in 1 Cor. 13.

Your analogy does not compute or fit and it is totally ridiculous to claim that yours or any other SECT has PERFECT doctrines.

The whole purpose of my post was to show that if you are wrong on the foundation of Christ, which all are who hold to universal redemption, then all you build on that foundation is wrong.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

You did NOT construct Jesus Christ. What are you thinking?

And BTW, your buddy 'his[supposed]sheep' DECLINED or MISSED this request so I'll put it up to you (and hisheep) again for your response of agreement or disagreement with sbg57's statement as quoted here:

False Christ's

The False Christs here means, the different denominations saying we serve and witness of the True Christ. Also the false Christ, is that Christ that is presented that He loved of all of humanity, and died for all of humanity without exception, to give them a chance at getting saved.

Thats a False Christ. If anyone believes that lie, that Christ died for everyones sins in the world without exception, you have been deceived, and unless God gives you repentance, you are on your way to hell, forever !

Yea, Nay or waffle?

Either or both of you please.

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[mlqurgw]

Repeat. Jesus Christ IS our Foundation.

There are no FLAWS or IMPERFECTIONS in Him.

That can NOT be said about ANY other man or set of men OR MENS DOCTRINES. ALL DOCTRINE by the nature of PARTIAL SIGHT cannot POSSIBLY be PERFECT as attested to by Paul in 1 Cor. 13.

Your analogy does not compute or fit and it is totally ridiculous to claim that yours or any other SECT has PERFECT doctrines.



Wash, rinse, repeat.

You did NOT construct Jesus Christ. What are you thinking?

And BTW, your buddy 'his[supposed]sheep' DECLINED or MISSED this request so I'll put it up to you (and hisheep) again for your response of agreement or disagreement with sbg57's statement as quoted here:




Yea, Nay or waffle?

Either or both of you please.

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First you presume to know what I believe and therefore read into what I have written what you suppose. You are putting words in my mouth and they do not fit. I suggest that you get off of your high horse and actually read what is written instead of supplying what you imagine is being said. I will simply ask you why I should waste my time trying to have a conversation with you as you seem to already know what I believe even though I am new here. Having read several of your posts you seem to have a knack for putting your spin on what others say without regard to what they actually are saying.

 

[smaller]

First you presume to know what I believe and therefore read into what I have written what you suppose. You are putting words in my mouth and they do not fit. I suggest that you get off of your high horse and actually read what is written instead of supplying what you imagine is being said.

By all means tell me that you considered YOUR DOCTRINES to be 'the perfect foundation.'

IF NOT, then we both AGREE that Jesus IS The Perfect Foundation that we ALL build upon and NONE of us 'built Him.'

I will simply ask you why I should waste my time trying to have a conversation with you as you seem to already know what I believe even though I am new here.

The only obvious thing I've seen is that you don't want to answer if you AGREE or DISAGREE with the statement by SBG57 IN MY LAST POST.

I certainly understand that you do not seem to be FORTHRIGHT in answering and instead AVOIDED it just as HIS SHEEP did.

It will be there for you and hissheep anytime you want to DISPLAY your POSITION.

enjoy!

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[mlqurgw]

This is not totally correct, because it forgets that we are IMMERSED in Christ. We BECOME part of Christ. Thus, when God is working "through" us, we certainly ARE part of that work, that action. We are not puppets, that is not how a Loving God operates and manifests Himself to the world. The Church IS the Body of Christ - quite literally, not just some convenient metaphor. Thus, when I do something, it is I and Christ in me doing it. There is no reason to see ourselves as ONLY instruments. We are PARTICIPANTS.

Regards

I don't think any are denying the fact that we are willing participants in whatever God does through us. And of course the old robot argument is just that old and stale. God doesn't need to make us robots for He controls every circumstance and influence that shapes our decisions and thoughts. We do exactly as we want exactly according to His purpose and sovereign control.