The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[smaller]

So, unless one was chosen by God in Christ, they are not a Sheep, thats how you become one.

Why you ask ? Do you wanna be one ? Its not in your power to do that..

And it is likewise NOT in 'your power' to determine who is or is not a sheep.

Thank GOD!

 

[Deavonreye]

So, unless one was chosen by God in Christ, they are not a Sheep, thats how you become one.

Why you ask ? Do you wanna be one ? Its not in your power to do that..

So how does one know they are "chosen". Can someone think themselves to be "chosen", yet never were? Can one be "chosesn" against their will?

What happens to those who were NOT "chosen"?

Thanks for answering these.

 

[savedbygrace57]

devon:

So how does one know they are "chosen".

God reveals that to them by giving them faith to believe the Truth 2 thess 2:

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Can someone think themselves to be "chosen", yet never were?

Yes, but they never believed the Truth.

What happens to those who were NOT "chosen"?

They perish in their sins..

 

[savedbygrace57]

And it is likewise NOT in 'your power' to determine who is or is not a sheep.

Thank GOD!

I never said it was, not once. Another slanderous misrepresentation.

 

[smaller]

I never said it was, not once. Another slanderous misrepresentation.

IF it is NOT in your determination for OTHERS, then it is also LIKEWISE not in your determination for your SELF.

You could very well be just another common tare for all we know by your own doctrines.

s

 

[savedbygrace57]

smaller:

IF it is NOT in your determination for OTHERS, then it is also LIKEWISE not in your determination for your SELF.

I never said it was, not once. Another slanderous misrepresentation.

 

[Drew]

Drew, again, we are NOT allowed to discuss these things and NO, I will not and do not agree, so it is pointless to discuss your views. You'll just have to find someone else to dialog on that matter with you.

So rather than seeking to disrupt my posts, I'd suggest you get somebody else to disagree with you please.

Thanks in advance.

smaller

First of all, I have no knowledge that interaction between us is prohibited.

Second, even if this were true, you should not therefore expect to allow your views to go unchallenged.

 

[smaller]

First of all, I have no knowledge that interaction between us is prohibited.

And once again Drew, we have had a full discourse on these matters. I have no need to continue in that dialog and have no need of your impositions, emphasis, ZERO need. Go find someone else to disagree with you.

Second, even if this were true, you should not therefore expect to allow your views to go unchallenged.

IF you were to challenge anything I see, I would only PRAY that it is not just another repeated bleating about JEWS. That meausure IS A DEAD HORSE for me no matter how many times you want to impose it.

So please and again, MOVE ON and go find someone ELSE to disagree with you.

s

 

[smaller]

smaller:

I never said it was, not once. Another slanderous misrepresentation.

So you do acknowledge that you DO NOT KNOW for a fact that you are in fact A SHEEP?

Please rush to the enter button on that fact if you would?

thanks...

s

 

[Drew]

Ezekiel 34:
11“‘For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep.

You seem to think that this text supports the notion that there are specific individuals who are "pre-destined" to ultimate salvation. However, context shows that this is a teaching about Israel:

The word of the LORD came to me: “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to you shepherds of Israel who only take care of yourselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock? You eat the curds, clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you do not take care of the flock. You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them. “‘Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them. “‘For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them.

So the "sheep" here are the people of Israel. Now I grant you that the category of Israel is a very ambiguous one in the Bible - sometimes the term denotes the ethnic Jews, other times (in the New Testament) Paul uses the term to denote the church.

Either way, there is an entire chunk of argumentation that you still need to make to sustain your view - you need to make the case that this "Israel" here in Ezekiel 34 is specifically constituted by people pre-destined to be ultimately in the family of God. You cannot simply assume this, especially since other alternatives present themselves, not least that "His sheep" are those people, Jew or Gentile, who have freely accepted God's gift of grace.

I see nothing in this text which pins down "the sheep of Israel" as being the set of all persons pre-destined to ultimate salvation.

 

[Drew]

So please and again, MOVE ON and go find someone ELSE to disagree with you.

Sorry - you do not have the right to be immunized from challenges to your position.

 

[smaller]

Sorry - you do not have the right to be immunized from challenges to your position.

You've made your attempts to impose. I disagree. There it ends.

Find someone else to buy your stories. I won't and don't.

That simple.

s

 

[Drew]

IF you were to challenge anything I see, I would only PRAY that it is not just another repeated bleating about JEWS.

This outrageous lie has been reported. You should not be allowed to freely suggest that I am anti-semitic when moderators have repeatedly asserted that such accusations have no basis in fact.

 

[Vic C.]

First of all, I have no knowledge that interaction between us is prohibited.

Second, even if this were true, you should not therefore expect to allow your views to go unchallenged.

You are correct Drew. All we asked of the two of you was that you not go off in tangents (hijack) in topics. We never disallowed the two of you from discussions. But unfortunately discussions turn into debates and emotions well up. When emotions take center stage in posts, the Staff will eventually intervene.

Smaller, we actually encouraged the two of you to join in a 1 on 1 debate.

 

[Deavonreye]

devon:

God reveals that to them by giving them faith to believe the Truth 2 thess 2:

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Yes, but they never believed the Truth.

They perish in their sins..

Can someone believe as 2 thess 2:13 states, yet still not be "chosen"?

Also, you missed the question I asked about whether it was possible for someone to be "chosen", yet not desire to be? In other words, one who refuses to believe, based on no evidence, . . . and sincerely so, . . . yet is "chosen" anyway, perhaps the REAL truth discovered down the road?

As for those NOT "chosen", what is your understanding of "perish"?

 

[HisSheep]

You be the Judge, how can one Preach the Gospel of the Grace of God, and omit the doctrine of the election of Grace and predestination ? Paul did not.

I have agreed with everything you’ve said in this thread. I don’t really think we differ on this point either. I agree with you in your post #153 of this thread.

I was answering strangeloves question as I took him to mean it. There are some strange dichotomies in Christianity. We are exhorted to flee from evil while we are told that we are protected from it. We are told to make our election sure and at the same time told that it is guaranteed. We are told to seek God, and told that no one seeks…

Likewise we are to invite everyone to the cross – even though only some are enabled to do so. All I meant was that you don’t say to a stranger, “Hey, Pal, have you considered that God may or may not save you?â€

I think you see what I mean… One could leave the predestination firmly in place and say something like, “Have you considered that God has a plan for you?â€

Typically, I want people to know that there is a God, that they are sinners, and that there is one way to become reconciled with God: Jesus.

Predestination is a tricky subject. Man does have a free will, and there is a very real decision to be made by man. The Calvinist understands this; he just recognizes that God affects the will of man to choose according to God’s will. Until acted upon by God, man will consistently choose his own way. A bad way. A way that leads to death.

God must intervene merely to get our attention off ourselves. From this point on, man’s will should become more and more like the will of Jesus, in gratitude and voluntary submission, until upon our resurrection, we will be like Him.

-HisSheep

 

[savedbygrace57]

hissheep:

All I meant was that you don’t say to a stranger, “Hey, Pal, have you considered that God may or may not save you?”

No, but you tell the Truth about what Jesus done, and whom He done it for, why He did it, and what it accomplished.

Predestination is a tricky subject.

Is that what you wanna label part of the Gospel of Gods Grace ?

 

[Drew]

Micah 2:12
"I will surely gather all of you, O Jacob; I will surely bring together the remnant of Israel. I will bring them together like sheep in a pen, like a flock in its pasture; the place will throng with people.

Jeremiah 23
3 “I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number. 4 I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing,†declares the LORD.

Jesus is the shepherd who is doing the gathering. He knows who the sheep are.

I see no necessity to interpreting these texts in a manner that identifies the "sheep" with the pre-destined saved. Yes, there is this category of "true sheep". Yes, Jesus is the true shepherd. And yes, Jesus knows his true sheep.

But all of this is consistent with the notion that the true sheep are a set of persons whose status as such has been determined by means other than pre-destination.

 

[savedbygrace57]

deave:

Can someone believe as 2 thess 2:13 states, yet still not be "chosen"?

No, That believing is a result of being sanctified by the Spirit, regeneration..

 

[smaller]

I have agreed with everything you’ve said in this thread.

Then you agree with this as well?

Please feel free to express your AGREEMENT with sbg57 on THIS ONE:

False Christ's

The False Christs here means, the different denominations saying we serve and witness of the True Christ. Also the false Christ, is that Christ that is presented that He loved of all of humanity, and died for all of humanity without exception, to give them a chance at getting saved.

Thats a False Christ. If anyone believes that lie, that Christ died for everyones sins in the world without exception, you have been deceived, and unless God gives you repentance, you are on your way to hell, forever !

?!

s