The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[savedbygrace57]

strange:

Show me where Paul states that a specific group are predestined to be God's sheep.

Uh, Show me where Paul states that a specific group is not to be predestinated to be Gods Sheep ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

smaller:

Calvinists and Reformed openly believe and promote that GOD does NOT love the predestined people that are supposedly DAMNED by God to burn alive forever.

but...they admittedly DO NOT KNOW who these people may be

They do not need to know, God knows, thats good enough. God will send His message of Good news to those He loves, so your statement here is meaningless.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Exactly. Thanks bud.

We are lead to do our OWN repentance through the kindness of God, as displayed in his Word.

It says nothing about being lead to do your own repentance, cant you read ?

 

[smaller]

smaller:
They do not need to know, God knows, thats good enough. God will send His message of Good news to those He loves, so your statement here is meaningless.

I am very much an adherent to PREDESTINATION and ELECTION.

No man can REPENT or BELIEVE unless GOD is within their heart to produce THOSE FRUITS. He IS the 'originator.'

That assuredly does NOT mean that you or any other sect of determinism has nailed down this matter to perfection.

Obviously YOUR DOCTRINE has produced HATRED to those whom YOU believe are predestined to HELL, which means EVERYONE who does not believe LIKE YOU.

Well, here's the REALITY of what you have.

You do not HAVE PERFECT DOCTRINE. Calvin was not perfect to make such determinations and NEITHER are YOU.

You too HAVE SIN and DO goatworks because of that fact.

And even worse, which you have openly demonstrated, is you have in your delusions of PERFECT DOCTRINE ascended the THRONE of ETERNAL JUDGMENT to others, BELIEVERS no less! You have OPENLY CONDEMNED everyone who does not BELIEVE LIKE YOU to ETERNAL HELL.

That is the produce of MEGALOMANIA and surely not a produce of GOD.

You are however welcome to THINK you sit in that SEAT. That is in fact A DELUSION of massively deceived proportions.

Sorry.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[smaller]

Huh? Yeah I read the verse and 'reflected' what it meant to me. Lolz, I thought we were actually on the same team for a second there....a foolish thought.

Of course everything originates from God. But that does'nt negate our invlovment in the process.

A butcher can sell you a slab of meat but you make the Spag Bol. at home. Would you say you bought Spag Bol. from the butcher? No.

Every 'freewill' proponent utterly FAILS to discern WHY other people can NOT believe. They 'blame it' on THE WILL OF MAN.

That is obviously and openly NOT the case.

People do NOT believe because they are SLAVES of the 'god of this world' who BLINDS THEIR MINDS inclusive of THEIR WILLS. And most of them are not AWARE that they are thusly BLINDED in their MINDS.

Don't you KNOW that you were once such A SLAVE a PURCHASED by GOD?

You did NOT purchase YOURSELF.

Sorry.

enjoy!

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[Strangelove]

Uh, Show me where Paul states that a specific group is not to be predestinated to be Gods Sheep ?

Nah. You show me where it says they are.

 

[Strangelove]

It says nothing about being lead to do your own repentance, cant you read ?

NO!! I can't read! drat...you found me out.

 

[Strangelove]

Every 'freewill' proponent utterly FAILS to discern WHY other people can NOT believe. They 'blame it' on THE WILL OF MAN.

Yeah...darn those freewill proponents. Spreading freewill everywhere like everyones entitled to it or somethin'!!

String 'em up I say!

 

[smaller]

Yeah...darn those freewill proponents. Spreading freewill everywhere like everyones entitled to it or somethin'!!

String 'em up I say!

Nah, it's just a basic failure to come to grips with scriptural facts.

Here are the scriptural facts for the unbeliever. You are welcome to DENY that this is a fact. I can't, because IT'S THE TRUTH:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

That may look to you as a picture of FREE. I can not honestly say that is the case. There is obviously MORE than just the 'will' of MAN involved there.

Here is the picture of YOU and I (supposedly) prior to belief as well:

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

These are SPIRITUAL matters. It is quite pointless to BLAME blinded slaves. ALL people are born into this world BOUND with SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS that is caused by the THE SPIRIT OF DISOBEDIENCE. The GOSPEL seems FOOLISH to them because they are in fact CONTROLLED by the 'god of this world' who MOCKS the GOSPEL in their hearts and KEEPS his slaves blinded.

You or any other person can take 'credit' for freeing yourself. I again honestly can not see that as a fact. There is obviously MORE than just the 'slave' that is involved.

When I witness, I KNOW that I am dealing with MORE than just the 'slave.' I am also CONFRONTING a 'very real enemy' of the GOSPEL that can NOT be seen or perceived except by THE SPIRIT that is in me to make such witness.

In order to be a TRUTHFUL witness, one must recognize 'our' real ENEMIES, knowing that WE TOO once were thusly blinded.

enjoy!

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[mondar]

Your serious, arnt you??? Do you believe that those who are in Christ have never been spiritually dead???

That is a pretty straight forward yes or no question. Although you really have already answered it by the above post. But I would still like an answer.

I believe we were (past tense) spiritually dead, but once we are "in Christ" we are no longer spiritually dead. We are raised by his resurrection.

 

[mondar]

First off I appreciate your response. I do think this is a very important discussion.

Secondly I would love to hear your thoughts on the other questions I have asked you.

Thirdly, Hebrews 6:4 tells us that they "shared" in the Holy Spirit. Shared does not imply a simple knowledge of, it imply's the consuming of.

shared - metochos

1) sharing in, partaking
2) a partner (in a work, office, dignity)

There is no denying that this passage speaks of those whom the Holy Spirit has been a "part" of.

1Cr 10:21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons

Yes, those that fell away shared in the Holy Spirit. When they saw the changed lives, and probably even supernatural events, they shared with the rest of the congregation the power of the Holy Spirit. I dont see this language as suggesting that they experienced regeneration, the new nature, or any of the saving ministries of the HS.

Concerning Hebrews 6......
*** It is noticeable that in verses 4-5 the words have no parallel in the NT in referring to salvation. The NT usually uses the word "pistos" (faith or believe). Phrases as "once enlightened" are no where used in the NT speaking of salvation. I think these Hebrew Christians understood salvation, saw the power of salvation,

*** I think verse 9 is the hinge on which the text swings. Verse 9 moves us from the apostates who experienced and observed the ministries of the HS among the brethren, to the actual believer. The works of the apostates (even when in their former assembly) is described in verse 8. Their works brought forth only thorns and thistles. They never had the works that accompany salvation. It is not that they fell from the faith and the works that flow forth from faith, but their works were always thorns and thistles. Not so with the believer.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:
The word "salvation" is not used until here. While the former apostates had some part in the ministries of the HS because they were among the brethren, they had not experienced "salvation" and had never done the works that "accompany salvation."

 

[Deavonreye]

savedbygrace57, . . . how does one become "a sheep"?

 

[Mike]

Folks, there are clear instances of members attacking the person here as opposed to the belief. Here is a reminder. Think before you hit "submit reply". Have you taken shots at your brother? If you feel you have, go back and edit. This doesn't have to result in this thread being locked and warnings being issued, but it might.

This doesn't need to be a division among the faithful. And keep in mind, people outside the faith are watching our behavior among ourselves.

Thank you.

 

[Drew]

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

That may look to you as a picture of FREE. I can not honestly say that is the case. There is obviously MORE than just the 'will' of MAN involved there.

Here is the picture of YOU and I (supposedly) prior to belief as well:

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

I think you are going beyond what the writers of these statements intended if you claim that such statements demonstrate we have no free will (in our fallen state).

I see no reason why these statements cannot refer to a state of affairs where mankind is to some degree subject to these other forces.

Consider a modern analogy. One might assert that "Fred" has been "blinded" by his infatuation with his new girlfriend and that he is now subject to her every whim and fancy. Is this really an assertion that Fred has no free will? No, it is not. It is a fanciful way of saying that Fred is, to some degree, subject to the influences of his new girlfriend - such a characterization as we have of Fred (above) would not, in our culture, be taken as equivalent to a claim that Fred has no free will.

I suspect that there is a lot of this kind of "over-reach" coming from those who would deny a measure of free will in the "lost". Yes, the Bible uses language suggesting that they are slavishly obedient to dark forces, including, of course, their own fallen nature. But, and this is really complex issue of how language is properly interpreted, I suggest that such a picture does not justify a conclusion that the lost are entirely bereft of a measure of self-determining free will.

 

[smaller]

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE]
I think you are going beyond what the writers of these statements intended if you claim that such statements demonstrate we have no free will (in our fallen state).

I see no reason why these statements cannot refer to a state of affairs where mankind is to some degree subject to these other forces.

Consider a modern analogy. One might assert that "Fred" has been "blinded" by his infatuation with his new girlfriend and that he is now subject to her every whim and fancy. Is this really an assertion that Fred has no free will? No, it is not. It is a fanciful way of saying that Fred is, to some degree, subject to the influences of his new girlfriend - such a characterization as we have of Fred (above) would not, in our culture, be taken as equivalent to a claim that Fred has no free will.

I suspect that there is a lot of this kind of "over-reach" coming from those who would deny a measure of free will in the "lost". Yes, the Bible uses language suggesting that they are slavishly obedient to dark forces, including, of course, their own fallen nature. But, and this is really complex issue of how language is properly interpreted, I suggest that such a picture does not justify a conclusion that the lost are entirely bereft of a measure of self-determining free will.

Sorry Drew. The mods here do not allow us to communicate.

You are welcome to read my posts and to judge the facts therein, which I believe ARE factual regardless as noted therein.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Drew]

Romans 2:
4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

smaller, this statement does not really make the case that there is a degree of human free will involved in the act of repentance. The statement is open to a reading where there is indeed a degree of free will involved in the act of repentance.

In fact, this statement comes from a chapter where Paul is lecturing a "back-slidden" Jew. The entire chapter has the strong flavour of a warning. Now if this back-slidden person is really an automaton, entirely incapable of responding to such a warning, then there hardly seems to be any point in issuing the warning in the first place.

 

[Drew]

But I will answer your assertion that we have no reason to preach the Gospel. We preach the Gospel to all for the following reasons: 1. We don't know who the elect are in this world since they don't carry a sign or have a tattoo saying that they are elect.

The following argument “A†is often advanced to justify preaching the gospel in a world where some have been pre-destined by God unto ultimate salvation (in the strong “determinative†sense, not in the “pre-destined in virtue of foreknown sense):

1. Some people are pre-destined to salvation;

2. We do not know who has been pre-destined to salvation;

3. We know that even those who have been pre-destined must hear the gospel in order for that salvation to be actualized;

4. Therefore we need to preach the gospel to all people.

Here is why A fails. Let's speculate about a person "Fred" who has been pre-destined by God unto salvation. By the very meaning of the concept of pre-destination, there is nothing that human beings can do (or fail to do) that will cause Fred to not end up in Heaven.

But note term 3 of A - even the pre-destined must hear the gospel in order to be ultimately saved. There are two possibilities in respect to term 3:

a. God has not pre-destined that someone will tell Fred the gospel;
b. God has pre-destined that someone will tell Fred the gospel.

Consider (a). If God has not pre-destined someone to tell Fred the gospel, then the possibility exists that no one will tell Fred the gospel. But this cannot be, since we know Fred is pre-destined to salvation and that he must hear the gospel to have that destiny actualized.

Now consider (b). If God has pre-destined someone to tell Fred the gospel, then there is no necessity to instruct us to tell the gospel - the gospel will most certainly be told to Fred. No one needs to be instructed to perform an action that has been pre-destined to occur. Does God "tell" somebody to tell the apple to fall to ground at 32 feet per second per second? Probably not, precisely because the apple is "pre-destined" to fall at that rate through the action of the laws of physics.

This argument that we still need to tell pre-destined people the gospel therefore fails.

 

[smaller]

smaller, this statement does not really make the case that there is a degree of human free will involved in the act of repentance. The statement is open to a reading where there is indeed a degree of free will involved in the act of repentance.

In fact, this statement comes from a chapter where Paul is lecturing a "back-slidden" Jew. The entire chapter has the strong flavour of a warning. Now if this back-slidden person is really an automaton, entirely incapable of responding to such a warning, then there hardly seems to be any point in issuing the warning in the first place.

Drew, again, we are NOT allowed to discuss these things and NO, I will not and do not agree, so it is pointless to discuss your views. You'll just have to find someone else to dialog on that matter with you.

So rather than seeking to disrupt my posts, I'd suggest you get somebody else to disagree with you please.

Thanks in advance.

smaller

 

[HisSheep]

Show me where Paul states that a specific group are predestined to be God's sheep.

Your terminology is a bit off here: There is a group who are His sheep and God is gathering those sheep. Make no mistake about it:

Ezekiel 34:
11“‘For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep.

This is a constant theme in the OT… The shepherd gathering the sheep…

Micah 2:12
"I will surely gather all of you, O Jacob; I will surely bring together the remnant of Israel. I will bring them together like sheep in a pen, like a flock in its pasture; the place will throng with people.

Jeremiah 23
3 “I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number. 4 I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing,†declares the LORD.

Jesus is the shepherd who is doing the gathering. He knows who the sheep are. The Jews knew what claim He was making when He said:

John 10:14
"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—

What’s more, Gentiles are included as well:

Isaiah 56:

8 The Sovereign LORD declares—
he who gathers the exiles of Israel:
“I will gather still others to them
besides those already gathered.â€

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

If you believe that the New Covenant is this “gathering of sheep†that the OT refers to, then this is where the sheep analogy comes from. The sheep are the invisible church; those already gathered and those to be gathered. All of them known to God from the beginning.

Paul doesn’t mention the “sheep†thing, to my knowledge. But he does not mince words about foreknowledge and predestination. Don’t make me list all the predestination verses written by Paul and Peter.

Clearly, God chooses His people. He always has. So, if you are in Christ, it is all because of God.

1Corrinthians 1:30
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

You did nothing to save yourself - this is so all glory goes to God. God simply gave you faith and He doesn’t do that for everyone. It is not that you deserve it either – you don’t. That’s what grace is - He saved you and you did nothing to deserve it or earn it.

What is the difference between you and some un-saved guy? What is the difference between someone in Hell and someone in Heaven? Is it their own righteousness that made the difference? Was it their own sound decision?

-HisSheep

 

[savedbygrace57]

savedbygrace57, . . . how does one become "a sheep"?

ps 100:

3Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

We are His People[Sheep] by Election in Christ before the world began !

eph 1:

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

So, unless one was chosen by God in Christ, they are not a Sheep, thats how you become one.

Why you ask ? Do you wanna be one ? Its not in your power to do that..