The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[savedbygrace57]

strange:

You're asking for a word that doesnt exist in the Bible.

But yet, the thought of what that word means is taught to exist in the bible, yet as you say, that word does not exist, so why does its implications exist ?

I have read through the most evangelistic book in the bible, the book of acts, and not once is it stated that Christ died for all men without exception, in fact, its never stated that God loved anyone in that book. The only books we find the Love of God having been revealed to people, or His death having been specifically for people, are those who had believed.

There is no evidence in scripture that supports Christ died for any that do not believe in Him.

 

[savedbygrace57]

strange:

He gave ALL men the opportunity to come to faith through the Gospels.

False, those Christ died for come to Faith, His death draws them to come to Him, which means come in Faith. Jn 12:

32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Matt 11 28 promises that those who come unto Him He gives rest :

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

So the coming means coming in Faith, coming and believing here are the same.

Because Hebrews says Heb 11:

6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that

So coming and Faith are adjoined to one another.

All that the Father giveth shall come [ Faith] unto me Jn 6:


37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

So coming is believing, the promise of everlasting security and not being cast out here is to he that cometh, hence cometh and believeth are the same.

And again Jesus death [ being lifted up] promises that it will draw [ cause to come] to Him.

And of course, the All men is limited to those who it causes to come.

There is absolutely no such thing in scripture of the death of Christ giving all men without exception a opportunity to come, thats false teaching and robs Christ death and blood of its efficaciousness !

 

[Nathan]

strange:



But yet, the thought of what that word means is taught to exist in the bible, yet as you say, that word does not exist, so why does its implications exist ?

I have read through the most evangelistic book in the bible, the book of acts, and not once is it stated that Christ died for all men without exception, in fact, its never stated that God loved anyone in that book. The only books we find the Love of God having been revealed to people, or His death having been specifically for people, are those who had believed.

There is no evidence in scripture that supports Christ died for any that do not believe in Him.

How does one get their name written in the Lambs Book of life? Does all man have eternal life when they come into this world?

 

[savedbygrace57]

nath:

How does one get their name written in the Lambs Book of life?

God's will

 

[smaller]

The 'myth' of 'confession' that Jesus Is Lord:

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Luke 4:41
And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

Mark 3:11
And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.
Makes the 'confession' methodology vastly more interesting, and vastly more dubious.

There are MANY TARES sitting in the pews. His Words will avail such NADA..ZILCH.

Some, even DEMANDING THE TRUTH from THE TRUTH did NOT receive an answer from Him because He said THEY WILL NOT BELIEVE. He knew IN ADVANCE they would not and could not.

Luke 22:67
Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe

s

 

[Strangelove]

strange:

But yet, the thought of what that word means is taught to exist in the bible, yet as you say, that word does not exist, so why does its implications exist?

[Because the word ALL implies everyone without exception!]

I have read through the most evangelistic book in the bible, the book of acts, and not once is it stated that Christ died for all men without exception,[**groan**] in fact, its never stated that God loved anyone in that book. The only books we find the Love of God having been revealed to people, or His death having been specifically for people, are those who had believed. [Exactly]

There is no evidence in scripture that supports Christ died for any that do not believe in Him.

HUH?

ANY AND ALL MEN HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BELIEVE.

All they need to do is read the Gospels and have faith.

So that means Christ died for ALL. The whole world.

3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​

If you're trying to teach us something different you are doing a terrible job of it.

Havn't you got anything else other than the 'without exception' mantra?

Is that your best shot?

 

[Strangelove]

False, those Christ died for come to Faith, His death draws them to come to Him, which means come in Faith.

Yes and what is faith?

11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of
things not seen.

Helloooooooo?! THE GOSPELS!
​

32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Matt 11 28 promises that those who come unto Him He gives rest :

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

So the coming means coming in Faith, coming and believing here are the same.

Because Hebrews says Heb 11:

6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that

So coming and Faith are adjoined to one another.

All that the Father giveth shall come [ Faith] unto me Jn 6:


37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Whatever way you look at it....it's THE GOSPELS that allow men to come unto God...believe...have faith...whatever.....the vehicle for this is the Gospel message. The evidence and substance.

Unless you got a different definition for faith thats better than my one from Hebrews 11:1?

So coming is believing, the promise of everlasting security and not being cast out here is to he that cometh, hence cometh and believeth are the same.

And again Jesus death [ being lifted up] promises that it will draw [ cause to come] to Him.

And of course, the All men is limited to those who it causes to come.

So he died for all men but of those ALL men only some will hear the Gospel message and believe. All have the opportunity.

Show me where in the Bible it says He died for a SPECIFIC group. Show me.

There is absolutely no such thing in scripture of the death of Christ giving all men without exception a opportunity to come, thats false teaching and robs Christ death and blood of its efficaciousness !

LOLZ! You're in a cult consisting of 1 person and all the rest of us are robbing Christ and are false teachers for saying all men can come to Christ?? Lolz! Um.....SBG it might be the time to rethink your position. This is very basic doctrine fella and you are all over the place. It's almost like some kind of Christian supremacy.

Are you a hyper-calvanist or not?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Yes and what is faith?

11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of
things not seen.​

Helloooooooo?! THE GOSPELS!​

Whatever way you look at it....it's THE GOSPELS that allow men to come unto God...believe...have faith...whatever.....the vehicle for this is the Gospel message. The evidence and substance.

Unless you got a different definition for faith thats better than my one from Hebrews 11:1?



So he died for all men but of those ALL men only some will hear the Gospel message and believe. All have the opportunity.

Show me where in the Bible it says He died for a SPECIFIC group. Show me.



LOLZ! You're in a cult consisting of 1 person and all the rest of us are robbing Christ and are false teachers for saying all men can come to Christ?? Lolz! Um.....SBG it might be the time to rethink your position. This is very basic doctrine fella and you are all over the place. It's almost like some kind of Christian supremacy.

Are you a hyper-calvanist or not?

Those Christ died for come to Faith, His death draws them to come to Him, which means come in Faith.

 

[savedbygrace57]

strange:

HUH?

ANY AND ALL MEN HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BELIEVE.

No they dont. some men cannot believe !

Jn 12:

38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

It must be given to believe on Christ name phil 1:

29For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

This contradicts your reasoning.

Are you a hyper-calvanist or not?

Not, I am a believer in the True Christ of scripture.

 

[savedbygrace57]

strange:

Show me where in the Bible it says He died for a SPECIFIC group.

I already did Jn 10:

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Thats a specific group !

 

[Nathan]

nath:

How does one get their name written in the Lambs Book of life?

God's will

Does God love and know those who's name is written in the Lambs Book of Life?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Does God love and know those who's name is written in the Lambs Book of Life?

Of course, thats why their names are in there. And their names cannot be blotted out, because Christ death for them has perfected them forever.

Heb 10:

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

So Christ offering makes it impossible for them to be anything less than Perfect before God, as long as His sacrifice has merit with God, they are perfect in His sight.

 

[Nathan]

Of course, thats why their names are in there.

All of them? Old and New Testament sheep?

 

[Nathan]

Of course, thats why their names are in there. And their names cannot be blotted out, because Christ death for them has perfected them forever.

Heb 10:

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

So Christ offering makes it impossible for them to be anything less than Perfect before God, as long as His sacrifice has merit with God, they are perfect in His sight.

You mistaken verse #14 for saying that they are completely sanctified already. The word use, hagiazō, is a verb and the Greek language tells us that it is an ongoing process.

Most other translations word it this way to better show the meaning of the word used.

NKJV
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

NIV
because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

ESV
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

 

[Sinthesis]

Jn 10:14

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.



15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

The My Sheep in vs 14, are the same as the sheep in vs 15 !

Even though what your saying is petty.

Show me the scripture that says that Christ died for all men without exception if you can..

Why thanks! I feel pretty!:muchlove

Jhn 10:14 - I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
Jhn 10:15 - As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Jhn 10:16 - And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.​

Of course Jesus knows "His sheep", but that very phrase implies there are sheep which are NOT His. Yet scripture clearly says Jesus lay down His life for "the sheep". This can only mean all sheep, both "His" and "Not His", for surely Jesus also died for the gentile sheep of John 10:16.

As for your desire to be schooled:
Who without exception is not a sinner? You?

Rom 5:6 ¶ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 - For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 - But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 - Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 - For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 - And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

1Ti 2:3 - For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 - Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 - For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 - Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Jhn 6:51 - I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Jhn 8:12 - Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Rom 5:18 - Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.​

Salvation is a free gift offered to all, though not all choose to receive it.

 

[Strangelove]

As for your desire to be schooled:
Who without exception is not a sinner? You?

Rom 5:6 ¶ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 - For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 - But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.​

Excellent point Sinth. And well made Sir.
​

 

[mlqurgw]

How is it applied? If Christ died for all mankind but His atonement isn't applied unless they believe then His blood has no meaning and actually accomplished nothing apart from man making it efficacious. That makes man his own savior. There is no logical way around that.

Eze 34:10 Thus says the Lord God, Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will require my sheep at their hand and put a stop to their feeding the sheep. No longer shall the shepherds feed themselves. I will rescue my sheep from their mouths, that they may not be food for them.


Eze 34:11 "For thus says the Lord God: Behold, I, I myself will search for my sheep and will seek them out.


Eze 34:12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock when he is among his sheep that have been scattered, so will I seek out my sheep, and I will rescue them from all places where they have been scattered on a day of clouds and thick darkness.


Eze 34:13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them into their own land. And I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the ravines, and in all the inhabited places of the country.


Eze 34:14 I will feed them with good pasture, and on the mountain heights of Israel shall be their grazing land. There they shall lie down in good grazing land, and on rich pasture they shall feed on the mountains of Israel.


Eze 34:15 I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep, and I myself will make them lie down, declares the Lord God.


Eze 34:16 I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the strayed, and I will bind up the injured, and I will strengthen the weak, and the fat and the strong I will destroy. [fn] I will feed them in justice.


Eze 34:17 "As for you, my flock, thus says the Lord God: Behold, I judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and male goats.


Eze 34:18 Is it not enough for you to feed on the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the rest of your pasture; and to drink of clear water, that you must muddy the rest of the water with your feet?


Eze 34:19 And must my sheep eat what you have trodden with your feet, and drink what you have muddied with your feet?


Eze 34:20 "Therefore, thus says the Lord God to them: Behold, I, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep.


Eze 34:21 Because you push with side and shoulder, and thrust at all the weak with your horns, till you have scattered them abroad,


Eze 34:22 I will rescue [fn] my flock; they shall no longer be a prey. And I will judge between sheep and sheep.


Eze 34:23 And I will set up over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he shall feed them: he shall feed them and be their shepherd.

Jesus Christ died for all mankind. His atonement will only be applied to those who believe.

 

[mlqurgw]

Apparently you don't know what a Hyper-Calvinist is. A Hyper-Calvinist doesn't believe in the preaching of the Gospel at all. They believe God saves His elect with or without the Gospel. Your description is a made up one by Calvinists who oppose High Calvinism. What you describe is High Calvinism not Hyper-Calvinism.

What do you mean "got it wrong". I ASKED him if he was hyper-Calvinist...I didn't state it as fact.

Like I said in my first post. I'm a beginner on this particular subject.

But does the OP fit into any or all of the following groups?:


A hyper-Calvinist is someone who either:

1. Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear, OR
2. Denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, OR
3. Denies that the gospel makes any "offer" of Christ, salvation, or mercy to the non-elect (or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal), OR
4. Denies that there is such a thing as "common grace," OR
5. Denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect.

 

[Strangelove]

Apparently you don't know what a Hyper-Calvinist is. A Hyper-Calvinist doesn't believe in the preaching of the Gospel at all. They believe God saves His elect with or without the Gospel. Your description is a made up one by Calvinists who oppose High Calvinism. What you describe is High Calvinism not Hyper-Calvinism.

Well thats what the OP is saying isn't it?

 

[Strangelove]

How is it applied? If Christ died for all mankind but His atonement isn't applied unless they believe then His blood has no meaning and actually accomplished nothing apart from man making it efficacious. That makes man his own savior. There is no logical way around that.

I've read that 10 times and it still doesn't make any sense.

Is efficacious a buzzword with the Hyper-Calvinist crowd?