I would be willing to educate you as to what a Hyper-Calvinist actually is as I once was one. The question isn't whether a word is used or not in the Bible but what the Bible says concerning the atonement of Christ. It never once speaks of His work as something that didn't actually accomplish what it was intended to do. If it was intended to save all men and all men aren't saved then it is a worthlesss and meaningless atonement. Everywhere the death of Christ is spoken of in the Scriptures it is spoken of as having accomplished exactly what it intended to accomplish. Did you read what I posted earlier?
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
Though I can't speak for him I don't believe that is what he is saying. Your description of a Hyper-Calvinist doesn't fit a true Hyper-Calvinist. He might well be a High Calvinist as I am. There is a world of difference.
How does it not make sense? Does the blood of The Son of God have no power to save unless the sinner gives it power by his accepting it? If the blood of Christ isn't applied to the sinner until he does something then it isn;t the blood that saves but the something the sinner does. Efficacious is a word commonly used among theologans. Perhaps you ought to read some of them.
S
Strangelove
Guest
Read this thread and tell me if he's hyper:
http://www.christianforums.net/f17/how-do-true-believers-come-believe-31426/
I promise that I will later. I have to go vote now.
S
Strangelove
Guest
I still don't get what you mean. The sinner reads the Gospels and comes to have faith in Christ. Without the blood of Christ we wouldn't have the Gospels. So the blood of Christ saves through the Gospel message. Jesus is the Word made flesh.
I think reading theologans is what makes people like hyper-calvanists so confused TBH.
Nathan
Member
It is applied through faith. No, mankind does not make it efficacious, it is efficacious regardless of belief or unbelief.
efficacious - adjective
capable of having the desired result or effect;
He blood is quite capable. In fact, it is available to those who would receive it.
2Ti 3:15 "...from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus."
Jam 1:21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
One has to look no further than the parable of the sower to get a grasp on this 'implanting' of the word. And one has to look no further than the parable of the sower to see the 'lack of regard' of the implanting of the word.
Man cannot be his own savior. But God has given ALL mankind the choice to make. We cannot say that just because some choose not to accept the sacrifice, then it is not effective. It is quite effective, and available, for those who would receive it. What we have done is misunderstood what the sacrifice was for. We think that it is some kind of 'magical' wash that makes us god. It does not. What exactly does the sacrifice of Christ do?
Hbr 9:22-28 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
His sacrifice was to 'put away' sin. To purify us from sin. Is that the 'magical' potion that guarantees us a place in the Kingdom?
Hbr 9:11-14 "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent ( not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
The sacrifice, as was intended for in the Old Covenant, was to give the one sacrificing 'peace' with God. That way this thing called 'missing the mark' did not weigh on their conscience and cause them to keep stumbling along saying 'woe is me'. But now, we have been given an ETERNAL redemption, one that we did not have any part in, it is a sacrifice made without hands, and therefore is perfect in every way. It now continually cleanses the mind and soul of the one who believes. But if a person does not believe, then it has no effect on them.
It cleanses us to enable us to serve the living God. Its not a 'magical' wash that secures us a place in the Kingdom. What it does is secure the ETERNAL redemption of the conscience of those who believe. That is why, when He returns, it is not to deal with sin, but to take back those who are eagerly waiting for Him; those who through a pure conscience are serving Him.
What one has to understand is what this 'redemption' is all about.
redemption - lytrōsis
1) a ransoming, redemption
2) deliverance, esp. from the penalty of sin
What do we understand about this 'ransom' that was paid? This 'deliverance' from sin?
Rom 6:16-22 "Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life."
See, we are confined in our choices. We either can choose to obey, or to disobey which is called sin. When we obey from the heart, the Blood of Christ cleanses our concision to serve the Living God. In that serving, we are sanctified, through that sanctification we will become Christ like, and in the end we will receive eternal life.
All mans role is to do is obey. Thats it.
The only problem with your assessment is that none of the unbelievers are ever called sheep they are called goats. Also you seem to have failed to read further down in John 10 to verse 26 where the Lord tells some folks that they do not believe because they are not His sheep.
Yet it by no means says or intends all sinners. For you to make it say such it to misread the passages. It speaks of a specific group, though all may fit in that group, and does not in any way intend to mean every sinner.
If this means that all men have the benefit of the death of Christ then all men must be saved. There is no other conclusion to your application of the passage. Are you a universalist? What the passage is saying in its context is that all that are saved are saved by the substitutionay life and death of Christ.
The atonement is already made and it is only received as a glass receives water, the glass has nothing to do but be filled. More than that the atonement was made not to us but to God. He must first do something for Himself before He could ever do anything for chosen sinners. If that atonement was made to Him and He is satisfied, as Rom. 4:25 plainly tells us, then how could He ever punish a sinner for whom Christ died?
Verse 1-3 qualify verse 4. You seem to have conviently left off the verses that actually tell us what Paul is saying. Paul is simply telling Timothy that God would have all kinds of men to be saved.
Taken out of its context. John 6 is one of the most clear passages of Scriptures concerning God's sovereign election in the Scriptures. What you are doing is prooftexting. A prooftext is a text taken out of context and is nothing but a pretext. It is the method used by charlatans and false prophets.
So every man in the world has this light? Nonsense. The Master is simply saying that He is the light and people all over the world will see it and follow Him.
So if what you intend to show by this prooftext is that all men are justified then once more we must conclude that you believe in universal salvation. All who are justified are saved. The Scriptures are very clear on that.
A gift and an offer are not the same thing. If I offer you a dollar you make it yours when you take it. It all depends on you. If I give you a dollar I make it yours when I give it to you. It all depends on me. The Scriptures never speak of salvation as an offer they always speak of it as a gift.Salvation is a free gift offered to all, though not all choose to receive it.
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According to Rom. 10 the sinner hears the Gospel not just reads it. On must be given ears to hear. It is the same as when the Lord Jesus asked His diciples who men thought He was and after they asnswered Him He asked them who they thought He was. Peter answered that He is the Christ the Son of the living God. The Lord then told him that he got that knowledge by revelation not by flesh and blood. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The blood of Christ does'nt save through the Gospel it saves because it is sufficient to make a full amd complete atonement for the sin of all for whom it was intended. The power of the Gospel is the accomplished atonement of Christ.
I read the thread you asked me to and I found only one statement that gave me cause to think perhaps one is a Hyper-Calvinist. But after reading further it became clear that he isn't. Hyper-Calvinists are confused to be sure but labelling one a Hyper does not make him one.
I will try to get to this but suffice for now to say that it is based solely on prooftexting. You have taken snipets of Scripture and posted them in such a way as to make them say what you wish without any regard for their context. I abhor playing verse tag. If you can't post the passages and give their explanation according to their context then you have no real basis for your assumptions. It ia theology based on snipets not on Scriptures.
When you don't read theologians, thats what makes you call other people hyper-Calvinists.
Nathan
Member
Glad I am able to make you laugh.. Snipets....
But the reality of what I said still applies whether you laugh at it or not. Laughing off a truth doesn't make it untrue. If what I said is untrue it demands proof not avoidance. The sad fact is that most of todays so-called "Christianity" is based on snipets rather than on the teaching of the Scriptures as a whole. Folks have their memory verses that they build on without ever learning what the context of the verses are and miss the message of the passages and the whole of Scripture because of it.I would disagree. Nowhere does the Scriptures ever intimate that atonement is applied by faith. The atonement is applied by the righteousness of God in justice as the just Judge. Faith is the conduit through which the atonement is applied to our hearts but it isn't applied to our account by our faith. We are not justified by our faith in that sense we are justified by the representative life and substitutionary death of Christ. We are justified by His righteousness not by our faith. Faith lays hold of that justifying righteousness it by no means effects justification. Therefore being justified, by faith we have peace with God.
The only problem with such a statement is that it contradicts what you have posited concerning universal redemption. Either the death of Christ was for a particular people and actually saved all for whom it was intended or it was only a provision which man makes applicable to himself by his act of faith. If man makes it applicable to himself by his act of faith then man makes the blood of Christ efficacious. There is no way around it.
Simple definition: effective.
Nowhere do the Scriptures ever speak of receiving the blood of Christ. It speaks of receiving the atonement, which implies it has already been made on your behalf, and receiving Christ Jesus the Lord, Col. 2:6 meaning having receivd Him by the Spirit, but never of receiving the blood. Nor do the Scriptures ever speak of the blood being available if you will receive it.
Context! Paul, in his last inspired letter, is encouraging Timothy to continue in the things he had learned and by whom he had learned them considering that he was brought up in the Scriptures which are able to reveal salvation through faith in Christ, as opposed to accomplishing salvation through faith in Christ which you would seem to make them say.
Again Context! So your interpretation of Jame's words is that the implanted word saves us not the effectual atonement of Christ? James is just saying, according to the context, that those who are believers and lived by faith walking in the Spirit do so by the implanted word. The implanted word isn't the cause of our salvation it is the sustaining power in our walk.
You are now comparing two different passages with two different meanings as though they are speaking of the same thing. You are imposing the implanted word into a parable that has a totally different subject and meaning. James is speaking in a totally different context than is Christ Jesus the Lord.
Which you have yet to show. What you have shown is a willingness to take Scripture out of context and force it to mean what you impose on it.
What! I would agree that most have no understanding of what the sacrifice is or what it has accomplished but a "magical wash that makes us god?"
If only you actually understood what you have just said. He actually put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself he didn't make it available to be put away if you would only allow it by your faith. Since He actually put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself sin is gone. In the first chapter of Hebrews this language is used, He by Himself purged our sins. What happens when you purge something? It is completely removed. Notice that the atonement of Christ is always spoken of in the Scriptures in the past tense as an accomplished fact not an available offer.
I am going to leave off here. I may get to the rest at a later date.
nathanielhooper said:
nathanielhooper said:
watchman F
Member
Where did my posts go??????
watchman F
Member
Excellent point.
Nathan
Member
Glad I am able to make you laugh.
Yes, you did. Thank you for that. I agree with you, but I never said it made what you say untrue. Are we taking things out of context, applying a 'thought' to something that is not true?
Your right, almost all of todays 'christianity' is based on snippets. But we were told it would happen.
As far as your post above, finish when ever you get a chance. I am in no rush.
Nathan
Member
mlqurgw,
In order to better understand your point of view, I would like to ask a few questions.
If all men, who are called, who are His sheep, will be saved; then why argue to those that think otherwise? Does it really matter? Is one lie better than the other? Do you go onto other sites and argue against other truths? Why do you pick this particular 'lie', as you seem to think of it, as worse than someone saying it is going to rain tomorrow and it does not?
The other question, of much more importance, are all of His 'sheep' written in the Book of Life?
In order to better understand your point of view, I would like to ask a few questions.
If all men, who are called, who are His sheep, will be saved; then why argue to those that think otherwise? Does it really matter? Is one lie better than the other? Do you go onto other sites and argue against other truths? Why do you pick this particular 'lie', as you seem to think of it, as worse than someone saying it is going to rain tomorrow and it does not?
The other question, of much more importance, are all of His 'sheep' written in the Book of Life?
Nathan
Member
I never said anything about 'universal' redemption. Those words never left my finger tips. Are we again taking something out of context?
The death of Christ accomplished exactly what it was meant to accomplish. Regardless of the belief of an individual. Most do not believe that it is worth anything. Does that mean that it did not accomplish what it was meant to for the ones who do believe?
It is applicable only by faith.
Rom 3:21-26 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it--the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Ok. So are you going to break up, verses 23 and 24 saying that the 'all' does mean that 'all' have sinned, but not that 'all' are justified by His grace? So are you, and this is a valid question here, are you saying that ALL have sinned, but not the same ALL are justified by grace?
So that either means that only the ones that are justified by grace are the ones that have sinned. Or it means that ALL have sinned, but the translators messed up and should have left out the "and" and the rest of the passage that follows it. Which is it?
Or, does it mean that ALL have indeed sinned. And of those sinners, all who receive through faith this forgiveness of sins, have redemption by His blood?
Cant have it both ways. Unless the ones who will not receive the "gift" that God offers have not sinned. Because if they have sinned, then by Paul's own words, they are justified, through faith, by grace. But, if they choose not to 'accept' this payment for their sins, then they are classified as "unbelievers".
Still do not believe? Paul reiterates this again later in Romans. Please excuse me if I do not type the whole book out. If you are worried I am taking things out of context, then by all means include them in your reply.
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 If, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Ok. Break here real quick. Because a lot of people want to say, "only those who God chooses to receive will receive". But pay attention to the next verse. Because it dictates all that have the capability to receive.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ro 5:1-21).
So we have here, in verse 18 and 19, that the sin Adam committed transfered to ALL MEN. And the act of obedience from Jesus is for the same ALL MEN. And one man's disobedience 'the many' were made sinners, and through the obedience of Jesus 'the many' will be made righteous.
So. Either only the ones who are going to be saved are the ones who have sinned. Or ALL men have sinned, and ALL men have the free gift available for belief in. There is no other way to interpret this.
And, by the way;
You can 'give' me a dollar all day, but if I do not open my hand to receive it you have only offered it to me. And if you put it in my pocket, I have the choice of taking it out and throwing it on the ground. If I do not want it, I do not have to take it. Salvation is a gift...that is offered. If it is not offered, it cannot be a gift, it would be a demand.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
In heb 10:
10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Here, sanctified is in the perfect tense, it has be done once and for all in the past with results into the present.
In heb 10:14 The word Perfected, is in the perfect tense as well, and so, by these verbs being perfect, that would cause a continual sanctification. of body, soul, and Spirit until that Perfect day, the day of Christ.
1 thess 5:
23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.