The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[savedbygrace57]

sin:

Of course Jesus knows "His sheep", but that very phrase implies there are sheep which are NOT His.

If it is, He did not know them and did not died for them.

 

[savedbygrace57]

False Christ's



Matt 24:24

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The False Christs here means, the different denominations saying we serve and witness of the True Christ. Also the false Christ, is that Christ that is presented that He loved of all of humanity, and died for all of humanity without exception, to give them a chance at getting saved.

Thats a False Christ. If anyone believes that lie, that Christ died for everyones sins in the world without exception, you have been deceived, and unless God gives you repentance, you are on your way to hell, forever !

 

[Strangelove]

False Christ's



Matt 24:24

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The False Christs here means, the different denominations saying we serve and witness of the True Christ. Also the false Christ, is that Christ that is presented that He loved of all of humanity, and died for all of humanity without exception, to give them a chance at getting saved.

Thats a False Christ. If anyone believes that lie, that Christ died for everyones sins in the world without exception, you have been deceived, and unless God gives you repentance, you are on your way to hell, forever !

This is clearly the post of a beaten man.

Saying we're all going to HELL for believing any man can hear the message of Christ and come to salvation?

Staggering that you could say such a thing to believers. Heart wrenching.

May God have mercy on you.

 

[Strangelove]

As for your desire to be schooled:
Who without exception is not a sinner? You?

Rom 5:6 ¶ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 - For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 - But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.​

Yet it by no means says or intends all sinners. For you to make it say such it to misread the passages. It speaks of a specific group, though all may fit in that group, and does not in any way intend to mean every sinner.

10 out of 10 for mental gymnastics mate. Just..........ridiculous.

How much scripture do you need that says ALL MEN?

I still dont know what point you hyper-calvinists are trying to make with all this.

It's like you wanna invent some special group of people. Like an elite group and only they can be saved. This is just as bad as the hebrew roots dipensationalists. Worse infact.

How do you know that you are in this group??

 

[Strangelove]

According to Rom. 10 the sinner hears the Gospel not just reads it. On must be given ears to hear.

So who doesn't have ears?

It is the same as when the Lord Jesus asked His diciples who men thought He was and after they asnswered Him He asked them who they thought He was. Peter answered that He is the Christ the Son of the living God. The Lord then told him that he got that knowledge by revelation not by flesh and blood. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

So it goes:

Word of God (BIBLE) --> Hearing ---> Faith

Ok? So...?....?...? ANYONE CAN DO THIS!!

The blood of Christ does'nt save through the Gospel it saves because it is sufficient to make a full amd complete atonement for the sin of all for whom it was intended. The power of the Gospel is the accomplished atonement of Christ.

Self contradicting. Meaningless. Irrelevant. Sorry.

I read the thread you asked me to and I found only one statement that gave me cause to think perhaps one is a Hyper-Calvinist. But after reading further it became clear that he isn't. Hyper-Calvinists are confused to be sure but labelling one a Hyper does not make him one.

Yeah but finding a statement that makes you think he is a hyper-calvanist does make him one.

Dude.....he woulda denied it by now. Notice how in that thread he rejects any notion that the Gospels play any part in salvation. He's hyper. He's super-hyper.

 

[Strangelove]

When you don't read theologians, thats what makes you call other people hyper-Calvinists.

When you read theologians thats what makes you tell Brethren in Christ that they are going to hell:

The False Christs here means, the different denominations saying we serve and witness of the True Christ. Also the false Christ, is that Christ that is presented that He loved of all of humanity, and died for all of humanity without exception, to give them a chance at getting saved.

Thats a False Christ. If anyone believes that lie, that Christ died for everyones sins in the world without exception, you have been deceived, and unless God gives you repentance, you are on your way to hell, forever !

I'll stick to scripture, not Theosophy books.

....Thanks anyway.

 

[Strangelove]

Glad I am able to make you laugh. But the reality of what I said still applies whether you laugh at it or not. Laughing off a truth doesn't make it untrue. If what I said is untrue it demands proof not avoidance. The sad fact is that most of todays so-called "Christianity" is based on snipets rather than on the teaching of the Scriptures as a whole. Folks have their memory verses that they build on without ever learning what the context of the verses are and miss the message of the passages and the whole of Scripture because of it.

Your describing the OP here.

If anything NateDogs posts are overly detailed and in depth.

 

[Strangelove]

I would disagree. Nowhere does the Scriptures ever intimate that atonement is applied by faith. The atonement is applied by the righteousness of God in justice as the just Judge. Faith is the conduit through which the atonement is applied to our hearts but it isn't applied to our account by our faith. We are not justified by our faith in that sense we are justified by the representative life and substitutionary death of Christ. We are justified by His righteousness not by our faith. Faith lays hold of that justifying righteousness it by no means effects justification. Therefore being justified, by faith we have peace with God. The only problem with such a statement is that it contradicts what you have posited concerning universal redemption. Either the death of Christ was for a particular people and actually saved all for whom it was intended or it was only a provision which man makes applicable to himself by his act of faith. If man makes it applicable to himself by his act of faith then man makes the blood of Christ efficacious. There is no way around it.

Huh? This is such a non-sensical and nit-picky argument. What are you trying to prove? That you've read lots of books written by MEN and suddenly your much cleverer than all of us coz you got the inside line on justification?

Look fella....If the Apostle Paul says we're justified by faith....then we can say it too. Righteousness comes THROUGH faith ok? We all understand that. Get of your high horse dude. Justification is by FAITH.

3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Paul CONLUDED justification through faith ok? FOR EVERYONE..circumsized and uncircumsized. Thats good enough for me is it good enough for you?
​

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Ok? Are we allowed to say we're justified through faith? Pretty please?
​

2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be
justified.​

3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Need I go on?

You're seriously just overcomplicating things and making it confusing. This stuff is so simple that even a child can understand it.

Gospels/Faith ----> Righteousness ----> Grace ----> Salvation/Justification

Or in short Justification by Faith.

But you seem to be struggling with this? 2​

 

[Nathan]

In heb 10:

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Here, sanctified is in the perfect tense, it has be done once and for all in the past with results into the present.

In heb 10:14 The word Perfected, is in the perfect tense as well, and so, by these verbs being perfect, that would cause a continual sanctification. of body, soul, and Spirit until that Perfect day, the day of Christ.

1 thess 5:


23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

24Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

If you would not mind, before this particular post I asked another question you have not answered yet. It would truly help things along.

You believe that all of His sheep are written in His book of life. You believe that He has known and loved all of the ones written in His book of life. And you believe that only His sheep are written in the book of life.

My follow up question to these other questions, that you answered--thank you; the question is, are the Old Covenant sheep written in the book of life any different than the New Covenant sheep?

 

[Nathan]

In heb 10:

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Here, sanctified is in the perfect tense, it has be done once and for all in the past with results into the present.

In heb 10:14 The word Perfected, is in the perfect tense as well, and so, by these verbs being perfect, that would cause a continual sanctification. of body, soul, and Spirit until that Perfect day, the day of Christ.

1 thess 5:


23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

24Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

You are correct! The verb used in verse 10 is indeed in the perfect tense. Which is to say, that what Christ did is done. Christ sanctified those who believe. But in context we see that those who believe are being sanctified.

Huh? Is that double talk? No. It is just the way God works. He knows those who are going to believe. He has seen the end before the beginning. Therefore, we can have boldness to come before the throne and receive this faith that He offers. Knowing that He who has started this, is more than able to finish it.

But, unfortunately, verse 14 is not in the perfect tense. It is in the present tense. Which is to say it is "continuous". This is where we see the context.

Hebrews 10:14 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

μιᾷ γὰρ προσφορᾷ τετελείωκεν εἰς τὸ διηνεκὲς τοὺς ἁγιαζομένους.
KJV with Strong's

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified

Greek Transliteration Strong's Morphology English
μιᾷ mia 1520 A-DSF one
γὰρ gar 1063 CONJ For
προσφορᾷ prosphora 4376 N-DSF offering
τετελείωκεν teteleiōken 5048 V-RAI-3S he has fully perfected
εἰς eis 1519 PREP for
τὸ to 3588 T-ASN those
διηνεκὲς diēnekes 1336 A-ASN ever
τοὺς tous 3588 T-APM those
ἁγιαζομένους agiazomenous 37 V-PPP-APM being sanctified


I want to draw your attention to the bold and underlined letters. They represent (V)Verb-(PPP)Present Passive Participle-(APM)Accusative Plural Masculine

But what we do see is that the full, 'perfect tense' of the sanctification in verse 10, is applied to those here in verse 14 who are being sanctified. That is, the sacrifice has been made, it just needs to be continually sprinkled onto the heart of the believer. But we know from the morphology of the original language that this is an ongoing process, the sprinkling, not the sacrifice being made.

 

[Nathan]

Thats a False Christ. If anyone believes that lie, that Christ died for everyones sins in the world without exception, you have been deceived, and unless God gives you repentance, you are on your way to hell, forever !

But wont those who are called be made to repent? If they are not, then does that not make the call of God ineffective according to your view? You say "unless". How can His sheep go to hell? Do you not see the confusion you make with this statement?

 

[Elijah674]

Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the children of the devil Jn 8:44 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

The bigest reason is that none understand the Sanctuary Scapgoat teaching. And the Lord's WAY is in this teaching. Psalms 77:13 Most of today ones do not even study the O.T. Matt. 4:4

Perhaps they would just reply to this one thought? That of an Eternal Godhead in & with ALL FORKNOWLEDGE of the future having this Eternal Gospel PLAN (Rev. 14:6) allowing one of Them (Christ/God) to come to earth when needed to die in AGONY for 'some' that they knew that would NEVER BE SAVED? The flood had the Holy Spirit STRIVING with these ones for 120 years before the Ark's door was CLOSED. And Christ came and died for these ones even after the fact? Hardly!

But you think that the Atonement was already a Documented FACT other than in Forknowledge? This 'i' cannot buy into either! The Lambs Book Of Life is not a Done DEAL UNTIL IT IS ALL OVER WITH!
The question is not did the Godhead Eternally know, (Surely THEY DID!) but we freely are just doing as They KNEW!) Rev. 22:18-19 teach's that the recorded name can & will be SAVED or REMOVED from the Book of Life at a last time period, + Exod. 32:31 it will be the FINAL Tally just before Christ Comes Again!

But these are the First Resurected oned only. All the rest have sealed their fate & only await their sentencing of hell's Execution at the End of the 1000 years. Luke 12:47-48 (the Lord's strange ACT)

--Elijah

 

[HisSheep]

Hey Savedbygrace57

I hear you! I agree with you. Jesus died for the redemption of the elect and the earth. This is certainly the way the Psalms, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah et al. described the New Covenant… I can not tolerate the Oprahfied doctrine that God wants every person to be saved. If he wanted every person to be saved, they surely would be, and Revelation would be a very different book.

There is nothing good in a man to cause him to choose God; nothing that disposes him to take up a cross and follow. God must influence a fallen man to choose the right path.

Two verses I haven’t seen yet in this thread:

John 5:21
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

Mat 11:27
All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

-HisSheep

 

[Nathan]

Hey Savedbygrace57

I hear you! I agree with you. Jesus died for the redemption of the elect and the earth. This is certainly the way the Psalms, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah et al. described the New Covenant… I can not tolerate the Oprahfied doctrine that God wants every person to be saved. If he wanted every person to be saved, they surely would be, and Revelation would be a very different book.

There is nothing good in a man to cause him to choose God; nothing that disposes him to take up a cross and follow. God must influence a fallen man to choose the right path.

Two verses I haven’t seen yet in this thread:

John 5:21
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

Mat 11:27
All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

-HisSheep

So, are His sheep in the New Covenant written into the book of life any different than His sheep in the Old Covenant?

 

[smaller]

Here is the spiritual condition of AN ENSLAVED UNBELIEVER.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Here WAS the IDENTICAL CONDITION of every believing poster in this thread prior to their SALVATION:

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

ALL MANKIND who do not believe are PRESENTLY CAPTURED by the --->

SPIRIT OF DISOBEDIENCE.

Er, ah, that would be THE DEVIL.

Did God in Christ die for DEVILS? Assuredly NOT! Therefore LIMITED ATONEMENT is a fact. The atonement did NOT apply to DEVILS. It is therefore LIMITED.

I will AGREE with the determinists, that ONLY THOSE whom God 'allows' to HEAR and SEE become believers.

A great difficulty arises however when we VIEW the FACT that we 'still sin.'

-SIN IS OF THE DEVIL (1 John 3:8)

and....

We still ALL do GOAT WORKS


These latter items PRECLUDE any believer from being A PURE SHEEP.


Sorry to be TRUTHFUL. The TRUTH is meant to BRING some PAIN and SUFFERING into these equations for 'believers.'


Sheep are by nature, WEAK, IN THE FLESH.


WHY?


enjoy!


smaller

 

[smaller]

False Christ's

The False Christs here means, the different denominations saying we serve and witness of the True Christ. Also the false Christ, is that Christ that is presented that He loved of all of humanity, and died for all of humanity without exception, to give them a chance at getting saved.

Thats a False Christ. If anyone believes that lie, that Christ died for everyones sins in the world without exception, you have been deceived, and unless God gives you repentance, you are on your way to hell, forever !

I'm sorry, but not only is THAT POST blatantly against the rules of ANY common christian posting board, but is also an EXAMPLE of why I DON'T COTTON to many branches of DETERMINISM.

We ALL see ONLY IN PART.

You have NOT ascended your ETERNAL JUDGMENT THRONE just yet, whoever you are.

Partial SIGHT has taken that option OFF THE TABLE for YOU!

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Strangelove]

Hey Savedbygrace57

I hear you! I agree with you. Jesus died for the redemption of the elect and the earth. This is certainly the way the Psalms, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah et al. described the New Covenant… I can not tolerate the Oprahfied doctrine that God wants every person to be saved. If he wanted every person to be saved, they surely would be, and Revelation would be a very different book.

There is nothing good in a man to cause him to choose God; nothing that disposes him to take up a cross and follow. God must influence a fallen man to choose the right path.

Two verses I haven’t seen yet in this thread:

John 5:21
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

Mat 11:27
All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

-HisSheep

Hi HisSheep.....Nice to meet you.

I have a question for you if you take the position of the OP.

Do you offer the Gospel to people? Non-believers?

If you do....what exactly do you say to them?

Thanks, Doc.

P.S. And.....how do you, personally, know that you are one of his sheep?

 

[HisSheep]

So, are His sheep in the New Covenant written into the book of life any different than His sheep in the Old Covenant?

Man, I don’t know… I’m just saying that in the O.T. God clearly and often describes Himself as sovereign. Isaiah 45 and 46, Psalm 139, etc. He causes all things to happen; good and bad alike. He’s in complete control!

I have a hard time with any doctrine or interpretation which renders God as less than absolutely almighty. If one holds an interpretation that leaves God getting less than everything He intends… then that interpretation simply can not be correct. If he WANTS to save all people, but is unable to do so... who’s will got done instead of God’s?

This life is not a great chess game between God and the devil… The devil presents no challenge whatsoever to God… That’s all I’m saying…

John 10:29
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

-HisSheep

 

[savedbygrace57]

hissheep:

If one holds an interpretation that leaves God getting less than everything He intends… then that interpretation simply can not be correct.

Well said, for such thinking is demeaning and dishonoring to the True God, it exalts someone else's will being done over His !

 

[smaller]

hissheep:
Well said, for such thinking is demeaning and dishonoring to the True God, it exalts someone else's will being done over His !

Divine Sovereignty and determinism (in it's saner forms) means that YOU do not sit in the eternal judgment chair.

You have wildly exceeded determinism in setting yourSELF in that SEAT.

s