The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Deavonreye]

Naturally I pity them, realizing it could have been me very easily, but spiritually no i don't pity them, because they blaspheme God..

ps 139:


19Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.

20For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.

21Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

So now tell me deavon, what is your feelings towards God who created some as vessels of wrath ? Do you love Him ?

First, thank you for answering my question.

I'm not sure why it is okay to hate someone with "perfect hatred". Seems rather petty. I can understand strongly disliking someone who purposefully and maliciously denegrates someone I love, but everlasting hatred is not an advanced trait.

As for your question, would I love a deity who purposefully created vessels in order for said deity to express extreme anger towards? . . . . . If I turned it around to, let's say, my own dad. If my dad did this, I would still love him, . . . but would oppose his actions, and try to find a way to help address the issue. But, I would have to wonder about his mental state, creating obstacles for his own happiness doesn't make any logical sense.

 

[savedbygrace57]

deavon:

As for your question, would I love a deity who purposefully created vessels in order for said deity to express extreme anger towards? . . . . . If I turned it around to, let's say, my own dad. If my dad did this, I would still love him,

Just answer the question please. Also after that get back on subject.

Post 514-517 i have presented, and you have avoided them all, why is that ?

 

[Strangelove]

How's the thread going guys?

Who's winning?

Did Jesus die for all men?? Yes.

Did Jesus die for the salvation of all men? No.

Compromise to end this thing before you get to the 40 page limit?

 

[mondar]

How's the thread going guys?

Who's winning?

Did Jesus die for all men?? Yes.

Did Jesus die for the salvation of all men? No.

Compromise to end this thing before you get to the 40 page limit?

Interesting. So Christ died for all men, but was not trying to save them? What was he trying to do with those he was not dieing to save?

Is the underlying fear that there is some implication that we should not evangelize all men? Calvinists are normally highly evangelistic. Is it because of a concern that somehow we devalue the atonement? Calvinists hold the highest view of the atonement. The blood is infinite in ts ability to save. It would be like humanity drowning in the ocean. God has an infinite number of life preservers, but he threw them all to the elect. The question I am wondering, is why would Jesus die for all men, if it was not to save them?

 

[Strangelove]

Interesting. So Christ died for all men, but was not trying to save them? What was he trying to do with those he was not dieing to save?

Is the underlying fear that there is some implication that we should not evangelize all men? Calvinists are normally highly evangelistic. Is it because of a concern that somehow we devalue the atonement? Calvinists hold the highest view of the atonement. The blood is infinite in ts ability to save. It would be like humanity drowning in the ocean. God has an infinite number of life preservers, but he threw them all to the elect. The question I am wondering, is why would Jesus die for all men, if it was not to save them?

Can the life, death and resurrection (described in the Gospels) and the lessons and commandments contained therein not have a positive effect on any man even if he is not predestined for salvation?

 

[savedbygrace57]

strangelove ask:

Did Jesus die for all men?? Yes.

No. Shall all men without exception be made righteous ? rom 5:

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[mondar]

Can the life, death and resurrection (described in the Gospels) and the lessons and commandments contained therein not have a positive effect on any man even if he is not predestined for salvation?

Can you be more specific? What positive effect are you talking about? Calvinist, or Reformed people agree that there is "common grace" that God shows to all men. When the rain falls, it falls on the just and the unjust alike. God withholds his judgment for a time upon evil men. He waits until the time for judgment is right (in his sovereignty). Is that the positive effect you are referring to? Or is it something more? Is it something connected to free will theology? By the term free will, I am of course referring to the moral neutrality of man in his ability to have faith.

 

[Strangelove]

Can you be more specific? What positive effect are you talking about? Calvinist, or Reformed people agree that there is "common grace" that God shows to all men. When the rain falls, it falls on the just and the unjust alike. God withholds his judgment for a time upon evil men. He waits until the time for judgment is right (in his sovereignty). Is that the positive effect you are referring to? Or is it something more? Is it something connected to free will theology? By the term free will, I am of course referring to the moral neutrality of man in his ability to have faith.

If a man is not predestined for salvation can Jesus' death still cause positive things in his life? Can he still repent against sin? Can he spread the teachings of Christ for others who might be predestined to be saved?

Yes or No?

 

[Deavonreye]

deavon:



Just answer the question please. Also after that get back on subject.

Post 514-517 i have presented, and you have avoided them all, why is that ?

If I knew this god to be true AND the theology of "pre-destination of the saints and the damned without any of them having a say" being the correct interpretation of scripture, . . . then I would have to disagree and oppose this deity. I would have to ask anyone how they COULD "love" an entity that would purposefully send people to everlasting fire, where they would experience an eternity of pain, because a deity desired it . . . and for its glory.

 

[savedbygrace57]

deavon:

If I knew this god to be true AND the theology of "pre-destination of the saints and the damned without any of them having a say" being the correct interpretation of scripture

Yes or No. Do you Love God who created some of His creatures for His own Glory, to be punished eternally for their sins ?

 

[Deavonreye]

deavon:



Yes or No. Do you Love God who created some of His creatures for His own Glory, to be punished eternally for their sins ?

Could I love this deity? No. If YOU do, . . . why? Maybe I'm not seeing things correctly and you could help me out.

 

[savedbygrace57]

strange:

If a man is not predestined for salvation can Jesus' death still cause positive things in his life?

Jesus death did nothing for the damned.

Can he still repent against sin?

Not in regards to salvation, perhaps in the degree of punishment. The Non Elect are still accountable to God as His creature, and must obey His moral goverment, but that has nothing to do with salvation.

Can he spread the teachings of Christ for others who might be predestined to be saved?

How can he, when he himself is ignorant of the True Christ ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

deav:

Could I love this deity? No

Then you put men before God, thats idolatry. The First and Greatest commandment for men is:

matt 22:


36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

 

[Deavonreye]

deav:



Then you put men before God, thats idolatry. The First and Greatest commandment for men is:

matt 22:


36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

I see, so you really can't "care" about the pain of a person suffering for eternity, because god gets glory for their suffering and that's more important.

So, if I could turn the question around to you,. . . suppose that you were not created as a vessel of salvation. Would you love this god who hates you with all wrath and created you purposefully to be punished without any say of your own?

 

[Strangelove]

Not in regards to salvation, perhaps in the degree of punishment. The Non Elect are still accountable to God as His creature, and must obey His moral goverment, but that has nothing to do with salvation.

So he can repent against sin.

And he can say to others something simple like...'Jesus Christ is the way'

Therefore. Jesus can have a positive effect on any man's life. Predestined for salvation or not.

Therefore the topic title:

The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception!

.....is false. It is not a myth because Jesus' death can have a positive effect on ANY man without exception. So he died for all men without exception.

Case closed.

Now if you wanna make another thread with the title:

The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died TO SAVE all men without exception!

Then be my guest. And as a closet Calvanist (which most Christians surely are) I would support you every step of the way.

Rant......Terminate

Doc.

 

[savedbygrace57]

strange:

So he can repent against sin.

Yeah. Easu repented heb 12:17

For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

peter told a man to repent acts 8:22

Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Jesus said that if certain people would have seen the miracles that some have seen, they would have repented. matt 11:21

Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

But these have noting to do with evangelical repentance because of remission of sins as in lk 24:47

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

 

[savedbygrace57]

deavon:

I see, so you really can't "care" about the pain of a person suffering for eternity

I see you dont care about God since you put it like that.

Scripture speaks of men like you :

2 tim 3:4

Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

 

[savedbygrace57]

So he can repent against sin.

And he can say to others something simple like...'Jesus Christ is the way'

Therefore. Jesus can have a positive effect on any man's life. Predestined for salvation or not.

Therefore the topic title:

The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception!

.....is false. It is not a myth because Jesus' death can have a positive effect on ANY man without exception. So he died for all men without exception.

Case closed.

Now if you wanna make another thread with the title:

The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died TO SAVE all men without exception!

Then be my guest. And as a closet Calvanist (which most Christians surely are) I would support you every step of the way.

Rant......Terminate

Doc.

All the men Christ died for shall be made righteous per rom 5:

so by the obedience[death] of one shall many be made righteous.

Will all men without exception be made righteous ? No..

So common sense tells us that Christ death was not in behalf of all men without exception..

 

[Deavonreye]

deavon:
I see you dont care about God since you put it like that.

Scripture speaks of men like you :

2 tim 3:4

Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

It is exactly as I "put it", sbg. If god "cared" for these that he purposefully created to be wrathfully angry at, . . . that would be schizophrenic.

 

[Strangelove]

All the men Christ died for shall be made righteous per rom 5:

so by the obedience[death] of one shall many be made righteous.

Will all men without exception be made righteous ? No..

So common sense tells us that Christ death was not in behalf of all men without exception..

Whats righteous got to do with it?

If Jesus' death has an effect on you be it positive OR negative then He died for you.

Jesus' death can have a positive effect on ANY man whether he becomes righteous or saved or not. Even if that man loves his wife a little bit more than when he never read the Gospels then thats good enough.

Therefore Christ died for the benefit of all men.

End of Story.