A
Alabaster
Guest
Jesus died for all so that if they would believe on Him they would be saved. Period.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
I asked some questions, just to clarify what you were saying before this. You did not clarify what you were saying but asked me questions. Could you go back to my questions and give me straitforward answers to the questions? I am interested in what you have to say.
Concerning your question. I assume you are asking about Christs ability to do good things to a person if he is predestined to salvation? I am not absolutely certain of the answer to the question. It depends upon what you mean by the term "good?" Is it good to become king? Is it good to be born to power and prestige? Then Pharaoh, before God judged him, certainly gave him many "good" things. Did God give Pharaoh a messenger in Moses? Certainly that was in some way "good." I am not sure I would agree to connect these things to a view of the atonement or predestination. So then, what would the point be?
No man "can" repent of sin (John 6:44). Repentance, or faith is the work of God in man after regeneration (1 John 5:1), and not the work of man for God (Eph 2:8-9). Faith is a divine undertaking when God elects in eternity past (Eph 1:4) and then regenerates a person during his lifetime (1 John 5:1) so that they believe.
I can exegetically discuss the references if you wish. Let me know. I hope that is the point of our discussion, the scripture.
Well, I guess it is possible for someone predestined for eternal destruction to spread the gospel. But not everyone who says "Lord Lord" will enter the kingdom.
*** One last thing, can you explain the relationship of your questions to the questions I asked? How does this answer my questions? Are you just looking to win a debate? IS this all that your questions are about?
I know this is to sbg, and I am sure he will reply, but I cannot help expressing an opinion here. The problem is my opinion will not help.
-----God not only does not mind the vessels of wrath suffering eternally, but he does not mind the elect suffering in this life.
-----And yes, I know, you cannot worship such a God, in fact you hate the idea.
-----Deavonreye, read the threads. I think the scripture is clear. Christians have trouble with such a sovereign God, why would a non-Christian have less trouble.
----- I know the issue and you do too, it is not God, but the nature of man. You see some men as morally OK. I see all men as worthy of only destruction. I see myself as unworthy of any favor or love from a holy God. I may not be as bad as Hitler, but I am not good. You see yourself as good, and that is the biggest part of your rebellion. Your standard for good is far below the standard of God. All men have a standard of good far below Gods standard.
S
Strangelove
Guest
No....I'm asking about Christs ability to do good things to a person if he is NOT predestined to salvation.
What do I mean by good? Lolz....um....the opposite of bad? Positive...I'm not sure how I can clarify the term further.
Maybe if I give an example.
If a non-predestined man is married but does not show love for his wife, then he reads the Gospels and see's where it says,,'men love your wives'...........and then he makes more effort showing love for his wife....
.......that is 'good' yes? Or isn't it?
It's got nought to do with whether that particular man who spreads the Gospel gets into the Kingdom. We've established that he is not pre-destined to be saved. But he is performing something positive no? Spreading the Word of God.
Can a non-predestined man spread the Word of God. Simple question.
EDIT: Sorry I see you already answered yes to that last question...
...so my next question is :
If Christ didn't die then that man would not be spreading the Word of God....obviously. So Jesus' death had a positive effect on that man yes?
Deavonreye
Member
And what "standard" is that? How is this "morality" better than mine?
This is how I see all of this. People are meaningless to god. He chooses a few so he can gain some worship unto himself. The rest are sent to eternal torture on purpose FOR this glory. Can you, or anyone else, really be okay with this?
A
Alabaster
Guest
How you view things is opposite to how God sees them. If people were meaningless to God, who created us with our own beauty and sovereignty built right in, yet we fell and He made a way for us to be reconciled to Him because He considers us worthy of relationship, how can that possibly be?
You have a very skewed way of looking at things, and it is in dire opposition to the truth, but it comes from an unregenerated mind, and that is the reason for it.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
More blasphemy, get ready to stand before God for Judgment..
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
By His Knowledge He shall Justify Many !
Isa 53:
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Those He knows, He Justifies, why, because He shall bear their sins or iniquities. But those He says He never knew, as per Matt 7:
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
He never bear their iniquities..So His death was limited to those He knew, those given to Him of the Father..Jn 6:
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;
Isa 53:
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Those He knows, He Justifies, why, because He shall bear their sins or iniquities. But those He says He never knew, as per Matt 7:
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
He never bear their iniquities..So His death was limited to those He knew, those given to Him of the Father..Jn 6:
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;
A
Alabaster
Guest
Re: By His Knowledge He shall Justify Many !
What a distorted way to look at the truth! Have you ever had any godly teachers in your life?
Jesus' death has not limited one single thing! It was a provision for all who would only come! Jesus cannot 'know' (as in 'intimate knowledge of') anyone who has not come to Him in faith, believing He is all that He says He is.
Any failure or limit is only on those who hear the Gospel and reject it. There is a condition to salvation: one must accept it, just as one must accept any free gift. But His death was for all, and He bore the sins of all---even those who will never come.
What a distorted way to look at the truth! Have you ever had any godly teachers in your life?
Jesus' death has not limited one single thing! It was a provision for all who would only come! Jesus cannot 'know' (as in 'intimate knowledge of') anyone who has not come to Him in faith, believing He is all that He says He is.
Any failure or limit is only on those who hear the Gospel and reject it. There is a condition to salvation: one must accept it, just as one must accept any free gift. But His death was for all, and He bore the sins of all---even those who will never come.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Quite certainly Christ did not bear the sins of them He never Knew.
He bare the sins of many heb 9:
28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
It does not say " to bear the sins of all without exception "
He bare the sins of many heb 9:
28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
It does not say " to bear the sins of all without exception "
Deavonreye
Member
Me: "It is exactly as I "put it", sbg. If god "cared" for these that he purposefully created to be wrathfully angry at, . . . that would be schizophrenic."
So then it should be concluded that god DOESN'T care about those destined for his wrath, . . . so why should you, right?
By the way, your "threats" against me are uncalled for. You have no proof that you are right, so you are attacking me. That should be against the rules.
So then it should be concluded that god DOESN'T care about those destined for his wrath, . . . so why should you, right?
By the way, your "threats" against me are uncalled for. You have no proof that you are right, so you are attacking me. That should be against the rules.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
You dont care about God. Why should I care about a person who hates God ? Thats evil..
2 chron 19:
2And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD.
A Godly Man or Woman hates those who oppose God ps 139:
19Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Deavonreye
Member
Uh, excuse me, but you don't get to put words in my mouth. I never stated anywhere on this forum that I "hated god". You show me these words in any of my posts!!! You once accused me of "lying to you". Who's lying now?
2But what this DOES show me is that you SEEM [note the qualifyer] to suggest that people who you claim to "hate god" should not be cared about. And if that is the case, then one could conclude logically that god wouldn't care about them either.
What about:
Matthew 5: 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
deavon:
You certainly implied that with your responses, see posts 530-531
You certainly implied that with your responses, see posts 530-531
Deavonreye
Member
My posts are a response to an ideology, one which I believe to be completely man made. I have no reason to believe them to be ACTUALLY the thoughts and desires of any god. Many people have a belief system that is of no concern, and what I've been trying to do here is talk against what I see as immoral. This cannot be concluded as me talking against anyone but people and their unfounded beliefs. Not all of christianity holds to your interpretation.
Yes, I am not only OK with this, but this is as it should be.
The difference between our views is that I view God as God. He is the sovereign creator and he created the universe for his pleasure. You view man as the supreme being and in your theology, God exists only for the pleasure of man. So then, you must always insist on a God that serves man, while I will always view man as created only for the pleasure of God. The views are opposite and irreconcilable.
Your statement that "People are meaningless to god" is interesting. David expresses the thought that man should be of no interest to God. He sad "who is man that thou art mindful of him." God is so far above man that David struggles to grasp any reason for man to have any "meaning" in the sight of such a glorious God. What I hear doing is completely reversing this. Unless you find that God serves man according to your whims, you cannot believe in such a God. So then, man has to be made sufficiently righteous in and of himself, and God is pictured as the unjust ogre who is out of line in punishing a rebellious mankind. The righteousness of man, and the depravity of God!
That is why... when you said... you cannot believe in such a God.... I said.... "I know." If I had your beginning presuppositions about the exalted nature of the creature (man)....... and the servant hood of the creator (God), I would come to the same conclusion as you do. Of course I do not begin with your presupposition, but I start with God being God, and man being a creation. But you cannot believe for another reason, unless it is given to you by God, faith is impossible. In the fall of man (Adam) we lost our free will to believe. At that time, the whole human race began starting with rebellious presuppositions that reduce the holy and righteous God to a little meek servant, who has to create man so that he might fulfill some needs of his own.
Why is the "standard" or "morality" of God better then that of man? Because God is God, and man is man. Because God is creator, and man is a creature.
Can the pot talk back to the potmaker and say "why did you make me this way?" Where were you when God laid the foundations of the earth, when he created the great sea creatures? Who is man, that God is even mindful of him? To me, it is totally amazing that God would save any of us. To you, it is unjust that God would punish. You call his punishment... "eternal torture for his glory." You cannot even articulate the issue of the punishment of man without using language that would suggest that God is evil for "torturing" man.
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After all I said, the bottom line is this....... that God made the world, and he will not give up his right to judge the world. A man's repentance is the only way out.
Sounds like salvation by works, no? How can any man do "good?"
On the other hand, men are not as evil as they could be. God restrains sin, even the sin of those not predestined, and that is "good."
If an unsaved man proclaims a gospel he does not believe, how is that the effect of the atonement?
Deavonreye
Member
Mondar, . . . I never stated that man was anything near "supreme". Humanity has flaws, and often I wish they didn't. The world would be a far better place is all people would simply follow the "golden rule".
What I have been trying to do here is to debate against a form of christianity that I cannot find to be moral [god creating people to be vessels of wrath, for his pleasure].
I DO have a view of god that I like and would love to actually find [of which I have yet to]. Some of this view does reside in passages found in the Psalms. What I'm saying is that, in the grand scheme of things, if the verse from Psalms, that you quoted, is true ["who is man that you are mindful of him...."] then because everyone IS the same, then this verse could only be meant for everyone.
As I see it, "wrath" and "who is man that you are mindful of him" are incongruent.
What I have been trying to do here is to debate against a form of christianity that I cannot find to be moral [god creating people to be vessels of wrath, for his pleasure].
I DO have a view of god that I like and would love to actually find [of which I have yet to]. Some of this view does reside in passages found in the Psalms. What I'm saying is that, in the grand scheme of things, if the verse from Psalms, that you quoted, is true ["who is man that you are mindful of him...."] then because everyone IS the same, then this verse could only be meant for everyone.
As I see it, "wrath" and "who is man that you are mindful of him" are incongruent.
How are they incongruent? Both are connected by the creatureliness of man.
Yes, I know you did not articulate the idea of mans supremacy, but If God does not have the right to judge his creation... man, then how is God supreme? In your judgment of God (the God that judges ) are you not taking the position of sovereignty? Is not that the point of Romans 9, Job, and many other passages. We are the creature, and God can do with his creation as he chooses. God judges righteously those who rebel.
Deavonreye
Member
Some would not consider themselves to be "a rebel", if they just disagree with what some men claim as being "a reality". This is my main point of several topics I've been on. IF your interpretation of god is actually correct, I may be punished for my inability to see value in creating vessels of destruction that have no say in it. However, I would choose to believe that if a truly righteous judge [one who judges fairly] listened to my case, this judge would see that see the heart of one who is being honest with true feelings, and take that into account.
I happen to disagree with an ideology of man that CLAIMS to have come from god. I've not seen good reason to believe that TO be the case, and to be honest, most of the things found in the bible seem more akin to human thoughts.