Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

God has chosen believers. He knows us as individuals and chooses us from before the foundation of the world to be His very own. He delights in us, who have been reconciled to Him by the blood of the Lamb.

God has chosen us IN CHRIST. It's a simple biblical fact.

It's also a biblical fact that every last one of us in Adam is under the same condemnation... which aligns precisely with what the LORD taught.. that if you or me or anybody will come after Him, that they must deny themselves, take up their cross and follow Christ... for if we shall seek to save our life we shall lose it.

Christ centered election isn't popular these days.. it seem like many would rather speak about how God chose them instead of letting Christ be glorified in all things.

How do you reconcile the fact that there are none good but one, and that if we shall seek to save our life we shall lose it... by ignoring it ?
 
God has chosen us IN CHRIST. It's a simple biblical fact.

It's also a biblical fact that every last one of us in Adam is under the same condemnation... which aligns precisely with what the LORD taught.. that if you or me or anybody will come after Him, that they must deny themselves, take up their cross and follow Christ... for if we shall seek to save our life we shall lose it.

Christ centered election isn't popular these days.. it seem like many would rather speak about how God chose them instead of letting Christ be glorified in all things.

How do you reconcile the fact that there are none good but one, and that if we shall seek to save our life we shall lose it... by ignoring it ?

You cannot be of the elect without Christ. I think you are playing a game of semantics.
 
Furthermore, God doesn't need to shed more blood, since the redemption of mankind has already been freely given.

Dear Francisdesales, What you are saying makes sense, based on Scripture. For 1,054 years there was an undivided Church, which resisted heresies, and overcame them in both East and in West. Catholics and Orthodox were then the same thing, and there was no distinction between them. They gradually grew to have differences in doctrine which led to schism in 1054 AD. But they all agreed with a view of foreknowledge and predestination in God that God always intends to save all people, but that some people resist being saved. God does not force Himself on anyone, but makes His grace available to anyone who believes in Him and repents. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington


It is EFFICIENT to the saved, but it is indeed OFFERED to ALL. That's where your theology fails. It does not take into account the offering of redemption made to mankind. EVERYONE. And God is not to blame for the turning of men to evil.



You are going to have to prove that, rather than just assert it. I have yet to see any verse that makes that statement, and yet, I have plentiful verses that prove otherwise.

The intent of the Atonement is to undo the Original Sin. Doesn't Paul make that very clear in Romans 5? And if Original Sin is universal, so must the Atonement. Same with Jesus being the Mediator between God and mankind. Jesus became man and is mankind's mediator.

Regards[/QUOTE]
 
You cannot be of the elect without Christ. I think you are playing a game of semantics.

I agree.. God doesn't choose a single one of us in Adam, in our flesh. Every last one is elected IN HIM because HE IS the elect. We are members of HIS BODY... old things are passed away.

Even after a person is saved we are taught to put off our old man who is corrupt and to put on the Lord Jesus Christ.

It should be obvious that God isn't choosing us at all, but that He is choosing us IN HIS Beloved Son.
 
I agree.. God doesn't choose a single one of us in Adam, in our flesh. Every last one is elected IN HIM because HE IS the elect. We are members of HIS BODY... old things are passed away.

Even after a person is saved we are taught to put off our old man who is corrupt and to put on the Lord Jesus Christ.

It should be obvious that God isn't choosing us at all, but that He is choosing us IN HIS Beloved Son.


God has His finger on me when I was far from Him.
 
God has His finger on me when I was far from Him.

I believe that God has an interest in all of us, because He is our Creator. From one man's blood He created the entire world of human beings in Adam, that's staggering to say the least... and we know that He is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.

I think that it's all beyond our widest imaginations.

SO I agree.. God does have an interest in each and every one of us, in ways that we may not begin to see, let alone understand.

Again, I think that there are many Christians being taught that they are the elect, that God even chose THEM unconditionally.

The question is... why would I embrace that as truth when the word of God tells me flat out that if I shall seek to save my life I shall lose it, and that if I want to follow Christ, that I must deny myself, take up my cross (death to self) and follow Him... ?

How do you equate that with Christ choosing YOU ?
That doesn't equate to God choosing me at all.. it teaches me that those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh (our old nature as descendants of Adam) and that they now live by the power of the Holy Spirit of Christ which is in them.

It's not me and Christ, it's Christ in me, my hope of glory.
 
Again, I think that there are many Christians being taught that they are the elect, that God even chose THEM unconditionally.

If they are Christians, then they are the elect.

The question is... why would I embrace that as truth when the word of God tells me flat out that if I shall seek to save my life I shall lose it, and that if I want to follow Christ, that I must deny myself, take up my cross (death to self) and follow Him... ?

What has that got to do with the fact that all believers are of the elect in Christ?

How do you equate that with Christ choosing YOU ?

I love/choose Jesus because He first loved/chose me. It's as simple as that.
 
If they are Christians, then they are the elect.

And why is that ?



What has that got to do with the fact that all believers are of the elect in Christ?

I agree and understand that all believers are the elect in Christ. I asked why I (or anyone) would be led to believe that God chose me in light of the simple scriptural truths which declare otherwise.



I love/choose Jesus because He first loved/chose me. It's as simple as that.

I agree. I trusted in Jesus of Nazareth after reading and hearing the gospel of God concerning His Son. I was born again by the incorruptible word of God which lives and abides for ever.. just as every other believer was.. and I have have seen first hand what a wretched man that I am, and what an infinitely glorious and majestic man that He is.
 
And why is that ?

As believers we are the Church of Jesus Christ, the called out ones. The elect.

I agree and understand that all believers are the elect in Christ. I asked why I (or anyone) would be led to believe that God chose me in light of the simple scriptural truths which declare otherwise.

Please give them.

Ephesians 1:4 NKJV is firm about our election.
just as He chose us in Him before the
foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
 
God has chosen believers. He knows us as individuals and chooses us from before the foundation of the world to be His very own. He delights in us, who have been reconciled to Him by the blood of the Lamb.

Alabaster! You surprise me! :thumbsup Good for you!

You're beaming friend,
TG
 
As believers we are the Church of Jesus Christ, the called out ones. The elect.



Please give them.

Ephesians 1:4 NKJV is firm about our election.
just as He chose us in Him before the
foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Dear Christian friend, Alabaster, non-Calvinists and Calvinists alike, If we are Christians, if we belong to Jesus Christ, we are chosen by Christ before the foundation of the world. I believe Christ loved me before the foundation of the world. He saves me, though I am unworthy of Him. Election does not, however, imply Calvinism, or that God is the cause of anything else besides the good (salvation). In Erie PA Scott Harrington
 
As believers we are the Church of Jesus Christ, the called out ones. The elect.

The only reason that we are referred to the elect is because we are IN THE ELECT, and that is Jesus Christ... members of His body.


Please give them.

Ephesians 1:4 NKJV is firm about our election.
just as He chose us in Him before the
foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
[/quote]

This verse does not prove that God chose me, it proves that God chose me IN CHRIST. An enormous difference to say the least.

You're a Calvinist ?
 
The only reason that we are referred to the elect is because we are IN THE ELECT, and that is Jesus Christ... members of His body.

Every Christian should know that. It's not a new revelation.


This verse does not prove that God chose me, it proves that God chose me IN CHRIST. An enormous difference to say the least.

Yes it says what it means! Do you see that? No one is saying what you claim. Why so much emphasis on 'in Him' when no one really denies it. Has that been your experience with many people?

You're a Calvinist ?

I am a King's kid.
 
Every Christian should know that. It's not a new revelation.

And yet countless Christians are being taught and believe that God chose THEM when He didn't.

Yes it says what it means! Do you see that? No one is saying what you claim. Why so much emphasis on 'in Him' when no one really denies it. Has that been your experience with many people?

The emphasis must always be on Christ.. otherwise we have people talking about election all day long without ever mentioning the Lord Jesus Christ... and that's exactly what the god of this present evil world wants... the focus taken off of Christ and put upon condemned men.

I am a King's kid.

Can't admit that you're a Calvinist... I can understand that.
 
And yet countless Christians are being taught and believe that God chose THEM when He didn't.

He did, from our mothers' wombs, praise God!


The emphasis must always be on Christ.. otherwise we have people talking about election all day long without ever mentioning the Lord Jesus Christ... and that's exactly what the god of this present evil world wants... the focus taken off of Christ and put upon condemned men.

No one is diverting from Jesus Christ by believing that we are created to know God.

Can't admit that you're a Calvinist... I can understand that.

I don't admit to something I know nothing about. Labels are just that. I am a Bible-believing Christian.
 
He did, from our mothers' wombs, praise God!

God chose you from your mothers womb ? What scripture do you use to support that claim ? What about where the LORD says that if you shall seek to save your life that you shall lose it... is that not applicable to you ?

No one is diverting from Jesus Christ by believing that we are created to know God.

Really, check out some discussions on election and count the times that you hear about the Lord Jesus Christ being the elect of God.

I don't admit to something I know nothing about. Labels are just that. I am a Bible-believing Christian.

If it quacks like a duck... hey wait a sec.. you are a duck !
 
Drew, did you even bother to contrast the way Paul actually speaks of the works of the law in Galatians with the way he does not use the term law in Ephesians. I am not talking about the mere counting of the term (even though I did say something like that).

Galatians 2:15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ."
**** Paul is clear that he is speaking of the works of the Mosiac Law. He states the issue directly.

Galatians 2:16 "So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified."
**** The Pauline phrase is "works of the law."

Galatians 2:21 "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!â€
**** Notice here the way Paul adresses the issue of the law... now the word "works" is not present in this text, but that is an important point. Paul never uses the term "works" without the term "Law" in Galatians.
This is not a very compelling argument. You are essentially saying that unless Paul explicitly qualifies any reference to "works" with a clear reference to "the Law", then we must understand "works" to be referring to good works.

Besides, there is strong doubt as to whether Paul is actually the author of Ephesians, whereas it is clear that he is indeed the author of Galatians.

But let's put that aside for the moment. The first problem with your argument is that you are not engaging the force of the argument I have presented in respect to Ephesians 2 (or at least you are not doing so in this post). I will not repeat the content of that argument, but the conclusion is that the content of "therefore" passage is precisely what one would expect the writer of Ephesians to have produced, if he has just stated that salvation is not limited to Jews, that is to those who do the works of the Law of Moses.

So, this alone is compelling reason to conclude that "works" in Eph 2:9 are works of the Law of Moses. There is no strict "law" that Paul, even if he did write Ephesians, must always use the exact same turn of phrase to refer to the practices of the Law of Moses. In fact, the content of the "therefore" passage in Ephesians 2 fits so perfectly - and I suggest you cannot challenge this - with a "works of the law" reading of verse 9, that this alone shows you cannot apply the generalization you are putting forward.

Second, I suggest that the evidence is overwhelming to the effect that Paul, in other places, uses the term "works", without qualification, to refer to the Law of Moses.

We know that Paul uses the term "Israel" in multiple senses - at the end of Galatians, he uses the term to refer to the "Jew + Gentile" church. So even though the issue here is not "works", we already have an example of how it is dangerous to think in terms of Paul always using his terminology in a consistent manner.

Consider this passage from Romans 9:

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even (BI)the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, (BJ)pursuing a law of righteousness, did not (BK)arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over (BL)the stumbling stone,

Here, Paul uses the term "works" in verse 32. Is he referring to "good works" or to "works of the Law of Moses"?

While a "good works" reading may fit better with received reformed tradition, the "works of the Law of Moses" reading works much better with the context. In the preceding verses, Paul has argued that Gentiles are to be now included in the family of God. The line of reasoning is the same as in relation to Ephesians 2 - Paul is clearly focusing on the fact that the family of God is to be understood as not exclusive to Jews. And what is the boundary marker between Jews and Gentiles? Good works? No - works of the Law of Moses.

Paul is not saying (in this Romans 9 text) that Jews "stumbled" because they tried to "get saved by doing good works". That is an anachronistic projection of a 17th century issue into Paul's time - the Jews of Paul's day were not "pelegians", they believed their status as members of God's family was theirs by birthright.

No. Paul is saying that the Jews stumbled because they believed that they had an ethnically grounded right to membership in God's family. And although this is sometimes lost in 21st western thinking that does not respect the specifics of Palestinian culture of the times, it was the Law of Moses that functioned to demarcate the 1st century Jew from his pagan neighbour.

And this line of reasoning is significantly bolstered by this statement, dictated a few short breaths later by Paul:

Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.
2For I testify about them that they have (A)a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3For not knowing about (B)God's righteousness and (C)seeking to establish their own

The "them" in verse 1 is clearly national Israel. And what is Paul saying? That they were seeking salvation that was limited to Jews - their "own" salvation. This take on this text is further strengthened by what Paul goes on to say:

For (P)there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is (Q)Lord of (R)all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

This is an ethnic argument, not a "good works" one. The whole context of the latter half Romans 9 through the first half of 10 is dealing with the Jew - Gentile division, not "good works". So we must read "works" in 9:32 as "works of the Law of Moses".

So we have a clear counter-example to the proposal that Paul will always use the full phrase "works of the Law" when he intends to refer to the practices of the Law of Moses.

And there are other examples as well. In Romans 4:2, Paul uses the word "works" to clearly refer to "practices" which demarcatre Jew from Gentile. We have disagreed on this text in the past, but I am happy to provide the relevant arguments.
 
Certainly Ephesians 2 is about the family of God, the commonwealth of Israel, but even in those passages in Ephesians 2 that talk about those things, those passages are not about the "works of the law." In fact, in Ephesians is not about the "works of the law" anywhere from Chapter 1-6.
As I suggest is clear from an earlier post, one cannot simply assume that just because the phrase "works of the Law" is used by some authors, all references to "works" that are not further qualified by an explicit reference to "the Law" cannot be references to the works of the Law.

The "therefore" passage strongly suggests Paul is amplifying some kind of assertion that undermines Jewish privilege. And verse 9 fits that template to a "t" - if Paul is indeed saying that works of the Law of Moses do not save, then the logical next thing to say is "therefore.....Gentiles are equal members of God's family.

Which is, of course, exactly what Paul goes on to say.

I politely suggest that such an argument is so compelling that the only option available to challenge it is to suggest, on other grounds, that the term "works" cannot, a priori, be a reference to the works of the Law of Moses. And, as we have seen, there are other examples where "works" is indeed used to refer to the practices of the Mosaic Law, even where the term "works" is not immediately followed "....of the Law".

Besides, let's assume that your "rule" is correct - that a reference to "works" without the "of the law" addenda cannot be a reference to the works of the Law of Moses.

Then we have a puzzle on our hand - Paul has just told us (on your view) that good works do not save (in verse 9). Fine. But the problem is this: a "therefore" paragraph which so carefully and repeatedly emphasizes the integration of the Gentile into the family of God is entirely irrelevant to such an assertion - such material does not logically follow from a denial of salvation by "good works". Are you suggesting that it was widely believed that all Jews did good works and that all Gentiles did not? That would need to be the pre-supposition in order for the "therefore" passage to truly be a "therefore" passage in respect to what has just been asserted.

In other words, if it were the case that it was believed that Jews were "good works" doers, and Gentiles were not, then, perhaps, the "therefore" paragraph could be seen as a logical consequence of a denial that good works are the basis for salvation. On such a view, the Jew could boast "I do good works while you Gentiles do not".

But then, of course, we would have problems with this statement from Romans 2:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

....a clear and unambiguous assertion that "good deeds" are indeed salvific.

Now, I realize that there is more to your argument so please allow me to also respond to the rest of your post.
 
Even when Paul uses the term "Law" it is in a local context in Eph 2:15 which is in a context that is not about its relationship to Grace. It is merely a comment that the law was set aside. It is related only to the breaking down of the middle wall of partition.
But the relevant point is this: While Paul is indeed saying the Law has been set aside, he says it in the context of a "therefore" paragraph which repeatedly affirms that Gentiles have now been integrated into the family of God together with the Jew. Naturally, a "therefore" passage with such an emphasis will cause the reader to look earlier in the chapter for some statement which "sets up" this conclusion that the Gentile is now on equal footing with the Jew.

And, although this is exceedingly damaging to your position, the statement in question is this:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast

If we are open to the possibility that "works" here denotes "works of the Law of Moses (and this is, a priori, just as a good a possibility as reading this as "good works"), then we can see the logic of Paul's argument: The Jew cannot boast in salvation through his ethnic privelege as marked out by the works of the Law of Moses, therefore God has brought together Jew and Gentile into one family marked out not by an ethic charter such as the Torah but instead by faith.

And, in this context, a statement about the abolition of the Law of Moses is precisely the kind of thing one would want to assert if one had just denied Jewish ethnic privilege. Why? Because the Law of Moses was seen by the Jew as marking them out as "God's people" to the exclusion of the Gentile.

Yet another piece of evidence that, in verses 8 and 9, the writer is denying salvation by the works of the Law of Moses, otherwise salvation would indeed be for Jews only.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
But the relevant point is this: While Paul is indeed saying the Law has been set aside, he says it in the context of a "therefore" paragraph which repeatedly affirms that Gentiles have now been integrated into the family of God together with the Jew. Naturally, a "therefore" passage with such an emphasis will cause the reader to look earlier in the chapter for some statement which "sets up" this conclusion that the Gentile is now on equal footing with the Jew.

And, although this is exceedingly damaging to your position, the statement in question is this:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast

If we are open to the possibility that "works" here denotes "works of the Law of Moses (and this is, a priori, just as a good a possibility as reading this as "good works"), then we can see the logic of Paul's argument: The Jew cannot boast in salvation through his ethnic privelege as marked out by the works of the Law of Moses, therefore God has brought together Jew and Gentile into one family marked out not by an ethic charter such as the Torah but instead by faith.

And, in this context, a statement about the abolition of the Law of Moses is precisely the kind of thing one would want to assert if one had just denied Jewish ethnic privilege. Why? Because the Law of Moses was seen by the Jew as marking them out as "God's people" to the exclusion of the Gentile.

Yet another piece of evidence that, in verses 8 and 9, the writer is denying salvation by the works of the Law of Moses, otherwise salvation would indeed be for Jews only.


Drew, I want to say two things. I am glad you look at the text. I recognize that you give the text an honest effort. I see so many that really do not bother to wrestle with the text much.

On the other hand, I think you are really way off base in Ephesians and seem totally clueless what any part of the text is saying. I am wondering if you have even one verse in Ephesians 2 right. Maybe the feelings are mutual in that respect, but let me go through the text and demonstrate how verses 1 to 10 are a unit that speaks of human inability.


Verses 1-3..... 1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,
2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience;
3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:--

***Verse 1 begins with a presentation of the problem of all men. They are born dead in sins and trespasses. Verse 3 raises the problem to the level of human nature. Verse 3 tells us what this "dead in sins and trespasses is all about." Verse 3 says we are rebels by nature... "by nature children of wrath." We can no more stop our rebellion then grow jump to Saturn in one leap. Both our inability to jump into space in one leap and stopping our rebellion is an issue of human nature and its inability. We are by nature dead in sins and trespasses.
***First, you read man as not dead and in rebellion. You see man as still capable of pleasing God and doing good works. Verses 1-3 are clear that man does only works that displease God and bring wrath.

Of course the answer to this problem is found in Verses 4 to 5. Verse 4-5 tells us that God overcame this deficiency of human rebellion and the nature of sins and trespasses. He did this by the fact that he "made alive" while we "were dead through our trespasses."
4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),
**** Now the term "made alive" is not something we can do to ourselves by our own works. That is something your interpretation demands. So then, your reading of verse 8 contradicts verse 1 and 3, and not it also is not in accord with verse 5. The term "made alive" is in the passive voice in greek. We had absolutely no part in making ourselves alive. Verse 4 begins with the term "but God." He is the subject of the sentence and the one doing the work. In your view of verse 8, we make ourselves alive and God helps a little by his grace. Of course that is absurd. The whole context is against such an absurd reading.

I love verse 7... 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: While I love the verse, you are saying that God shows us a little bit of his grace but we do some of the work too. When God shows his his grace in the ages to come, I think we will see how small and little we really are. We will be on our knees, not standing and boasting about the works we were able to do that contribued to our own salvation.

After all this, Paul writes verse 8 which is so obviously connected to the first 7 vereses and not some wrong Pharisaical concept of the law. Paul tells these Gentile Ephesian Christians that salvation is by grace and not works. At this point the reader of Ephesians knows that he cannot make himself alive (verse 1 and 5), that he is dead in sins and trespasses so much that he is "by nature a child of wrath." How would the reader take verse 8? Obviously not with reference to merely the works of the law of Moses, but as total and complete inability to do anything at all that pleases God.




Drew, we should not only talk about the material before verse 11 and the therefore, but we should talk about the material after verse 11. You do not even get that part right. Even the part after verse 11 is not talking about the Pharisaical misuse of the Law. Paul is not even talking to Jews. Notice verse 11.
11 Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands
First, notice Paul is not talking to Jews. He is writing to Gentiles. They are gentiles who are not circumcised and have no interest in being circumcised. The text merely mentions circumcision in the sense that it is the Jews that used language like this. This has nothing to do with a Judiaser concept that Gentiles must be circumcised.
*** I think in you mind you make these leaps. You see terms and do not read sentences. You see the term "circumcise" and so you make this leap to Judiaser issues. There is no such concept of "the works of the law" found in this verse. Paul is merely speaking to Gentiles and telling them what Jews call them.

In verse 15.....
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace;
In this verse he is not talking about the Judiasers and their insistence that Gentiles keep the law. Far from it Paul is saying the opposite. He is not even talking about the keeping of the law here. He is talking about how Jews and Gentiles were made one people when God abolished the Law. That concept is a far distance from the Judiaser concept of "keeping the law for righteousness."

Drew, my point is that the concept of doing the "works of the law" is not found in Ephesians 2:8, but it is not found anywhere in the book of Ephesians. I am not saying that it is not merely absent from 2:8, I am saying it is absent from the entire book.
 
Back
Top