The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Eventide]

Re: The TRUTH of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

And you will PAY for it, too. :yes

Do you deliver to MA ?

 

[francisdesales]

Re: The effects of the Death of Christ !

Scriptures that show the efficaciousness of the death of Christ, that it actually saves, and so those who are not being saved, Christ did not die for them..

Jn 12:


23And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Christ saving death is how He is Glorified..

Jesus here in these verses is speaking of Himself and the Church, His body.. For it shall come forth out of death with Him, a Living and Spotless Church, Justified by His blood and righteousness.

Its a faithful saying, if we be dead with Him, that is died when He died [ 2 cor 5:14-15] we shall also live with Him, that is experience the power of His resurrection..

All for whom He died, will be raised from spiritual death, begotten unto a lively hope, how ? By the resurrection from the dead 1 pet 1:


3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

So as Jesus states in Jn 12 24, His death [ to include His resurrection] brings forth much fruit..That is, it actually produces positive results and benefits for them He died..

You are yet again adding ideas to Scriptures that are not found in the written text. I have shown this over and over again, most recently in Romans 5. But you ignore it and move on, and then regurgitate it again a month later. One must wonder why you strongly defend Calvinism, rather than what God's Word actually says...

 

[savedbygrace57]

fran:

Where does it say all will be made righteous?

All of the many that Christ died for shall be made righteous rom 5:


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[savedbygrace57]

fran:

You are yet again adding ideas to Scriptures that are not found in the written text.

Whats wrong with post 760 ? Point out whats not biblical..

 

[francisdesales]

fran:



Whats wrong with post 760 ? Point out whats not biblical..

Right after we re-visit your faulty reading of Romans 5. I am not playing the "jump around the Bible" game with you again...

 

[francisdesales]

fran:



All of the many that Christ died for shall be made righteous rom 5:


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

A wonderful example of "begging the question".

Paul distinguishes between "all" and "many" in verse 18 and 19.

 

[Scotth1960]

What scripture states that Jesus Christ died for all mankind without exception ? I cannot take your word for it.

And whats funny and odd, all the scriptures you quoted, not one stated that Jesus christ died for all mankind without exception.

Dear savedbygrace, What Scripture states that Christ did not die for all mankind? What is so difficult to understand in John 3:16.? World means world, means all mankind. It is reading Calvinism into the text that twists the Scriptures to their own destructions. Calvinists cannot get past their rationalism, their TULIP. Which was not taught in the early Church. If Calvinism were true, it would have been taught by all of the Church Fathers. In Erie Scott Harrington'

 

[savedbygrace57]

Dear savedbygrace, What Scripture states that Christ did not die for all mankind?

The ones that specify who He died for i.e the many matt 20:28

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

heb 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;

i.e sheep Jn 10:11

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

i.e the church eph 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

None of these mean all of humanity without exception, but a certain portion of mankind..

And because the sheep, the many, the church can have more than one, they can all be qualified by the word all or every as in all the sheep, or all the members of the church or body of Christ..

But to go beyond that is only assumption and has no biblical support.

And on top of that, all for whom Christ died, by His death they are made righteous rom 5:


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So if one is never made righteous, Christ did not die for them..

 

[savedbygrace57]

fran:

Paul distinguishes between "all" and "many" in verse 18 and 19.

They are the same group unless paul specfies they are not, for its the same subject matter..

 

[francisdesales]

fran:

They are the same group unless paul specfies they are not, for its the same subject matter..

You are mistaken, for Paul makes a comparison between Adam and Jesus. Clearly, Paul has in mind the UNIVERSAL sin applied UNIVERSALLY to EVERY MAN when he speaks of Adam. He then provides an "if/then" argument, linking the two together to show that Jesus' universal act was BETTER than Paul's universal act. Thus, verse 18 MUST refer to EVERY man, not a group of men (elect). THis would defeat the entire argument of Paul, and Jesus act was INFERIOR to Adam's. In addition, why would Paul call Jesus "Adam"? Why not Abraham?

No, Adam is applied to Jesus because HE, like Adam, worked for the sake of ALL men, every single human being.

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 5:17-18


Note the argument. Verse 17 "if by one man's offense" "so much more" Jesus.
Verse 18, "therefore", AS judgment came to ALL men, so the gift came to ALL men. Each of the "all" must refer to EVERY man, for the first "all" refers to the entire human race. The argument has no force if the second "all" is only for the elect.

Clearly, Verse 17-18 show that Jesus, as the Second Adam, provides a correction for what the first Adam did. It is universally applied, otherwise, Jesus cannot be called the "Second Adam". If it was only for the elect, then Jesus should have been called the "Second Abraham". And verse 19, Paul changes from "all" to "many". He clearly does not believe "all" men now become righteous.

Regards

 

[Proverbs3/5]

Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

After 50+ pages on this thread and of course the FULL council of God (His Word) , it has been proven beyond a doubt that Jesus Christ died for ALL men (humanity) without exception, and that fact is NOT a myth. I believe this thread started out wrong by stating the fact that "Christ died for all men" is a myth.

Francis, very well put:

You are mistaken, for Paul makes a comparison between Adam and Jesus. Clearly, Paul has in mind the UNIVERSAL sin applied UNIVERSALLY to EVERY MAN when he speaks of Adam. He then provides an "if/then" argument, linking the two together to show that Jesus' universal act was BETTER than Paul's universal act. Thus, verse 18 MUST refer to EVERY man, not a group of men (elect). THis would defeat the entire argument of Paul, and Jesus act was INFERIOR to Adam's. In addition, why would Paul call Jesus "Adam"? Why not Abraham?

No, Adam is applied to Jesus because HE, like Adam, worked for the sake of ALL men, every single human being.

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 5:17-18


Note the argument. Verse 17 "if by one man's offense" "so much more" Jesus.
Verse 18, "therefore", AS judgment came to ALL men, so the gift came to ALL men. Each of the "all" must refer to EVERY man, for the first "all" refers to the entire human race. The argument has no force if the second "all" is only for the elect.

Clearly, Verse 17-18 show that Jesus, as the Second Adam, provides a correction for what the first Adam did. It is universally applied, otherwise, Jesus cannot be called the "Second Adam". If it was only for the elect, then Jesus should have been called the "Second Abraham". And verse 19, Paul changes from "all" to "many". He clearly does not believe "all" men now become righteous.

Regards

 

[savedbygrace57]

prov:

it has been proven beyond a doubt that Jesus Christ died for ALL men (humanity) without exception

In your imagination..

 

[francisdesales]

prov:



In your imagination..

And the Bible.

 

[Pizzaguy]

Re: The TRUTH of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

Do you deliver to MA ?

No, but I could fly up and cook one for you... $1200 with one week notice!

 

[savedbygrace57]

Scriptures that show the efficaciousness of the death of Christ !

We know that Christ death was not for all without exception because of its efficaciousness in producing saving results..

It shall make many righteous rom 5:


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

No less than Adams disobedience making many sinners by nature and practice, Christ obedience [His Death phil 2:8] shall make many righteous in nature and practice..​

 

[Scotth1960]

The ones that specify who He died for i.e the many matt 20:28

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

heb 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;

i.e sheep Jn 10:11

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

i.e the church eph 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

None of these mean all of humanity without exception, but a certain portion of mankind..

And because the sheep, the many, the church can have more than one, they can all be qualified by the word all or every as in all the sheep, or all the members of the church or body of Christ..

But to go beyond that is only assumption and has no biblical support.

And on top of that, all for whom Christ died, by His death they are made righteous rom 5:


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So if one is never made righteous, Christ did not die for them..

Dear friend, Did Christ die for the whole world, for all people? YES. I John 2:2 ESV: "He is the propitiation [expiation] for our sins, and not our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world". The whole world. Don't twist the Scriptures, dear Calvinist. Whole means whole, means all people in the whole world.
In Erie PA Scott Harrington

​

 

[francisdesales]

Scriptures that show the efficaciousness of the death of Christ !

We know that Christ death was not for all without exception because of its efficaciousness in producing saving results..

It shall make many righteous rom 5:


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

No less than Adams disobedience making many sinners by nature and practice, Christ obedience [His Death phil 2:8] shall make many righteous in nature and practice..
​

Again, you simply refuse to read what is there in Scriptures. Christ died for all, and many were made righteous (not "all", Paul drops that adjective here after just using it several times in the verse before). God desires men to repent before Christ's work is applied and made efficacious. The gift is given to all, but not all are made righteous because some choose to reject God. And NO, God doesn't make them reject Him (which is what your "theory" requires one to accept...)

Regards

 

[Pizzaguy]

Scriptures that show the efficaciousness of the death of Christ !

We know that Christ death was not for all without exception because of its efficaciousness in producing saving results..

It shall make many righteous rom 5:


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

No less than Adams disobedience making many sinners by nature and practice, Christ obedience [His Death phil 2:8] shall make many righteous in nature and practice..​

I know that this is just an internet message board, but I think you come dangerously close to "tempting" God with these kind of statements.

Ever wonder if He might want to use your words against you someday? "Hey, so, my Son didn't die for all? Fine - he didn't die for YOU. Depart from me..."

No, I'd be very careful here. Always remember that what you type here is remembered - somewhere.

 

[savedbygrace57]

pg:

I know that this is just an internet message board, but I think you come dangerously close to "tempting" God with these kind of statements.

What statements ? Point them out and explain why they are dangerous..

The ones you quoted of mine says this:

We know that Christ death was not for all without exception because of its efficaciousness in producing saving results..

It shall make many righteous rom 5:


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

No less than Adams disobedience making many sinners by nature and practice, Christ obedience [His Death phil 2:8] shall make many righteous in nature and practice..

What tempts God in that quote ?
​

 

[savedbygrace57]

fran:

Again, you simply refuse to read what is there in Scriptures. Christ died for all, and many were made righteous

Yes, all of the many were made righteous..The scripture is clear that He died for many matt 20:

28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.