The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[HisSheep]

I hope you catch this truthful drift. It's meant only for 'accuracy' to text and honesty in doctrines. None of us should be cutting the tempter ANY kind of slack on any measure.

I’m not cutting the tempter ANY slack. In fact, I’m saying that he is SO powerful, that I cannot withstand him at all. God alone can do that and He does it only on behalf of His elect.

The devil is SO powerful, that I can not resist him in my natural state. I must have a supernatural God holding my hand! I cannot CHOOSE God while I am DEAD in trespasses and sin (Ephesians 2:1), walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience. (Ephesian 2:2)

The tempter, in the view I hold, is like the evil deeds of Joseph's brothers... They thought to do evil, but God INTENDED it all for good. The devil plays right into God's hand! Otherwise, the devil is seen to be a REAL challenge to the will of God.

If we faced this reality a lot of our differences would disappear in Truth and we would see who our real enemies are. The divisions in christianity are just stupidity personified.

Please don’t present proponents of the doctrines of grace as the sowers of division… The division is brought in by liberal theology which denies grace.

Once a false doctrine is brought in, it is RIGHT to call it what it is, just as Paul confronted Peter RE: the Judiazers. (Acts 15)

Liberal theology contorts grace to mean “God offers salvation to everyone, but it must be accepted by man to be effective.†This may seem “fair†to man, but it is not grace at all.

This construct strips the grace OUT OF salvation altogether, making it an act of MAN!

Grace is God doing ALL of the work of salvation in the lives of His elect, just as He did ALL the work in the deliverance of Israel.

Grace means “unmerited favorâ€. If God treats all men the same way, then he has not had favor toward any…

-HisSheep

 

[smaller]

I’m not cutting the tempter ANY slack. In fact, I’m saying that he is SO powerful, that I cannot withstand him at all. God alone can do that and He does it only on behalf of His elect.

The devil is SO powerful, that I can not resist him in my natural state. I must have a supernatural God holding my hand! I cannot CHOOSE God while I am DEAD in trespasses and sin (Ephesians 2:1), walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience. (Ephesian 2:2)

The tempter, in the view I hold, is like the evil deeds of Joseph's brothers... They thought to do evil, but God INTENDED it all for good. The devil plays right into God's hand! Otherwise, the devil is seen to be a REAL challenge to the will of God.

Please don’t present proponents of the doctrines of grace as the sowers of division… The division is brought in by liberal theology which denies grace.

Once a false doctrine is brought in, it is RIGHT to call it what it is, just as Paul confronted Peter RE: the Judiazers. (Acts 15)

Again, you miss the point entirely. So, since you can't seem to get the picture that the tempter is with believers also, and that 'entity' that is 'with' believers but 'is not' the believer and that it logically follows that is factually how we all as believers stand, and that no form of GRACE, MERCY, TRUTH, FAITH or anything of like such matters apply to that TEMPTER with believers, the point will just have to stand unaddressed as apparently you just can't see this fact.

s

 

[HisSheep]

Don't give up on me, Smaller.

I'm sorry that I keep missing your point... Or am I?

I'm not trying to, honest. Please don't think that I am being intentional in missing your point. I'm not dishonest like that.

Do you mean the sort of thing that Paul addresses here:

17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (Romans 7)

It THAT what you're talking about?

-HisSheep

 

[smaller]

Don't give up on me, Smaller.

I'm sorry that I keep missing your point... Or am I?

I'm not trying to, honest. Please don't think that I am being intentional in missing your point. I'm not dishonest like that.

Do you mean the sort of thing that Paul addresses here:

17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (Romans 7)

It THAT what you're talking about?

-HisSheep

Certainly those facts and many more. If you acknowledge, which you seem to, that the tempter does enter the mind/heart to do this:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

and 'sin is of the devil' then any simple form of reasoning means we're not alone.

So, yeah, you almost hit the scriptural reality jackpot.

s

 

[HisSheep]

It’s good that we’ve found some common ground.
Yes, there is a real tempter. I can see sin in my own thoughts and life; even though I’m saved. I know that others can see it in themselves, too... if they’ve been convicted of their sin... A person can’t read the bible for very long before it makes their sin apparent. When I read the biblical account of Israel, I see my own nature on display.

I can see it in my children. It was there since they were old enough to try to take an extra m&m… My daughter, at age 5, saw scratch tickets in the convenience store and asked me what they were. That led to our first discussion about sin. I described the feeling to her; how it almost speaks to you… “Go ahead, what are the chances you’ll loose twice!?†and “you’ve won 10 dollars, why not try for more…â€

I think she really got the idea.

It is very important for people to understand the source of that voice. The earlier the better.

However! For the believer (The real-deal, born again believer; not the rocky-soil believer.) the tempter plays into God’s hands. There are no biblical examples of God getting one-uped by Satan. Satan is a looser. God is the winner.

Satan ends up being a tool for God’s will. Satan IS earnest in his attempts to lead the elect away from the shepherd, but he is a looser. The sheep may stray, but ultimately they LEARN to draw nearer to the Lord. That is Gods plan, and has been all along. The very presence of Satan in the world assists in the sanctification of the saints. This life is the fire in which God is refining His people:

And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.(Zechariah 13:9)

The tares are tares. They will always be tares. Tares do not “become†wheat. Nor do goats "become" sheep. If that were so, there would be ONE parable or teaching that said so. God has known the sheep from the beginning… He has said that he knows them. He has said that He will gather them. He has said He will loose NONE of them.

Salvation is a means to an end! His purpose is not to save the elect, but to conform them to the likeness of His son, Jesus. Saving them is just part of how that conformation gets accomplished. Our learning to choose God’s way over our own way is also part of it, and it must happen in a hostile environment in which an alluring alternative is present. Likewise, sickness, sorrow, and loss will also teach us to lean on God. That is God’s purpose in trials. It is not that the devil is winning… Even in the book if Job, the devil had his day, BUT God was actually the victor. He was writing the book of Job for you and I!

Under what other exegesis would we be told to rejoice alway?

How could we rejoice if God is loosing 2/3 of the souls He intends to save? We should be weeping if that's the case! That would make Him a looooser of a god. He would be shamed!

Our God is not a 33% god; He is a 100% God, fulfilling His EVERY purpose! Praise our God who is MIGHTY to save!

Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. (Isaiah 63:1)

-HisSheep

 

[smaller]

It’s good that we’ve found some common ground.
Yes, there is a real tempter. I can see sin in my own thoughts and life; even though I’m saved. I know that others can see it in themselves, too... if they’ve been convicted of their sin... A person can’t read the bible for very long before it makes their sin apparent. When I read the biblical account of Israel, I see my own nature on display.

I can see it in my children. It was there since they were old enough to try to take an extra m&m… My daughter, at age 5, saw scratch tickets in the convenience store and asked me what they were. That led to our first discussion about sin. I described the feeling to her; how it almost speaks to you… “Go ahead, what are the chances you’ll loose twice!?†and “you’ve won 10 dollars, why not try for more…â€

I think she really got the idea.

It is very important for people to understand the source of that voice. The earlier the better.

However! For the believer (The real-deal, born again believer; not the rocky-soil believer.) the tempter plays into God’s hands. There are no biblical examples of God getting one-uped by Satan. Satan is a looser. God is the winner.

You might consider that admission of the fact rather than an internal coverup is a showing of Truth within. Was Satan then my adversary? Or a power brought to see if I would admit what is in my heart? IN the later I serve Truth by being 'truthful.' And this is my gain from God in division and not lying about the fact.

There is me. There is the adversary. I do not mistake these matters, neither do I have to lie before God about it. God works with me as His child. God works against the other working. It's always His choice how to make it all work together for good, and in the end to both show and prove His Own Glory over same. IN that I see His Wisdom in the deployment and allowance of the tempter. Just as Pharaoh was raised up, that same physical man was a showing of the invisible tempter. The natural man Pharaoh served Gods Power over him. Satan is no different, but a working of His Spirit in POWER over that evil spirit, that EVIL one.

Satan ends up being a tool for God’s will. Satan IS earnest in his attempts to lead the elect away from the shepherd, but he is a looser. The sheep may stray, but ultimately they LEARN to draw nearer to the Lord. That is Gods plan, and has been all along. The very presence of Satan in the world assists in the sanctification of the saints. This life is the fire in which God is refining His people:

And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.(Zechariah 13:9)

The tares are tares. They will always be tares. Tares do not “become†wheat. Nor do goats "become" sheep.

Listen closely to this Hissheep, put your right ear real real close before the snatcher rips you off and you may not be able to hear or perceive this matter. You carry a goat in the form of the tempter and the weed also. Those are not matters of people, but of what we carry.

Here is what appeared next to the blade once it sprang forth from the ground.

Matthew 13:26
But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

That is a picture of you or I as a believer understanding who the tare is and where it exists, that is in our own dark ground.

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one

Where was that wicked one again? Oh yeah, tempting IN MIND and HEART.

other people? what was I thinking? duh...how can we be SOOOO dull?

Think on that for awhile before getting back to me. See if you can retain it or be pawned. Then I'll hope to see a sheep in Truth.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[savedbygrace57]

Damnable heresies !

2 Pet 2:1

1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


The Most Popular Damnable Heresy in this generation is that of Christ died for everyone in the world to make salvation possible ! The word damnable is the greek word apōleia and means:

destroying, utter destruction

a) of vessels

2) a perishing, ruin, destruction

a) of money

b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell

The word heresy is the greek word hairesis and means:

) act of taking, capture: e.g. storming a city

2) choosing, choice

3) that which is chosen

4) a body of men following their own tenets (sect or party)

a) of the Sadducees

b) of the Pharisees

c) of the Christians

5) dissensions arising from diversity of opinions and aims

It is the choosing of a opinion that is opposed to the Christian Faith revealed in scripture !

These opinions are erroneous and destructive !

Now one of the reasons that the lie of Jesus Christ dying for all without to make Salvation merely possible, is because this way man can become his or her own saviour or deliver. If the Death of Christ only provided an opportunity to get saved, if it only made salvation possible or available, then one is saved actually not because of what Christ did, but because of what man does !

This makes man saved or justified by their works, and they become righteous by their obedience, which opposes the Gospel Truth Paul preached here Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[smaller]

The entire notion that one is saved via correct doctrines is in itself quite heretical.

Seems like the entirety of the churches have fallen into that notion and wind up exactly on 'self justifications' of every sort, the above being probably the biggest one.

Saved by faith + some perfect constructs of doctrines.

Determinists would do themselves well to see Paul's statement that we see only in part. Supposedly perfect doctrines are partial sights and can logically and reasonably be no other.

There are many sitting on self or man constructed thrones of 'perfect doctrines' thinking that is their salvation.

s

 

[HisSheep]

Listen closely to this Hissheep, put your right ear real real close before the snatcher rips you off and you may not be able to hear or perceive this matter. You carry a goat in the form of the tempter and the weed also. Those are not matters of people, but of what we carry.

Here is what appeared next to the blade once it sprang forth from the ground.

Matthew 13:26

But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

That is a picture of you or I as a believer understanding who the tare is and where it exists, that is in our own dark ground.

You make it sound like believers have a tare within themselves… Is that what you are saying? Why must you be so cryptic? It gets tiring.

Jesus describes the parable and tells us directly that the Wheat represent the Sons of the Kingdom (the elect) and the tares are the children of wicked one (those who are NOT elect.)

To turn this parable into a teaching about the internal sin conflict is irresponsible; almost like making up your own parable, all the while suggesting that it is from the bible.

It sounds like you are doubting verses such as this one:

Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. (1 John 4:4)

Matthew 13:38

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one

Where was that wicked one again? Oh yeah, tempting IN MIND and HEART.

other people? what was I thinking? duh...how can we be SOOOO dull?

Think on that for awhile before getting back to me. See if you can retain it or be pawned. Then I'll hope to see a sheep in Truth.

Why the condescending tone?

Here, you have cited Jesus’ explanation that I just referred to.

Yes indeed, the tares are the people destined for destruction. They cannot hear the truth of the gospel because they are not of God. Nevertheless, they are left in place for the entire gowing season.... all for the sake of the wheat!

The tares are NOT evil, internal forces within the Christian. In other matters, I think we agree. Yes?

-HisSheep

 

[smaller]

You make it sound like believers have a tare within themselves… Is that what you are saying? Why must you be so cryptic? It gets tiring.

Uh, yeah. It's called sin which is of the devil.

Jesus describes the parable and tells us directly that the Wheat represent the Sons of the Kingdom (the elect) and the tares are the children of wicked one (those who are NOT elect.)

Your depiction then is that people are devils and that doesn't cut it when there is obviously 'a devil' already in that role.

To turn this parable into a teaching about the internal sin conflict is irresponsible; almost like making up your own parable, all the while suggesting that it is from the bible.

Tares are children of the wicked one. Who is the wicked one? The devil also has 'children.' They are also called devils. Again, the need to see these as people doesn't cut it.

It sounds like you are doubting verses such as this one:

Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. (1 John 4:4) Why the condescending tone?

Stating a fact, AGAIN, that if the tempter is in mind and heart to tempt, it is not 'just the believer.' Is there something cryptic about this fact? Maybe only in the ones who can't hear the fact.

Here, you have cited Jesus’ explanation that I just referred to.

Yes indeed, the tares are the people destined for destruction.

Tares are children of the wicked one. Do you see the devil running around having sex and making people? lol Some however sadly go there.

They cannot hear the truth of the gospel because they are not of God. Nevertheless, they are left in place for the entire gowing season.... all for the sake of the wheat!

They can't hear for the same reason you couldn't prior. The 'god of this world' blinds their minds to the Gospel. So, what AGAIN do you see as a fact? You should see the person and THE BLINDER (as an entirely different entity.) The SAME blinder that was upon 'our' minds prior to belief.

I have no need to see these matters apart from open facts.

The tares are NOT evil, internal forces within the Christian. In other matters, I think we agree. Yes?

The tares are children of the wicked one who is THE DEVIL. If the TEMPTER is in the mind/heart of a believer, which anyone should be able to truthfully admit, where then is the 'wicked one?' And why would a 'tare,' a child of the devil, A DEMON, A DEVIL, not be A TARE? The math seems pretty clear to me.

Paul had a devil put upon him. Paul was a child of God. The messenger of Satan, A DEVIL upon him was certainly A TARE as a child of the wicked one. It's not like we don't have open examples of this fact.

Religious people have a hard time coming to grips with this matter because they are led to 'excuse' the tempter in them BY the blindness induced by same.

s

 

[HisSheep]

Your depiction then is that people are devils and that doesn't cut it when there is obviously 'a devil' already in that role..

?!People are devils?! Whu...?

Tares are children of the wicked one. Who is the wicked one? The devil also has 'children.' They are also called devils. Again, the need to see these as people doesn't cut it....

....Religious people have a hard time coming to grips with this matter because they are led to 'excuse' the tempter in them BY the blindness induced by same.

Smaller, I have to tell you, you have a really condescending tone. Perhaps you don’t intend it, but there it is… I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I am not trying to “excuse the tempterâ€â€¦ (You’re very dramatic!)

When explaining the Wheat and Tares Jesus says that the Wheat represent the children of the Kingdom, and the Tares are the children of the devil.

I simply take that to mean that the Wheat are the elect and the Tares are not. In other words, the wheat are the saved and the tares are the damned. I’ve never heard it interpreted ANY other way. Have you? This is the common interpretation.

Jesus uses similar “Child of God/Child of the devil†language in John 8 (among other places)

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (John 8:42)

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44)

Here, Jesus is talking not to “devils†but to Pharisees (unbelievers trapped in their tradition). He referred to those PEOPLE as the children of the devil.

I relate this parable (wheat and tares) to all the other agricultural references in the bible and conclude that the wheat (in this parable) is God’s intended crop, and the weeds will be burned up.

There IS a real, honest to Pete tempter, but he is not symbolized by the Tares.

It doesn’t require an extra biblical agenda to see things this way.

-HisSheep

 

[smaller]

?!People are devils?! Whu...?Smaller, I have to tell you, you have a really condescending tone. Perhaps you don’t intend it, but there it is… I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

And I'm patiently trying to get you up to speed in having a simple factual conversation recognizing the again simple fact that believers 'do not consist' of only believers. There is the believer and there is the tempter.

Two, two, two separate entities.

You'll have to pardon me when I see the fact, account for it, and how that fact applies has just kept sailing by your head multiple times.

Here, Jesus is talking not to “devils†but to Pharisees (unbelievers trapped in their tradition). He referred to those PEOPLE as the children of the devil.

You just expressed credulity over my shock at your level of understanding making people devils, and now you do it again.

Seriously. When Jesus, from His own mouth calls someone or any given group children of the devil, guess what they are? Uh, DEVILS. How anyone could read the N.T. Gospels and 'not' come away with the understanding that there are two, two, two PARTIES involved within ONE lump of flesh and Jesus casting out devils shown on almost every page of the N.T. Gospels and then say people are devils tells me only one thing:

You've heard enough from me. Understanding is blocked for Divine Reasons.

later

s

 

[Denique Coelum]

And I'm patiently trying to get you up to speed in having a simple factual conversation recognizing the again simple fact that believers 'do not consist' of only believers. There is the believer and there is the tempter.

Two, two, two separate entities.

You'll have to pardon me when I see the fact, account for it, and how that fact applies has just kept sailing by your head multiple times.


You just expressed credulity over my shock at your level of understanding making people devils, and now you do it again.

Seriously. When Jesus, from His own mouth calls someone or any given group children of the devil, guess what they are? Uh, DEVILS. How anyone could read the N.T. Gospels and 'not' come away with the understanding that there are two, two, two PARTIES involved within ONE lump of flesh and Jesus casting out devils shown on almost every page of the N.T. Gospels and then say people are devils tells me only one thing:

You've heard enough from me. Understanding is blocked for Divine Reasons.

later

s

I have to agree with HisSheep on this particular point. In this instance 'Children of the devil' refers to the unregenerate man, the unbeliever, ensnared by the artifices of Satan, rather than actual devils or demons.

This phraseology is used a number of times in Scripture. In 1 John 3 v 10, we have:

"In this are manifest the children of God and the children of the devil. Whoever does not practise righteousness is not of God, and he who does not love his brother."

This would give us to understand that those who do not practise righteousness are children of the devil, in that their works originate from his will.

Again, in John's Gospel 8 v 44:

"Ye are of the devil, as your father, and ye desire to do the lusts of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks falsehood, he speaks of what is his own; for he is a liar and its father..."

Here we have the devil again identified as the father of unrighteousness, the progenitor of infidelity, if you like.

In Ephesians, we have mention of the "sons of disobedience":

"...and you, being dead in your offences and sins - in which ye once walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (Ephesians 2 v 1).

To my mind, sons of disobedience are sons of the devil, and his spirit works in them with a view to unrighteousness.

Another Scripture which may have a bearing on our discussion can be found in 1 Kings 21 v 3:

"And there came the two men, sons of Belial, and sat before him; and the men of Belial witnessed against him, against Naboth, in the presence of the people, saying, Naboth blasphemed God and the king. And they carried him forth out of the city, and stoned him with stones, that he died."


Here we have two men, clearly in the service of Satan, their master, as denoted by the term 'sons of Belial', bearing false witness against Naboth.

From these Scriptures, we get an insight into how Satan operates, working in the unbeliever to his own dreadful ends. These unfortunates are not devils themselves, but in the thrall and captivity of the deceiver. In Ephesians, Paul speaks to believers, who, like all of us "once walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air" &c. We, praise be to God, have been liberated from following after the way of the world and Satan. Once, we were under his authority, being in sin, but his power over us has been broken and we're under Christ's authority. Because we were once walking in infidelity, that doesn't make us devils.

 

[savedbygrace57]

den says:

I have to agree with HisSheep on this particular point. In this
instance 'Children of the devil' refers to the unregenerate man,

Thats false, for the Children of God are unregenerated before their New Birth,in fact, God gives them New Birth because they are Sons Gal 4:6

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

The Children of God are captive by the devil because of their sinful nature, however they are not the children of the devil, ever... And what will sooner or later manifest them as the Children of God is their New Birth and doing righteousness.

1 Jn 3:10

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The word manifest here is the greek word
phaneros and means:
apparent, manifest, evident, known
2) manifest i.e to be plainly recognised or known


So it is gross error to teach that the Children of God are at one time Children of the Devil.

Their is no redemtion for the children of the devil, Christ did not die for them, in fact He said this to some of them He encountered Matt 23:32-33

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

His calling them serpents refers back to Gen 3:14-15

14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 

[Denique Coelum]

den says:



Thats false, for the Children of God are unregenerated before their New Birth,in fact, God gives them New Birth because they are Sons Gal 4:6

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

The Children of God are captive by the devil because of their sinful nature, however they are not the children of the devil, ever... And what will sooner or later manifest them as the Children of God is their New Birth and doing righteousness.

1 Jn 3:10

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The word manifest here is the greek word
phaneros and means:
apparent, manifest, evident, known
2) manifest i.e to be plainly recognised or known


So it is gross error to teach that the Children of God are at one time Children of the Devil.

Their is no redemtion for the children of the devil, Christ did not die for them, in fact He said this to some of them He encountered Matt 23:32-33

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

His calling them serpents refers back to Gen 3:14-15

14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

I absolutely agree, savedbygrace57 that we, the children of God, were unregenerate before our new birth. Ephesians 2 v 1 & 2 would assure us of that. However, I wouldn't feel confident in going as far as to say that we were once children of the devil, I would say that we were unregenerate, of the 'old man', the line of Adam. This much is stated in Scripture. I think we need help as to the former classification.

I would contest your statement that Christ did not die for all. If we examine the passage preceding the one you've highlighted for us, describing the people whom the Lord is addressing, we might get a bit more clarity:

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets and adorn the tombs of the just, and ye say, If we had been in the days of our fathers we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. So that ye bear witness of yourselves that ye are sons of those who slew the prophets: and ye, fill ye up the measure of your fathers." Matthew 23 v 29-33.

The Lord uses very strong language to describe the hypocritical religious men of the time, calling them, as you've quoted, serpents and vipers, and puts to them the question, "how should ye escape the judgment of hell?" I don't believe this is a final matter, that those spoken of are surely damned. It is very unlikely that these proud Pharisees and scribes would've put their trust in the Saviour, but I don't think we can rule it out. Christ laid down his life for all, without exception, but at the same time, He knew that certain ones would continue in their wickedness, to death and judgement, rejecting Him. I think the penitent thief on the cross is an example to us of God's grace in this matter. We have a man who has made a living from robbery and is rapidly approaching the end of his life, yet he is saved through a final act of faith in Jesus. The apostle Paul is another well-known example of one who was a determined evil-doer, yet was transformed for the service of the testimony.

I don't think we can limit the scope of salvation. Isaiah 59 v 1 would confirm this: "Behold, Jehovah's hand is not shortened that it cannot save, neither his ear heavy that it cannot hear..."

As to the original thought of whether or not children of the devil can be saved, I think 1 John 3 v 8 might have a bearing on this:

"He that practises sin is of the devil; for from the beginning the devil sins. To this end the Son of God has been manifested, that he might undo the works of the devil."

I would say that 'children of the devil' is strong language to use about someone, but could adequately describe those who are unconverted and going on in a worldly pathway, ruled by the lusts of the flesh. One might consider that the apostle Paul was once a 'child of the devil', since he went about breathing threatenings and slaughter against God's people, yet he was recovered and the works of the devil in him were undone and wholly reversed.

 

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I have to agree with HisSheep on this particular point. In this instance 'Children of the devil' refers to the unregenerate man, the unbeliever, ensnared by the artifices of Satan, rather than actual devils or demons.

Then you don't agree with Hissheep who admitted the entrance of the tempter into his own mind and heart to tempt. No believer 'with understanding and Truth' within denies this fact. This clearly places the tempter within us in mind and heart to tempt. You are welcome to deny that happens. I can not in Truth and in good faith make such claims or assertions.

Many believers use their sects and doctrines to avoid coming to a factual conclusion on this matter. I see all of that effort as vain attempts to cover up the obvious and to avoid factual scriptural conclusions. The fact remains that we 'all' have sin in the present tense application and 'sin is of the devil.' To say we have no sin means we are not 'in Truth.'

This phraseology is used a number of times in Scripture. In 1 John 3 v 10, we have:

"In this are manifest the children of God and the children of the devil. Whoever does not practise righteousness is not of God, and he who does not love his brother."

This would give us to understand that those who do not practise righteousness are children of the devil, in that their works originate from his will.

If you believe a mere 'sin thought' is not a sin, I would direct you to Matt. 5 and Jesus' statements about the thoughts of adultery. That same measure can be applied to 'any other sin thought.' Jesus came to 'magnify' the Law and make it honorable. To flee from the Laws conclusion that proves us all with sin is to be in denial of Gods Words and blind to very certain factual scriptural conclusions.

I'm not fond of blindness. Yet I have to admit to only partial sight to be 'in Truth.'

Again, in John's Gospel 8 v 44:

"Ye are of the devil, as your father, and ye desire to do the lusts of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks falsehood, he speaks of what is his own; for he is a liar and its father..."

Here we have the devil again identified as the father of unrighteousness, the progenitor of infidelity, if you like.

If you are looking at those men and only seeing 'men' you are missing the point entirely. The fact is that 'children of the devil' were 'with' those men. If you missed this fact that is written on nearly every page of the N.T. Gospels what can I say?

Mankind is clearly 'not alone.'

Satan spoke from the lips of Peter, entered Judas and Paul himself had 'evil present' and even a devil in his flesh. All of which is given to again prove a very certain fact about that working and the reality of it.

In Ephesians, we have mention of the "sons of disobedience":

"...and you, being dead in your offences and sins - in which ye once walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (Ephesians 2 v 1).

To my mind, sons of disobedience are sons of the devil, and his spirit works in them with a view to unrighteousness.

You are welcome to claim sinless perfection of the flesh. I don't buy that angle on any contrived basis.

Another Scripture which may have a bearing on our discussion can be found in 1 Kings 21 v 3:
"And there came the two men, sons of Belial, and sat before him; and the men of Belial witnessed against him, against Naboth, in the presence of the people, saying, Naboth blasphemed God and the king. And they carried him forth out of the city, and stoned him with stones, that he died."

Here we have two men, clearly in the service of Satan, their master, as denoted by the term 'sons of Belial', bearing false witness against Naboth.

Jesus was again clear that those who have 'no sin' are welcome to throw the first stone. All the 'stoners' went away and departed Him, convicted by Truth. Those who are called into Him will 'draw near' rather than depart and flee His facts.

From these Scriptures, we get an insight into how Satan operates, working in the unbeliever to his own dreadful ends.

Yeah, well, if your claim is 'no temptation' from the tempter I would beg to differ.

And you understand when I make these 'factual observations' I am NOT calling any believer a DEVIL. There is us and there is the tempter. TWO separate entities.

To say we are not engaged 'personally' with that enemy is not factual whatsoever. To be 'in Truth' we admit our personal engagement against the workings of the power of Satan 'in ourselves.'

enjoy!

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[Denique Coelum]

It's most definitely true that Satan is operative and tempting the flesh within us. We as Christians are open to the attacks of the devil, but, unlike the unbeliever, we have the panoply (Ephesian 6 v 11) to keep us from falling into the snares of the tempter, if we make use of it.

I would never deny that Satan tempts me, his operations are relentless with a view to spoiling what is of God and for God in me. My own sinful condition is absolutely undeniable, and I own it freely. I often make reference to Romans 3 v 23 when preaching, I find that short verse to be so incisive.

The distinction I was attempting to make (in agreeing with HisSheep) was that the individuals referred to as 'children of the devil' are not actual demons, but men who have utterly surrendered themselves to the authority of the wicked one.

I would never deny that a sinful thought is a sin. By nature, we are all sinful, and I know that I frequently sin in thought when my mind is not occupied by the things of God.

You say that mankind is clearly 'not alone'. I would entirely agree with you. In Ephesians 6 v 12, we are told of "principalities, against authorities, against the universal lords of this darkness ... spiritual power of wickedness in the heavenlies." This is Satan, who, indeed, tempts all of us and leads us all to sin and come short of the glory of God, entrapping Peter, stirring up Judas and inciting Saul to persecution, before he became Paul.

I would not limit the activities of Satan to a select few of his 'servants', his scope ranges across the whole world, as we can see from Ephesians. He has caused all to sin. If this were not the case, the sacrifice of Christ would've been to no object.

We are most certainly engaged in a struggle, a daily battle with the great Adversary. In the words of the Lord: "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat" (Luke 22 v 31). Satan constantly attacks what is for God's pleasure, and the believer is for God's pleasure, so each and every one of us are targets.

While I most definitely agree that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, the distinction which I was trying to make was that Satan has free reign with the unbeliever (these 'sons of the devil'), whereas the believer has the work of God in them which operates to the overthrow of evil. A believer still sins, but they could not be used by Satan like an unconverted Paul, or the two men in Kings.

I am not trying to claim there is a sinless state for the believer. I merely pointed out that the unbeliever has no defence against Satan, they are in his captivity. The believer is freed from captivity and must fight against the attacks of the devil, to be overcomers in the strength of God.

 

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It's most definitely true that Satan is operative and tempting the flesh within us.

Uh, yeah, that is pretty much a solid fact. Why then would I look upon myself or any other 'so called' believer apart from that fact? Is it 'just' us then? No. That view is not scripturally accurate. To be 'in Truth' is to be 'in Truth' on exactly this matter.

We as Christians are open to the attacks of the devil, but, unlike the unbeliever, we have the panoply (Ephesian 6 v 11) to keep us from falling into the snares of the tempter, if we make use of it.

We have His Light and His Promise of DIVISION if He leads us to 'see it.'

We are not the tempter. But to say that operator doesn't exist or doesn't operate in our minds and hearts is a basic lie of the tempter himself in that carrier.

I would never deny that Satan tempts me, his operations are relentless with a view to spoiling what is of God and for God in me. My own sinful condition is absolutely undeniable, and I own it freely. I often make reference to Romans 3 v 23 when preaching, I find that short verse to be so incisive.

Paul came with the exact intent to open our eyes to this matter of the power of Satan and to turn us to God in Christ.

Paul himself admitted to having a 'devil' in his flesh and evil present with him. (2 Cor. 12:7 and Romans 7:21) There is 'no way' the balance of us are any better in this regard and fact.

The same WORD that lifts US as believers condemns the tempter in us. A believer therefore stands under 'every Word' of God and finds life for us and death to the other working that we carry. This is a hard place to go and a tough thing to swallow.

The distinction I was attempting to make (in agreeing with HisSheep) was that the individuals referred to as 'children of the devil' are not actual demons, but men who have utterly surrendered themselves to the authority of the wicked one.

And I would simply say you have very cloudy vision in thinking men are devils. The devil is the anti-Christ 'spirit.' The 'spirit' of disobedience as are all of his own demons, devils and Jezebels. They are not viewable by flesh eyes but are 'revealed' by The Light of His Words.

I would never deny that a sinful thought is a sin. By nature, we are all sinful, and I know that I frequently sin in thought when my mind is not occupied by the things of God.

I know the source of tempting thoughts of sin. They are in fact 'demonic' in source and origination. Satan assuredly has access to our minds and hearts to make such thought insertions. You are welcome to 'blame only yourself.' I won't be seeing it that way.

You say that mankind is clearly 'not alone'. I would entirely agree with you. In Ephesians 6 v 12, we are told of "principalities, against authorities, against the universal lords of this darkness ... spiritual power of wickedness in the heavenlies." This is Satan, who, indeed, tempts all of us and leads us all to sin and come short of the glory of God, entrapping Peter, stirring up Judas and inciting Saul to persecution, before he became Paul.

I hope you see your clear vacillation on this matter. One minute seeing temptation as the 'natural man' and in almost the next breath admitting it of the tempter.

Pin it down!

There is us as believers and there is the other working that is not and can not be 'us' as believers. Both of these matters transpire 'in us.'

Christ is 'in our midst' to DIVIDE us from the other working.

enjoy!

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[Denique Coelum]

Uh, yeah, that is pretty much a solid fact. Why then would I look upon myself or any other 'so called' believer apart from that fact? Is it 'just' us then? No. That view is not scripturally accurate. To be 'in Truth' is to be 'in Truth' on exactly this

Quite so, but there is a distinction between the believer and the unbeliever in the way in which Satan operates. The unbeliever is deceived by Satan and thus remains in captivity. I do not believe that Satan 'attacks' the unbeliever, as there's nothing in them to attack. He is content with keeping them in darkness. In the believer, there is a work of God, and Satan seeks attack the believer on those grounds. Thankfully, it's normal for a believer to have the Holy Spirit, who provides us with the means with which to resist the attacks of the devil.

We are not the tempter. But to say that operator doesn't exist or doesn't operate in our minds and hearts is a basic lie of the tempter himself in that carrier.
Paul came with the exact intent to open our eyes to this matter of the power of Satan and to turn us to God in Christ.

Indeed so. Satan finds a willing response in the flesh which is in all of us, he finds it easy to gain access and tempt.

Paul himself admitted to having a 'devil' in his flesh and evil present with him. (2 Cor. 12:7 and Romans 7:21) There is 'no way' the balance of us are any better in this regard and fact.

That's a good Scripture to bring in. It really highlights the weakness of the flesh. Paul tells us there was a thorn in his flesh, that a messenger of Satan was sent to buffet him, in order to prevent him from becoming proud. I suppose this would remind us of the importance of self-judgement, of acknowledging our vulnerability of the attacks of the Enemy (being flesh as we are) and relying on God for strength.

And I would simply say you have very cloudy vision in thinking men are devils. The devil is the anti-Christ 'spirit.' The 'spirit' of disobedience as are all of his own demons, devils and Jezebels. They are not viewable by flesh eyes but are 'revealed' by The Light of His Words.
I know the source of tempting thoughts of sin. They are in fact 'demonic' in source and origination. Satan assuredly has access to our minds and hearts to make such thought insertions. You are welcome to 'blame only yourself.' I won't be seeing it that way.
I hope you see your clear vacillation on this matter. One minute seeing temptation as the 'natural man' and in almost the next breath admitting it of the tempter.

I can assure you, I don't think men are devils. That was the point I was trying to make clear. I refer to Ephesians 6 v 12: "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." This would clearly show us that these powers are not fleshly, but "spiritual forces".

I don't just blame myself, I recognise my sinful condition and the flesh by which the tempter gains access. When I refer to the 'natural man' in my earlier posts, I was talking about man after the flesh, the nature which is in us (and restrained by the Holy Spirit) and which is in the unbeliever (unrestrained).

 

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Quite so, but there is a distinction between the believer and the unbeliever in the way in which Satan operates. The unbeliever is deceived by Satan and thus remains in captivity. I do not believe that Satan 'attacks' the unbeliever, as there's nothing in them to attack.

We are all born under that ownership, blinded by the 'god of this world' in our minds.

When God makes the 'call' we WAKE UP from the slumber the spirit of disobedience places in our minds and hearts.

He is content with keeping them in darkness. In the believer, there is a work of God, and Satan seeks attack the believer on those grounds. Thankfully, it's normal for a believer to have the Holy Spirit, who provides us with the means with which to resist the attacks of the devil.

You understand then that the battle is 'internal' and also places our 'mutual adversary' therein? In this light God is IMPARTIAL. It is He who chooses which to raise 'in the lump' so to speak. Fact is, both vessels are raised in believers. The same LIGHT that is shed upon us within to our awakening to our Savior Jesus Christ is the same LIGHT that provokes the tempter, the spirit of slumber to react adversely within us, to tempt us, to cause us to again fall under him where 'he thinks' we belong.

Indeed so. Satan finds a willing response in the flesh which is in all of us, he finds it easy to gain access and tempt.

That access was granted and allowed by God in our 'construction.' Words of blessing were sown upon Adam, the tempter then entered the heart and mind of Adam and all of us in the process, being in the natural loins of Adam, so to speak.

That's a good Scripture to bring in. It really highlights the weakness of the flesh. Paul tells us there was a thorn in his flesh, that a messenger of Satan was sent to buffet him, in order to prevent him from becoming proud.

Indeed. Paul said that 'temptation' was 'in his flesh' and it was so of the tempter, even a special messenger of Satan just for him, to remind him of the fact of 'his weakness.'

We all eat our humble slice of this pie if we are led to see the facts of it in His Light.

So, no offense to you as Gods child EVER intended in these observations. It's a fact I've learned to live with and to find LIFE regardless. I do not however spread 'Grace Excuses and Cover Ups' for the tempter or upon that working. There is AN INTERNAL LINE firmly fixed and drawn. A SEVER by The Sword of His Word.

I suppose this would remind us of the importance of self-judgement, of acknowledging our vulnerability of the attacks of the Enemy (being flesh as we are) and relying on God for strength.

See how peaceable it can be to be IN TRUTH. I bring my 'whole' heart before God in Christ knowing that there is an evil conscience to be sprinkled. I am blessed. The other working....NOPE! Not one bit of mercy or forgiveness whatsoever.

In this way we all individually stand in Truth under the WHOLE COUNSEL of Gods Words, even the bad ones, knowing 'whom' they are also for. A tough place to go for many blinded ones. It's not their fault. God can shine His Brightness anywhere and upon anyone at anytime.

I can assure you, I don't think men are devils.

That is why I highlighted your statement. We should understand that The Word was sown FIRST in the men of the temple and they were the first to have SATAN enter their hearts and take A FAST AND HARD hold. As believers this is a Word of Warning to us as well, lest we fall into their HYPOCRISY and be deceived and pawned by the LIAR, the CHIEF THIEF in the heart.

Just a little light keeps the darkness in check, internally, where it is meant to be 'contained' in FRUIT.

That was the point I was trying to make clear. I refer to Ephesians 6 v 12: "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." This would clearly show us that these powers are not fleshly, but "spiritual forces".

See how easy it is to 'get along?' :yes

By admitting our weakness we are both enabled to 'turn' against and face our 'real' enemies in Truth.

I don't just blame myself, I recognise my sinful condition and the flesh by which the tempter gains access. When I refer to the 'natural man' in my earlier posts, I was talking about man after the flesh, the nature which is in us (and restrained by the Holy Spirit) and which is in the unbeliever (unrestrained).

The 'natural' or 'old' man has none of the facts you have shown in your truthful post.

I very much appreciate a 'good internal seer.' Light to Light and Sword to Sword.

no 'halp' required...Your God is my God.

enjoy!

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