The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Stormcrow]

We as Christians are open to the attacks of the devil...

Jesus vanquished Him.

I would never deny that Satan tempts me, his operations are relentless with a view to spoiling what is of God and for God in me.

{14} But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. {15} Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. James 1:14-15 (NASB)

Don't blame a defeated foe for that which you alone are responsible.

My own sinful condition is absolutely undeniable, and I own it freely.

{6} No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 1 John 3:6 (NASB)

We have victory over sin and death through the cross and shed blood of Christ. The church needs to start acting like His death really meant something. By all means, repent and ask for forgiveness. But then, instead of focusing on our sin, let's focus on our saviour.

If focusing on Christ was good enough to keep Peter from sinking, it should be good enough for us.

 

[WIP]

Okay guys. I started out thinking I'd just do a little cleaning up of your posts but changed my mind and deleted them instead. This is the only warning that will come.

Next time

 

[Denique Coelum]

Blimey! I'm not going to post back on this thread. I'm sorry guys, but I'm afraid you've completely misconstrued me, and I can't seem to straighten this out, I'm afraid! If you really want to sound this out with me, please send me a PM, let's not keep cluttering up the forums.

 

[savedbygrace57]

2 Cor 5:21 Who are the Us ?

2 Cor 5:21


21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This scripture here when properly understood, teaches that Christ did not die for everyone in the world without exception. The being made sin here speaks to Him being made a sin offering, as Isa 53 stated it here Isa 53:10

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

And so, Paul says to the Corinthian Church this 1 Cor 15:3

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

And so, who are the Our Sins Christ died for ? Why its the same ones Paul says later on in the second letter to the same, those who Christ was made sin in behalf of, and those are made the Righteousness of God in Him. So there you have it, we see who it is Christ died for, them only who are made Righteous See Rom 5:19b. Now are all men without exception made Righteous ? Then the Extent of Christ's Death could not have been for all men without exception ! It was for His Church which He Loved and gave Himself for Eph 5:25-27

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

So He was made sin for the Church, His Body !

 

[savedbygrace57]

Sanctified by His Death Permanently !

We know that Jesus Christ did not die for everyone without exception because by His Death or Offering, He has sanctified all for whom He was offered in behalf of permanently, once and for all ! Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Now can this be said of all without exception ? Is it true of the workers of Iniquity that Jesus will say this to Matt 7:23

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Do you really believe that these were sanctified once and for all by His Offering, or His Death , for His Offering and Death are the same thing you know ! His Death is a expiational Offering !

Now if Christ died for them He is speaking to in Matt 7:23, then they can say while in everlasting Fire, that I too have been sanctified once and for all by Christ's Death ! You see how inconsistent that is with the Lie that Christ died for all without exception ?

 

[Cassian]

2 Cor 5:21 Who are the Us ?

2 Cor 5:21


21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This scripture here when properly understood, teaches that Christ did not die for everyone in the world without exception. The being made sin here speaks to Him being made a sin offering, as Isa 53 stated it here Isa 53:10

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

And so, Paul says to the Corinthian Church this 1 Cor 15:3

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

And so, who are the Our Sins Christ died for ? Why its the same ones Paul says later on in the second letter to the same, those who Christ was made sin in behalf of, and those are made the Righteousness of God in Him. So there you have it, we see who it is Christ died for, them only who are made Righteous See Rom 5:19b. Now are all men without exception made Righteous ? Then the Extent of Christ's Death could not have been for all men without exception ! It was for His Church which He Loved and gave Himself for Eph 5:25-27

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

So He was made sin for the Church, His Body !

another preposterous statment and misapplication of the text.

2 Cor 5:21


21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

the us is mankind, every single human being that ever will live and sin, all sin. II Cor 5:18-19 clearly states that God reconciled the world to God. So does Col 1:20.

Unless you can show from scripture that there are actually two kinds or orders of sin. Sin of believers and sin of all others. Then you would need to show that when an unbeliever believes his type of sin changes with him.

See Rom 5:19b. Now are all men without exception made Righteous ? Then the Extent of Christ's Death could not have been for all men without exception ! It was for His Church which He Loved and gave Himself for Eph 5:25-27

absolutely, Scripture clearly states that Christ redeemed the world. He is the Savior of the world, John 4:42, I John 4:14.
If He did not reconcile the world, redeem the world, and give it life as Rom 5:18 states, then there is no possibility of having a Church anyway.

Your whole theology respective of scripture leaves every human being still condemned to death through Adam. When we die we simply cease to exist. Either Christ raised us (mankind) to life as Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:22, John 6:39, and a number of other texts or He did not raise anyone. It is actually stated that way in I Cor 15:13-19. Unless the dead are raised, this is all the dead, then Christ in not raised. If Christ missed one, then none would be saved.

 

[Eventide]

justification of LIFE...

This is one of many verses which helps me to see that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Saviour of all men, specially those who believe.

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life..

Whose life is justified in us.. ?

Is it our old man ? Our corrupt nature according to the FLESH..?

imo absolutely NOT.

It is once again the life of CHRIST in us.. for He IS the way, the truth, and the LIFE..

Once we begin to see that our Lord Jesus Christ is the elect of God, the Chosen in Whom the Father delights.. we'll lose sight of thinking that His atonement was limited or particular to the elect.. that makes no sense.. because He is the elect.

OUR life is NOT justified.. it remains condemned and that's why each and every one of us is going to die.. for death has passed upon all in that first Adam... and that includes you and me.. and every other person in Adam.

We have justification of LIFE in Christ.. period.

 

[Eventide]

Every knee shall bow...

Another simple reason why I can see that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Saviour of all men is because of the resurrection of the dead..

It's not for the justified only.. nope..

For the damned will also be resurrected from the dead..

So do the math..

IF the wages of sin is DEATH, and every last one of us is going to be raised from the dead.. THEN He must have died not for our sins only, but for the sin of the world... and we know that EVERY knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess that HE IS LORD, to the eternal glory of God.

 

[Eventide]

unto all and upon all that believe...

We may not hear many say Amen to this speaking though..

 

[BornAgain]

Re: unto all and upon all that believe...

We may not hear many say Amen to this speaking though..

 

[Jozinky]

Greetings lost ones;

To say that the Lord Jesus Christ died for every last person in the human race which includes all those who were already in Hell before the cross, all antichrists, the man of sin / son of perdition in 2Thes as well as the sins of people who commit the unforgivable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit... thereby paying the full price for all their sins and fully satisfying the wrath of God for all their sins and took all their sins away...... is darkness from the pit of Hell!

That's another false Jesus who cannot save anyone because most for whom he died will perish, therefore his death was a miserable failure.

James

 

[Cassian]

Greetings lost ones;

To say that the Lord Jesus Christ died for every last person in the human race which includes all those who were already in Hell before the cross, all antichrists, the man of sin / son of perdition in 2Thes as well as the sins of people who commit the unforgivable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit... thereby paying the full price for all their sins and fully satisfying the wrath of God for all their sins and took all their sins away...... is darkness from the pit of Hell!

That's another false Jesus who cannot save anyone because most for whom he died will perish, therefore his death was a miserable failure.

James

What is so ironic is that if what you say was actually correct, then there would be no hell for people to even occupy, no heaven either. Both depend on the reconcilation of the world by Christ through His Incarnation. Christ gave life to the world, thus He is the Savior of the world, John 4:42.

 

[Jozinky]

What is so ironic is that if what you say was actually correct, then there would be no hell for people to even occupy, no heaven either. Both depend on the reconcilation of the world by Christ through His Incarnation. Christ gave life to the world, thus He is the Savior of the world, John 4:42.

Hello lost one;
Your trouble is.... most of the world your false Jesus "saved" will end up in Hell. You would be hard pressed to find any place in the entire Bible where "world" means every last person in the entire human race.

Jozinky

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Hello lost one;
Your trouble is.... most of the world your false Jesus "saved" will end up in Hell. You would be hard pressed to find any place in the entire Bible where "world" means every last person in the entire human race.

Simple rule of thumb: When God says "world" He means world. When man says it, it is hyperbole. Therefore, the examples used to prove kosmos is actually a limiting word are incorrectly cited, since those usages are all spoken by man, usually in consternation and exaggeration. When God uses the word, it does indeed mean the whole creation.

 

[Jozinky]

Simple rule of thumb: When God says "world" He means world. When man says it, it is hyperbole. Therefore, the examples used to prove kosmos is actually a limiting word are incorrectly cited, since those usages are all spoken by man, usually in consternation and exaggeration. When God uses the word, it does indeed mean the whole creation.

Well now since the whole creation includes Satan you now have "jesus" who atoned for the sins of Satan.

That's Satanic blasphemy.

Jozinky

 

[Cassian]

Hello lost one;
Your trouble is.... most of the world your false Jesus "saved" will end up in Hell. You would be hard pressed to find any place in the entire Bible where "world" means every last person in the entire human race.

Jozinky

Rom 5:12, Rom 5:18, Rom 11:23, I Cor 15:22, John 6:39, these speak to all men, or mankind.

Obviously, mankind is part of the world, II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20, John 3:16, John 4:42, I John 4:14.

Because of His Incarnation and resurrection, all men will be given life which is stated in the texts above, but also that the same will all be raised which testifies that all men, without exception were saved by Christ from death. Acts 24:15,
Rev 20: 12-13, I Cor 15:13-19, I Cor 15:53.

As I stated before, if Christ did not reconcile the world, give life to the world, there is no such place as hell or heaven. You must have forgotten that the fall of man was death, dust to dust. We are all condemned to death and if we are not saved from death, we all simply are dissolved into dust. This is the meaning of your orginial statement. Your statement lacks good scriptural and theological understanding.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Jozinky Rom 5:12, Rom 5:18, Rom 11:23, I Cor 15:22, John 6:39, these speak to all men, or
mankind.

Then why doesnt it say all mankind ?

Jesus said there was a World He did not pray for Jn 17:9

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Particular Redemption !



Even though I know many cannot and will not receive this Truth, because they believe the lie that Christ died for all men, making all men without exception redeemable, nevertheless Redemption in Christ is limited to a Chosen People Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Now who are the we Paul is Identifying Himself with ? Its the Chosen of God Eph 1:3-4

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

That this Redemption God provides is for only for a Elect People is seen in the OT Scriptures, which gives a Divine Command Ps 130:7-8

7 Let Israel hope in the Lord: for with the Lord there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.

8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

This is the Redemption the old Saint referred to here Lk 1:68

Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

This speaking of Jesus Christ, the Head of His Body the Church Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Compare this scripture with Ps 130:8

And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

I know many will reject this clear Truth ! And Yes,m this means Israel of Ps 130:7-8 is the Church of Titus 2:14 !

 

[Cassian]

Then why doesnt it say all mankind ?

Jesus said there was a World He did not pray for Jn 17:9

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

You are great at lifting texts our of context to support errent notions. John 17:9 is Christ specifically praying for the disciples as a contrast that He is not praying for the world. The next group He prays for is the Church. The last is all others, which are in the world and who will all be drawn by the Holy Spirit to come.

If a verse like Col 1:20 states very specifically that Christ's reconciling death covered everything in heaven and on earth, would that exclude man?

If it says in I Cor 15:22 that the equation of all men died through Adam, then all men will be given life by Christ. There are no exceptions on either side of that equation. When scripture says that God reconciled the world, II Cor 5:18-19 it means the Cosmos, the universe, which includes man.

There is never a limitation upon those that will be raised from the dead. John 6:39 aligns with Col 1:20, Everything that was given to Christ will be raised in the last day, none will be lost. It is impossible to find any kind of limitation upon what Christ did through His Incarnation and resurrection. I Cor 15:13-19 is the clear preface to the summation of vs 22.

 

[Cassian]

savedbygrace57,

Even though I know many cannot and will not receive this Truth, because they believe the lie that Christ died for all men, making all men without exception redeemable, nevertheless Redemption in Christ is limited to a Chosen People Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

where is the limitation here. All men have been redeemed by His Blood, Col 1:20, so that all men might be able to repent, confess their sins, and those sins remitted. All men are eligible. Christ did not lose any to whom He gave life so that all men will have an eternal existance. The only question that remains is where they will spend that enternity. That choice is all man's and he will be held accountable for that free choice.

Now who are the we Paul is Identifying Himself with ? Its the Chosen of God Eph 1:3-4

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This verse straight forward rejects you notion that Christ choses indiviuals to be In Christ. It clearly says He chose those IN Christ. Man must first believe, must first be baptised and enter into the Body of Christ. His election is the Church, the elect. Those that believe will be made holy and blameless.
What it does not say is that God chose you to be in Christ. the whole purpose of God creating man with a ratioal soul and an independent will was for man to freely make the choice.

That this Redemption God provides is for only for a Elect People is seen in the OT Scriptures, which gives a Divine Command Ps 130:7-8
7 Let Israel hope in the Lord: for with the Lord there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.
8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.
This is the Redemption the old Saint referred to here Lk 1:68
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
This speaking of Jesus Christ, the Head of His Body the Church Titus 2:14
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Compare this scripture with Ps 130:8
And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.
I know many will reject this clear Truth ! And Yes,m this means Israel of Ps 130:7-8 is the Church of Titus 2:14 !

this is why your theological interpretation is a failure. In order for Christ to even have one believer, Christ needed to give life to the world. What you seem to forget is that man was already condemned to death. Man was going to be dissolved into dust, cease to exist as a human being. God's whole purpose of creating both the world and man would be dissolved. Both man and the world needed life, an eternal existance again. Christ overcame death, redeemed the world for what purpose. To have believers. to have a called out group, He desires that all men actually heed His call, but man is free to choose, and most do not heed His call.

In the context of Titus 2:14 Paul is speaking to believers, but that He gave Himself so that He could have a Body. Clearly, the following verse support that Christ is calling all men, vs 3 makes a contrast, Us, the beleilvers are being contrasted with all men. Vs 7 again is a contrast of all men who are saved by His grace and that we (believers) can become heirs of that grace by belief, by faith. Never does it ever say that individual man was saved by Christ from the Cross. The ONLY way individuals are saved is by and through faith. This was made possible because Christ gave life to the world. He recreated the world and man, restored the Image of God in man again, all men, there is no distinction, nor exception.