The Nature of God

[WIP]

I'm asking questions because I want to learn.

The following quote from Matthew seems to suggest to me that Jesus was wrestling with the desire to not go through with his destiny. Yes, he did finally accept the will of the Father but it would appear not without praying for release from it.

39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Here in Mark it is recorded that he not only asked for deliverance once but twice. In other words he was begging. This seems to suggest that even though he knew his purpose he was struggling with the temptation of not following through. Otherwise, would he not just do what he was destined to do without a thought?

34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
37 And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?
38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
39 And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.

 

[Free]

On this topic a prof once said something to the effect that when one tries to split the mystery, heresy is just around the corner. He also said that the wrong question is "Could Jesus have sinned?" That is an attempt to split the mystery of the Incarnation. The right question is "Did he feel the full force of evil?"

 

[Deborah13]

On this topic a prof once said something to the effect that when one tries to split the mystery, heresy is just around the corner. He also said that the wrong question is "Could Jesus have sinned?" That is an attempt to split the mystery of the Incarnation. The right question is "Did he feel the full force of evil?"

You just answered the question for me, made it clear to me.

Did He feel the full force of evil? I believe He did and in that, He would understand the temptation that man faces, even though He did not have to wrestle with the temptation.

 

[Elijah674]

I'm asking questions because I want to learn.

The following quote from Matthew seems to suggest to me that Jesus was wrestling with the desire to not go through with his destiny. Yes, he did finally accept the will of the Father but it would appear not without praying for release from it.

39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Here in Mark it is recorded that he not only asked for deliverance once but twice. In other words he was begging. This seems to suggest that even though he knew his purpose he was struggling with the temptation of not following through. Otherwise, would he not just do what he was destined to do without a thought?

34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
37 And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?
38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
39 And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.

This was [the man] the second Adam talking!

(if not why did Christ's death save all the faithful & see John 20:17 for why He needed Jehovah God approval that He had been Faithfull)

--Elijah

 

[reba]

I'm asking questions because I want to learn.

The following quote from Matthew seems to suggest to me that Jesus was wrestling with the desire to not go through with his destiny. Yes, he did finally accept the will of the Father but it would appear not without praying for release from it.

39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Here in Mark it is recorded that he not only asked for deliverance once but twice. In other words he was begging. This seems to suggest that even though he knew his purpose he was struggling with the temptation of not following through. Otherwise, would he not just do what he was destined to do without a thought?

34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
37 And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?
38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
39 And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.

WIP. Seems like for ever I have believed that it was not 'human death' Jesus was fighting ... it was being innocent and taking on the sins of the whole world. The disgust of the sin of mankind from Adam to me... just my thoughts

 

[WIP]

Thanks. That's a perspective I didn't consider.

 

[Sinthesis]

I'm asking questions because I want to learn.

The following quote from Matthew seems to suggest to me that Jesus was wrestling with the desire to not go through with his destiny. Yes, he did finally accept the will of the Father but it would appear not without praying for release from it.

39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Here in Mark it is recorded that he not only asked for deliverance once but twice. In other words he was begging. This seems to suggest that even though he knew his purpose he was struggling with the temptation of not following through. Otherwise, would he not just do what he was destined to do without a thought?

34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
37 And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?
38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
39 And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.

It seems to me that as Jesus prays in Gethsemane He is wrestling with the necessity of the grusome particulars of what He was to undertake. There doesn't appear to be anybody else tempting Him.

"Pray, lest ye enter into temptation" suggests that by following the same advice He then gives Peter, Jesus has avoided temptation by turning His struggle over to the Father in prayer.

 

[Guest]

Where in scripture did Jesus pray to the Father for strength over temptation?

What about when the devil tempted him in Matt 4, always replying with "It is written". John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word is Jesus' strength over temptation, and the Word was with God and was God. God the Father.

 

[Sinthesis]

Where in scripture did Jesus pray to the Father for strength over temptation?

What about when the devil tempted him in Matt 4, always replying with "It is written". John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word is Jesus' strength over temptation, and the Word was with God and was God. God the Father.

The "Word" in John 1:1 refers to Jesus Himself.

 

[Guest]

Where in scripture did Jesus pray to the Father for strength over temptation?

What about when the devil tempted him in Matt 4, always replying with "It is written". John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word is Jesus' strength over temptation, and the Word was with God and was God. God the Father.

The "Word" in John 1:1 refers to Jesus Himself.

That doesn't change the fact that Jesus lowered himself to a servant when the Word became flesh, praying to the Father. The Word was with God, so what kind of power did God have over Jesus while being with Jesus. For example, if I was with my wife, what kind of impact would my wife have on me. But in this case, we're talking about the word "God."

 

[Sinthesis]

Where in scripture did Jesus pray to the Father for strength over temptation?

What about when the devil tempted him in Matt 4, always replying with "It is written". John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word is Jesus' strength over temptation, and the Word was with God and was God. God the Father.

The "Word" in John 1:1 refers to Jesus Himself.

That doesn't change the fact that Jesus lowered himself to a servant when the Word became flesh, praying to the Father. The Word was with God, so what kind of power did God have over Jesus while being with Jesus. For example, if I was with my wife, what kind of impact would my wife have on me. But in this case, we're talking about the word "God."

I don't really understand your analogy.

However, when the Word lowered Himself to a form which men could understand (100% human) He naturally set aside some of His Divine Glory, which left Him(Jesus) less than the Father in that respect. The full Divine Glory of God is so far beyond us that the only way for us to know the Father is to know the Son.

 

[WIP]

I'm asking questions because I want to learn.

The following quote from Matthew seems to suggest to me that Jesus was wrestling with the desire to not go through with his destiny. Yes, he did finally accept the will of the Father but it would appear not without praying for release from it.

39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Here in Mark it is recorded that he not only asked for deliverance once but twice. In other words he was begging. This seems to suggest that even though he knew his purpose he was struggling with the temptation of not following through. Otherwise, would he not just do what he was destined to do without a thought?

34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
37 And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?
38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
39 And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.

It seems to me that as Jesus prays in Gethsemane He is wrestling with the necessity of the grusome particulars of what He was to undertake. There doesn't appear to be anybody else tempting Him.

"Pray, lest ye enter into temptation" suggests that by following the same advice He then gives Peter, Jesus has avoided temptation by turning His struggle over to the Father in prayer.

Does one need a "tempter" to be tempted? I see a beautiful woman and I am very likely tempted but does that mean she was tempting me just because she was there? I can't agree with that. Her presence may be a temptation for me but it very well likely has nothing to do with anything she is doing aimed at me or anyone else.

Too often we forget or we don't want to admit that we have a sinful nature. Since Jesus did not have a sinful nature it would suggest that it was not possible for him to be tempted. But, if he truly humbled himself to become a "man" then it would also seem appropriate that he would have gone all the way and humbled himself to be like "man" in that he could or would be tempted. This seems to be the point of this thread and what we are trying to come to grips with. At least that's how I have been seeing the discussion.

 

[Guest]

The "Word" in John 1:1 refers to Jesus Himself.

That doesn't change the fact that Jesus lowered himself to a servant when the Word became flesh, praying to the Father. The Word was with God, so what kind of power did God have over Jesus while being with Jesus. For example, if I was with my wife, what kind of impact would my wife have on me. But in this case, we're talking about the word "God."

However, when the Word lowered Himself to a form which men could understand (100% human) He naturally set aside some of His Divine Glory, which left Him(Jesus) less than the Father in that respect. The full Divine Glory of God is so far beyond us that the only way for us to know the Father is to know the Son.

That's precisely what I'm saying. Very good but..

People tempting God and God being tempted are not the same.

Excellent point.

Just as this applies to the Father, it would also apply to Jesus, and in this way They share the same incorruptible Divine nature.

But (not being tempted) doesn't apply to Jesus because he lowered himself. Only God the Father cannot be tempted by evil, but Jesus was tempted by evil. Simply.

 

[Sinthesis]

I'm asking questions because I want to learn.

The following quote from Matthew seems to suggest to me that Jesus was wrestling with the desire to not go through with his destiny. Yes, he did finally accept the will of the Father but it would appear not without praying for release from it.


Here in Mark it is recorded that he not only asked for deliverance once but twice. In other words he was begging. This seems to suggest that even though he knew his purpose he was struggling with the temptation of not following through. Otherwise, would he not just do what he was destined to do without a thought?

It seems to me that as Jesus prays in Gethsemane He is wrestling with the necessity of the grusome particulars of what He was to undertake. There doesn't appear to be anybody else tempting Him.

"Pray, lest ye enter into temptation" suggests that by following the same advice He then gives Peter, Jesus has avoided temptation by turning His struggle over to the Father in prayer.

Does one need a "tempter" to be tempted? I see a beautiful woman and I am very likely tempted but does that mean she was tempting me just because she was there? I can't agree with that. Her presence may be a temptation for me but it very well likely has nothing to do with anything she is doing aimed at me or anyone else.

Too often we forget or we don't want to admit that we have a sinful nature. Since Jesus did not have a sinful nature it would suggest that it was not possible for him to be tempted. But, if he truly humbled himself to become a "man" then it would also seem appropriate that he would have gone all the way and humbled himself to be like "man" in that he could or would be tempted. This seems to be the point of this thread and what we are trying to come to grips with. At least that's how I have been seeing the discussion.

That's precisely what I'm saying. Very good but..

People tempting God and God being tempted are not the same.

Excellent point.

Just as this applies to the Father, it would also apply to Jesus, and in this way They share the same incorruptible Divine nature.

But (not being tempted) doesn't apply to Jesus because he lowered himself. Only God the Father cannot be tempted by evil, but Jesus was tempted by evil. Simply.

I think perhaps we are now in the area where 100% God and 100% man seem to contradict. Meaning the full answer to how Jesus could be tempted (as every man is) without being susceptible to temptation (as only God is) is found in the Trinity, which we can't fully understand but just accept.

 

[WIP]

I think perhaps we are now in the area where 100% God and 100% man seem to contradict.

Perhaps if one believes God can't be both.

 

[Sinthesis]

I think perhaps we are now in the area where 100% God and 100% man seem to contradict.

Perhaps if one believes God can't be both.

Because Jesus is God, He is both. Yet God the Father isn't both. The Holy Spirit?

 

[Randy]

On this topic a prof once said something to the effect that when one tries to split the mystery, heresy is just around the corner. He also said that the wrong question is "Could Jesus have sinned?" That is an attempt to split the mystery of the Incarnation. The right question is "Did he feel the full force of evil?"

Jesus didn't sin and that shows that He was not a slave to sin. I think mankind is a slave to sin unless the Son sets them free.

I think its clear that the One in Jesus was greater than the one in this world. The Father is in the Son.

Jesus spoke of that other witness:"Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

John 14:10

Randy