The Nature of the Soul and Hell

[Tenchi]

You said that Paul expected to be immediately with Christ when he died. That means that you're contradicting Paul. Paul said that the resurrection of the dead wouldn't begin until Jesus second presence.

I didn't say Paul had an expectation of being bodily resurrected, but that his soul/spirit would go to be with Christ, which is to say that Paul would do so. As well, this is what Paul wrote, it is not merely what I'm saying.

So Paul knew when he died he would sleep in death until the second presence of Jesus Christ.

You're assuming here, I think, the very thing you've yet to prove, the thing that is at issue in our back-and-forth. Paul did not think he would "sleep in death," only his body. He, Paul, would be with Christ in the spiritual state in which Elijah, Moses and the saints beneath the altar were. Conscious, individuated, recognizable, clothed, etc.

All of this that you have texted here Tenchi you have texted because Matthew 10:28 shows that humans don't have immortal souls. Yet here you are texting all this that you have texted denying what Matthew 10:28 says, that God can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.

I'm not denying God's word, I'm denying your mistaken handling of it. Matthew 10:28 doesn't mean what you say it does for the many reasons I laid out. It is not at all an effective rebuttal of my view merely to assume you've interpreted the verse correctly. As I've shown, you haven't.

You don't want to believe that God can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna Tenchi.

Not at all. What I want is a truly biblical and careful understanding of God's word which your perspective on the soul doesn't provide.

As the true God has taught us, God has never promised eternal life to the unrighteous. That means the unrighteous won't live forever Tenchi.

Well, if you're careless with God's word and with the contextual meaning of terms, your assertion here is possible. But I'm not careless in these ways and so I don't agree with you.

So when God judges a person as unrighteous and not deserving eternal life he destroys that person body and soul. In others words Tenchi, he/she who has been judged by God unworthy of eternal life will never live again. They will never exist as living persons again. You can try all your might to teach the unrighteous will exist for eternity as living persons, they will not.

I don't have to try teach with all my might what is the plain and obvious truth of God's word. I'm not finding my view at all difficult to support from Scripture, as I've already demonstrated. It's clear as day for any whose mind is not clouded by false notions - like yours about the soul.

 

[BB1956]

I didn't say Paul had an expectation of being bodily resurrected, but that his soul/spirit would go to be with Christ, which is to say that Paul would do so. As well, this is what Paul wrote, it is not merely what I'm saying.




You're assuming here, I think, the very thing you've yet to prove, the thing that is at issue in our back-and-forth. Paul did not think he would "sleep in death," only his body. He, Paul, would be with Christ in the spiritual state in which Elijah, Moses and the saints beneath the altar were. Conscious, individuated, recognizable, clothed, etc.



I'm not denying God's word, I'm denying your mistaken handling of it. Matthew 10:28 doesn't mean what you say it does for the many reasons I laid out. It is not at all an effective rebuttal of my view merely to assume you've interpreted the verse correctly. As I've shown, you haven't.




Not at all. What I want is a truly biblical and careful understanding of God's word which your perspective on the soul doesn't provide.




Well, if you're careless with God's word and with the contextual meaning of terms, your assertion here is possible. But I'm not careless in these ways and so I don't agree with you.




I don't have to try teach with all my might what is the plain and obvious truth of God's word. I'm not finding my view at all difficult to support from Scripture, as I've already demonstrated. It's clear as day for any whose mind is not clouded by false notions - like yours about the soul.

No you're denying God's Word just as I said. Paul said the resurrection would begin during Jesus second presence. So he would sleep in death until the resurrection. Paul doesn't contradict that. So Paul wasn't saying he would immediately be with Jesus when he died. Also when I said Paul wouldn't be resurrected until the second presence of Jesus Christ I didn't say anything about a bodily resurrection either. Paul will get the same kind of resurrection Jesus Christ had, he just wouldn't be resurrected until sometime during the second presence of Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 4 13-17)

Well you're view isn't teaching me that God will not destroy body and soul those who he judges as unrighteous and not worthy of eternal life. The scripture at Matthew 10:28 shows God can destroy the soul and will destroy the body and soul of those he judges as not deserving of eternal life, because nowhere in scripture is those God judges as not worthy of eternal life will get eternal life.

 

[Tenchi]

No you're denying God's Word just as I said.

Well, just saying so doesn't make it so.

Paul said the resurrection would begin during Jesus second presence. So he would sleep in death until the resurrection. Paul doesn't contradict that.

As I already pointed out, "sleep" refers to the condition of a person's body, not their soul, which Scripture makes crystal clear goes on either to Paradise or flames of torment. A corpse takes on the character of one who is sleeping: still, unresponsive and unaware. But the soul definitely continues on, as Paul wrote, to be present with the Lord. Paul never indicated that he was looking forward to being "asleep" when he wrote of his death, but only of his expectation of being with Christ immediately, consciously and forever.

Philippians 1:21-23 (NASB)
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

How is sleeping "gain"? Paul said the death of his body would be "much better" than continuing on in the flesh. How would this be so if he thought he was just going to "sleep"? And what about "departing and being with Christ"? Paul didn't say his soul/spirit as a mere animating energy would be with Christ but that he, Paul, would depart and be with Christ. It was this fact, the fact of Paul's presence with Christ, that made dying "gain" and "very much better" to Paul, not just "sleeping" in death.

Also when I said Paul wouldn't be resurrected until the second presence of Jesus Christ I didn't say anything about a bodily resurrection either. Paul will get the same kind of resurrection Jesus Christ had, he just wouldn't be resurrected until sometime during the second presence of Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 4 13-17)

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (NASB)
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

God will bring with Him those who have "fallen asleep" in Jesus? If you're correct, BB1956, why is God bringing those who've fallen asleep in Jesus with Him to the Resurrection? A soul is mere divine energy, the animating "breath of God," that returns to Him, incorporating into Him who gave it, right? But Paul wrote that God would bring with Him, those who've fallen asleep. This language is very suggestive of the idea that those who've "fallen asleep" have remained distinct from God, and accompany Him at the Second Coming of Christ. I don't, for example, bring my eyes with me when I go somewhere, or my lungs, or my brain. As necessary constituent parts of myself, it is not necessary to say that, when I go somewhere, I bring these things with me. Would this not also be the case with those who've "fallen asleep" whom God brings with Himself? It seems so, to me. If all souls return to God, re-uniting with Him as undifferentiated divine energy, what does Paul mean when he says God will "bring with Him those who've fallen asleep in Jesus"? This is like saying, when I go to church on Sunday, I will bring with me my arms and legs, which would be a very strange, obvious and redundant way of talking. That Paul makes the distinction between God and those He brings with Him, then, is strongly suggestive of the fact that they are separate, individual entities that have been with God in heaven and now join Him in the Second Coming, re-uniting with their long-dead, but now glorified physical bodies. If this is so - which I believe it is - then your notion, BB1956, that Paul is "asleep" until the Resurrection is in serious error.

Well you're view isn't teaching me that God will not destroy body and soul those who he judges as unrighteous and not worthy of eternal life.

I never thought it would. I'm writing for others who read through this thread, wondering what the truth is concerning the immortal soul of every human being. I'm confident that, as they read, they will see the same errors in your view that I do.

The scripture at Matthew 10:28 shows God can destroy the soul and will destroy the body and soul of those he judges as not deserving of eternal life, because nowhere in scripture is those God judges as not worthy of eternal life will get eternal life.

I already explained from Scripture that "destroyed" does not necessarily mean "annihilate from existence." And the parable taught by Jesus of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) and his warning of "everlasting punishment" of the unrepentant wicked who die in their sins (Matthew 25:46), make it very clear that "destroyed" in Matthew 10:28 does not mean "annihilate."

What the unsaved get upon the death of their body is the "second death" which is not eradication from existence but eternal separation from God in hell. Death in Scripture is often indicative of this, as in the case of Romans 6:1-11, or the story of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32), or of the unsaved person in Ephesians 2:1.

 

[BB1956]

Tenchi said,
Well, just saying so doesn't make it so.[/QUOTE\]

Right Tenchi, you trying to reason on the scriptures which say God can destroy someone body and soul, by reasoning that although God can destroy someone body and soul he will not destroy someone body and soul. That means that you're reasoning on the scriptures in such a way that you're saying God gives eternal life to those he has judged unworthy of eternal life. So no Tenchi, it's not I who saying anything about whether you're remaining in God's word it's the true God himself in his word that says he will destroy those body and soul that he has judged unworthy of eternal life. You trying to reason on the scriptures that the True God will give eternal life to those he has judged unworthy of eternal life is just you talking, not the True God in his word. So it's God in his word that judges you to be contradicting his word.
So you go ahead and continue reasoning as you do on the scriptures teaching that God gives eternal life to those that he has judged unworthy of eternal life, you're just calling the True God a liar, because the True God nowhere in his word has ever promised eternal life to those he judges unworthy of eternal life.

 

[BB1956]

Tenchi said,
As I already pointed out, "sleep" refers to the condition of a person's body, not their soul.[/QUOTE\]

And as I've told you the scripture at Genesis 2:7 doesn't say God GAVE the flesh and blood human body that he blew the breath (spirit) of life into, a living soul. Genesis 2:7 teaches us that when God blew the breath (spirit) of life into that flesh and blood human body it was the flesh and blood human body that BECAME a living soul or living person.
You're teaching that when God formed a flesh and blood human body from the dust of the ground and then blew the breath(spirit) of life into that flesh and blood human body that God GAVE the flesh and blood human body a living soul or living person. You're saying the word BECAME that's in Genesis 2:7 shouldn't be there. Yet every Bible I've read concerning Genesis 2:7 uses the word BECAME in Genesis 2: 7 not the word GAVE. So Genesis 2:7 doesn't teach that God GAVE the flesh and blood human body a living soul but that the flesh and blood human body BECAME a living soul. In other words Genesis 2:7 teaches that it was the physical flesh and blood human body that BECAME a living soul or living person when God blew the breath (spirit) of life into the physical flesh and blood human body. You don't want to believe that, and teach something else, you certainly have the right to do so, but I'm not going to agree with what you're saying is the scriptures. So I'm going to recognize that you're teaching something the scriptures don't teach.

 

[Tenchi]

That means that you're reasoning on the scriptures in such a way that you're saying God gives eternal life to those he has judged unworthy of eternal life.

Well, as I already pointed out, in Scripture, the unrepentant wicked go on, not to eternal life but to eternal death, though not death in the sense of the total end of all existence but of permanent separation from God (which separation is often what "death" in the Bible refers to). The wicked remain conscious beyond the decease of their body, experiencing divine punishment in soul/spirit form, not escaping it, as annihilation would enable them to do.

So no Tenchi, it's not I who saying anything about whether you're remaining in God's word it's the true God himself in his word that says he will destroy those body and soul that he has judged unworthy of eternal life.

This dog ain't gonna hunt. You're not really arguing for your view here but just assuming its correct and then denying my view as one that is opposed to God Himself. In reality, I'm not opposed to God or His word but only to your mistaken notions about both.

So you go ahead and continue reasoning as you do on the scriptures teaching that God gives eternal life to those that he has judged unworthy of eternal life, you're just calling the True God a liar, because the True God nowhere in his word has ever promised eternal life to those he judges unworthy of eternal life.

Do you know what a Strawman argument is? You just made one here. Compare what you've written above with what I wrote above and with what I explained in my last post. They don't match up.

And as I've told you the scripture at Genesis 2:7 doesn't say God GAVE the flesh and blood human body that he blew the breath (spirit) of life into, a living soul.

This response takes us back to the beginning of our exchange, leaving us where we started. You can't argue in a circle like this and sustain a convincing point of view. Concerning Genesis 2:7:

"It is true that in the Old Testament, the Hebrew word for soul (nephesh) can be used in reference to a living being. Genesis 2:7 is clearly an example of this. But because the word can be used in this sense does not mean that it is limited to this sense, or that man does not have an immaterial nature...Indeed, Genesis 2:7 is telling us what man is (a living being), not what he is not. In other words, while Genesis 2:7 affirms that man is a living being, it does not deny in any way that man has an immaterial nature." ("Reasoning from the Scriptures" by Ron Rhodes. pg. 308)

What does the Bible teach about the human soul?

1. It is distinct from the physical body, yet intimately connected to it and dwelling within the body. (Ps. 31:9; 131:2; Isa. 10:18; 26;9; Matt. 10:28)
2. It experiences and expresses sorrow, bitterness, joy, love, anguish, vexation, discouragement, etc. (Gen. 34:3; 42:21; Nu. 21:4; Deut. 6:4, 5; Ju. 16:16; Job 3:20; Ps. 35:9)
3. It is capable of choosing and remembering. (Job. 7:15; La. 3:20)
4. It may, as a unique, personal entity depart, and return to, the physical body that housed it. (Gen. 35:18; 1Ki. 17:21, 22)
5. As a term, used interchangeably in Scripture with the term "spirit." (Isa. 26:9)

Clearly, the Bible communicates more to us about the human soul than that it is "animating energy" given by God.

it was the flesh and blood human body that BECAME a living soul or living person.

Nope. See above. The body gained a soul, a conscious living being to reside within it, but the body has always been merely a "tent," a sort of fleshly housing for the soul/spirit that is the actual person.

Romans 8:22-23 (NASB)
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

It seems very clear to me here that Paul did not see himself as his body, but as quite distinct from his fleshly form which needed yet to be redeemed as Paul's inner being, his soul/spirit had already been through his faith in Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:49 (NASB)
49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

Speaking of his body, Paul indicated here that he had "borne the image of the earthy" by inhabiting a fleshly form. He did not see himself as identical to his body, but as one who had "borne" it, like he would have borne some object external to himself, like you might bear a backpack, or bag of groceries.

2 Corinthians 5:1-4 (NASB)
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

Paul's "earthly tent" was his body, which he wrote would be forsaken at some point for a "house made without hands, eternal in the heavens." How do we know Paul had his physical, fleshly body in view here? Because of what he had just been talking about at the end of the previous chapter:

2 Corinthians 4:16 (NASB)
16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.

What was the "outer man" Paul mentioned here? His fleshly form, obviously, which he distinguished from his "inner man" that, in Christ, was "renewed day by day." What was the "inner man" but the immaterial soul/spirit within Paul's body that was Paul. His "outer man" would be "torn down" (that is, it would die) and be replaced by an eternal, heavenly "building" in which Paul longed to be clothed (as opposed to sheltered, our housed, as one would normally say of an actual building in which one dwelled). What was this eternal, heavenly "building"? It was his eternal soul, fully-redeemed from the sin-corruption of this world, finally rid once-and-for-all of the "law of sin within his body" (Romans 7:23), that would go to heaven upon the decease of his "tent" (his physical body) and be clothed, not with "sleep," or absorption into God, but with the unadulterated life of Christ (Colossians 3:4).

So I'm going to recognize that you're teaching something the scriptures don't teach.

No, only something with which you don't agree. They aren't the same thing.

 

[BB1956]

Tenchi said,
I already explained from Scripture that "destroyed" does not necessarily mean "annihilate from existence." And the parable taught by Jesus of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) and his warning of "everlasting punishment" of the unrepentant wicked who die in their sins (Matthew 25:46), make it very clear that "destroyed" in Matthew 10:28 does not mean "annihilate."[/Quote\]

Which means you do teach that God rewards the unrighteous with eternal life because eternal life means a persons life doesn't end. You can teach that God doesn't judge the unrighteous unworthy of life, but the scriptures have always taught that the unrighteous would not get life without end, God never promised that they would live for eternity, so by you saying God doesn't annihilate the unrighteous from ever living again, but instead teaches that God gives them eternal life or everlasting life to the unrighteous, you and I will always disagree that what is the truth in the scriptures is actually the truth that the True God says is in his word.
Everlasting life or eternal life was a reward for the faithful. The unfaithful or unrighteous were never promised eternal life or life without end. So you can say you're going by the scriptures all you want, but because you are teaching that God is given eternal life to the unrighteous by teaching that God doesn't annihilate the life of the unrighteous out of existence forever you're teaching that God has given them life without end or everlasting life or eternal life.

 

[BB1956]

Free said,
Angels are immortal, yet God could destroy them if he so chose. God could destroy everything with just a word if he wanted. God alone has that ability. In no way whatsoever does it not mean the soul isn't immortal.[/QUOTE\]

So you're going completely against the definition of immortality. Because immortality means unending existence, deathlessness, endlessness, indestructibility, imperishabilty.

 

[BB1956]

Tenchi said,
Well, as I already pointed out, in Scripture, the unrepentant wicked go on, not to eternal life but to eternal death, though not death in the sense of the total end of all existence but of permanent separation from God (which separation is often what "death" in the Bible refers to). The wicked remain conscious beyond the decease of their body, experiencing divine punishment in soul/spirit form, not escaping it, as annihilation would enable them to do.[/QUOTE\]

I disagree, the scriptures don't define death as simply a separation from God. Death is the opposite of life. If you exist as a living person then you're not dead. People can believe being dead and being alive are the same, but they're not. When you say death is just a separation from God, I have found no scripture that says that. I believe you take scripture and interpret it to mean that death simply means a person is still alive but separated from God, but I've found no scripture that actually says that death means a person is still alive but separated from God. Death and life are not the same no matter how much you try to make the scriptures appear they're saying that death and life are the same. Someone who's alive means that person exists as a living person a person who's dead means that person is no longer a living person. You can deny that all you want but it's true. I don't see the scriptures denying that, but you are.

 

[BB1956]

Tenchi said,
The wicked remain conscious beyond the decease of their body, experiencing divine punishment in soul/spirit form, not escaping it, as annihilation would enable them to do.[/QUOTE\]

Matthew 10:28 shows that God will destroy the unrighteous, body and soul. Which means he will end the life of unrighteous persons for eternity, they will not live for eternity.

Someone agreeing with Matthew 10:28 agreeing that God can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna, just as Matthew 10:28 says. Then reasons that although God can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna it doesn't mean God will destroy both body and soul in Gehenna, has contradicted Matthew 10:28 because a person reasoning that God can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna but will not is saying we should not fear either the person who can destroy the body but not the soul but we shouldn't fear the person who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna either because they say God will not do that. So they're contradicting what Matthew 10:28 is saying.

 

[BB1956]

I am very much listening to the scripture I'm quoting. Angels are immortal, yet God could destroy them if he so chose. God could destroy everything with just a word if he wanted. God alone has that ability. In no way whatsoever does it not mean the soul isn't immortal.


So, in paying attention to the verse I gave, you'll notice it does not say that God "will destroy both body and soul in hell," only that he "is able" to.

So according to you we shouldn't fear the person who can only destroy the body but not the soul, and we shouldn't fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in gehenna either because you're saying although God can destroy both body and soul in gehenna he will not destroy both body and soul in gehenna. So why does this scripture say to fear the person who can destroy both body and soul in gehenna if he will not do that?

 

[Free]

So according to you we shouldn't fear the person who can only destroy the body but not the soul,

Correct.

and we shouldn't fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in gehenna either

No, I didn't say that.

because you're saying although God can destroy both body and soul in gehenna he will not destroy both body and soul in gehenna. So why does this scripture say to fear the person who can destroy both body and soul in gehenna if he will not do that?

Fear him because he has the power to do so, because he is God. "Can" and "will" are two very different things.

 

[BB1956]

Correct.


No, I didn't say that.


Fear him because he has the power to do so, because he is God. "Can" and "will" are two very different things.

If you say the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna will not then you have defeated the purpose of the scripture at Matthew 10:28. You fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna not only because he can but he will when it comes to those who God judges as so unrighteous they don't deserve eternal life.

 

[Free]

If you say the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna will not then you have defeated the purpose of the scripture at Matthew 10:28.

Not at all.

Luk 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him! (ESV)

You fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna not only because he can but he will when it comes to those who God judges as so unrighteous they don't deserve eternal life.

He will throw into hell, that is certain. It is the definition of "destroy," that is, what happens in hell, that matters.

Anyway, I believe the point is made that the NT brings additional understanding of the nature of man--that his soul is something distinct from his body.

 

[BB1956]

Not at all.

Luk 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him! (ESV)


He will throw into hell, that is certain. It is the definition of "destroy," that is, what happens in hell, that matters.

Anyway, I believe the point is made that the NT brings additional understanding of the nature of man--that his soul is something distinct from his body.

I understand what you believe concerning the scriptures, I simply disagree that what you're saying the scriptures are saying are actually saying what you believe they're saying. You and I disagree. Nothing that you've said to me has convinced me that what you believe the scriptures care saying are actually saying what you're believe they say. I understand you believe the same toward me. Like I said, you and I disagree.

 

[gordon777]

The nature of the soul and hell, ( to fear God) is achieved by Godly fear and reverence.

Godly fear is that of Jesus Christ ( the Spirit) and reverence is how the Son honoured the Father. ( in all things)


Psalm 89:7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.

Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.