What I understand about is you choose to not follow Jesus footsteps closely and reason on the scriptures. Revelation 20:14, 15 tells you the lake of fire is the second death, you're the one ignoring that because you believe death is a place when the scriptures show you death is a condition. So the second death is an eternal condition. When death and Hades are said to be thrown into the lake of fire it's a symbolic way of saying that the death that came into existence because of the sin of Adam and Eve is destroyed out of existence. This is in agreement with 1 Corinthians 15:26 which shows death will be brought to nothing.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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The Nature of the Soul and Hell
- Thread starter BB1956
- Start date
BPPLEE
Member
You still don’t address the scripture I quoted. How do you explain it? And you don’t know what I believe I’m just quoting scripture
It's my understanding that you quoted Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 19:20. I addressed that at post #497
BPPLEE
Member
Yeah. It just doesn’t fit with what you believe
Yeah actually it does, you just don't want to believe that the book of Revelation itself tells you the lake of fire is the second death. I'm not going to ignore that as you are doing. Death is a condition not a place. Because the scriptures say that the lake of fire is the second death then the lake of fire represents a condition. So when death and Hades are cast into “the lake of fire,” “the second death," they figuratively ‘die out’ of existence, and this signifies the end of Hades (Sheol), the common grave of mankind, as well as death that mankind inherited from Adam and Eve.
Let me know if you start another thread on it. I could get in on some of that.
I've always gotten the impression that hell is not exactly eternal, but I've never seen the take that it ends when death ends. Interesting observation.
This is that new thread, just so that no one is confused.
First of all, what is the soul? Some equate it with the spirit, but that's not correct. Some think that God gives you a soul which is also not correct.
The bible says you become a living soul; you are not given one as some people erroneously believe. God does not hand-out souls. The bible also states that the soul is not the spirit, also as some erroneously believe, and that they can be divided.The bible says that souls came out of the loins of Jacob. The bible also says that God has a soul.
Here's what the bible says regarding the soul. (Repost of mine of pertinent scriptures)
Gen2:7 KJV
"7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
The interlinear Hebrew says "being" (lenepes) not soul
Exodus 1:5 KJV
"And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already."
Souls are in your loins according to this scripture. Here, the interlinear does say "soul" in Hebrew and not "being". Two different Hebrew words; napes or nepes for souls vs. lenepes
And finally, Hebrews 4:12 KJV
"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
The interlinear Greek is "phyches" for soul and "pneumatos" for spirit
We should reason on what Genesis 2:7 says. You quoted it, you quoted a lot of scriptures, but we are not to just quote scripture or just read scripture. We are to reason on what we read in scripture. So what does Genesis 2:7 actually teach us?
Genesis 2:7 says, "And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust of the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul.
Let's now reason on Genesis 2:7
the first part Genesis 2:7 says, "And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust of the ground"
So isn't this first part of Genesis 2:7 saying that God formed a flesh and blood human body from the dust of the ground?
The last part of Genesis 2:7 says, "and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul."
So isn't this last part of Genesis 2:7 saying, that God blew the breath of life into the flesh and blood human body that he formed from the dust of the ground, and that when God blew the breath of life into that flesh and blood human body that flesh and blood human body became a living soul or living person?
So like you said, human beings are living souls or living persons. Human beings don't have living souls or living persons in their flesh and blood human bodies.
This also tells us something else too. Which is that before God blew the breath of life into that flesh and blood human body a living soul or living person wasn't in existence yet. So when the breath of life leaves the human body at death, that flesh and blood human body ceases to exist, as a living soul or living person.
This information that Genesis 2:7 teaches destroys doctrines such as the immortality of the soul, the Hellfire doctrine. It destroys the idea that the lake of fire is a literal place that humans go to to suffer in pain for eternity because human beings don't have living souls or living persons in their flesh and blood human body that separates and goes anywhere. The scriptures themselves show that the lake of fire isn't a place, it tells us it's the second death.
Highway54
Member
You are quite correct BB, God said we would die, it was satan that stated otherwise. If we continued to live on, what would be the point of the resurrection, or Jesus' death for that matter.
BB1956
We are immaterial souls joined to a physical body created by God from the dust of the ground. God breathed His breath/spirit into our nostrils that made this body a living soul. We are made up of three parts being spirit, soul and body that are joined together when we were conceived in our mother's womb.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The body is physical with five senses being sight, hearing, taste, smell and touch that connects with the world.
The soul is the part of the human being that will live on in eternity and with our soul, not our body, is the part of us that is to love God.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
In those two verses it speaks about our soul as being in relationship with God and not this fleshly body. It's our soul and spirit that needs regeneration by God's Spirit.
The life we have here on earth is temporal as our physical bodies will die and return to the dust and be remembered no more.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
1 John 3: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
The life and the blood is in Jesus who gives our soul eternal life with the Father by that of the blood sacrifice of Christ through God's grace that we are made righteous by the righteousness of God through the Spiritual rebirth. God is not going to reform our physical bodies that have returned to dust, but will raise us from the grave in new glorified bodies that we know not what we will look like.
We are immaterial souls joined to a physical body created by God from the dust of the ground. God breathed His breath/spirit into our nostrils that made this body a living soul. We are made up of three parts being spirit, soul and body that are joined together when we were conceived in our mother's womb.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The body is physical with five senses being sight, hearing, taste, smell and touch that connects with the world.
The soul is the part of the human being that will live on in eternity and with our soul, not our body, is the part of us that is to love God.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
In those two verses it speaks about our soul as being in relationship with God and not this fleshly body. It's our soul and spirit that needs regeneration by God's Spirit.
The life we have here on earth is temporal as our physical bodies will die and return to the dust and be remembered no more.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
1 John 3: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
The life and the blood is in Jesus who gives our soul eternal life with the Father by that of the blood sacrifice of Christ through God's grace that we are made righteous by the righteousness of God through the Spiritual rebirth. God is not going to reform our physical bodies that have returned to dust, but will raise us from the grave in new glorified bodies that we know not what we will look like.
Angels are essentially “ministering spirits,” (Hebrews 1:14) and do not have physical bodies like humans. Jesus declared that “a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” (Luke 24:37-39).
First off, Satan is a created spirit like all the angels God created and a spirit can not die. They have no flesh and blood like we do which is what Jesus said in Luke 24:37-39.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
None of those scriptures say anything about Satan being destroyed or anyone else that will be cast into the lake of fire, but that they will be tormented day and night forever.
Tenchi
Member
??? We are living souls inhabiting "houses of flesh"; we are not our bodies. And so, when a person dies, they - that is, their soul/spirit - goes on into eternity, either to a place of torment, or Paradise, until such time as Christ returns to earth and the Final Judgment occurs. (Luke 16:19-31; Matthew 17:1-3; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14, Revelations 6:9-10, etc.)
There is nothing of false religion, then, in the notion of the immortality of the human soul that endures beyond the death of the body.
This body/flesh dies and deteriorates as it turns back to dust while in the ground. The breath/spirit goes back to God who gave it, Ecc 12:7. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body/flesh at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.
Without the spirit/breath from God our soul would not be alive as spirit and soul are connected, Genesis 2:7. When we physically die our soul, as the breath, goes back to God who gave it. 1 Corinthians 15:50-58 speaks of the resurrection of the dead as those who have died that are the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus as this is the first resurrection. We will not be raised from the grave in our old physical bodies, but will be raised with new Glorified bodies which we not know what we will look like, but will be like Christ, 1John 3:1-3.
Death and hell are destroyed as there will be no more need of them. After the unrighteous are raised up when Christ returns, John 5:28, 29, and are judged and thrown into the lake of fire, Rev 20:13-15, as the sea, death and hell (grave) gave up those who were asleep in the grave to stand in God’s Great White throne judgment where the books are opened and another book opened that is the lamb’s Book of Life
Read 1Corinthians 15:54-57 and Rev 20:11-15 as it is death and hell thrown into the lake of fire that is the second death, not the unrighteous being the second death as they were delivered up for judgment first, John 5:28,29, and then death and hell were thrown into the lake of fire.
Death and hell are now taken out as they gave up the dead who were in them before the torment of the unrighteous as they will stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment and will be cast into the lake of fire for their names are not found in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
Without the spirit/breath from God our soul would not be alive as spirit and soul are connected, Genesis 2:7. When we physically die our soul, as the breath, goes back to God who gave it. 1 Corinthians 15:50-58 speaks of the resurrection of the dead as those who have died that are the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus as this is the first resurrection. We will not be raised from the grave in our old physical bodies, but will be raised with new Glorified bodies which we not know what we will look like, but will be like Christ, 1John 3:1-3.
Death and hell are destroyed as there will be no more need of them. After the unrighteous are raised up when Christ returns, John 5:28, 29, and are judged and thrown into the lake of fire, Rev 20:13-15, as the sea, death and hell (grave) gave up those who were asleep in the grave to stand in God’s Great White throne judgment where the books are opened and another book opened that is the lamb’s Book of Life
Read 1Corinthians 15:54-57 and Rev 20:11-15 as it is death and hell thrown into the lake of fire that is the second death, not the unrighteous being the second death as they were delivered up for judgment first, John 5:28,29, and then death and hell were thrown into the lake of fire.
Death and hell are now taken out as they gave up the dead who were in them before the torment of the unrighteous as they will stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment and will be cast into the lake of fire for their names are not found in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
The breath (spirit) of life that's in the flesh and blood human body of man, is also the same breath (spirit) of life that's in the flesh and blood animal body of animals. So just as the breath (spirit) of life that God blew into the flesh and blood human body wasn't a living soul or living person that he blew into the flesh and blood human body, it also wasn't a living soul or living animal that God blew into the flesh and blood animal body.
So I disagree with for_his_glory when he says human beings are immaterial souls joined to a physical body. The scriptures show that is incorrect because the scriptures teach us that it was the flesh and blood physical human body that became a living soul or living person when God blew the breath (spirit) of life into that flesh and blood physical human body.
Also why are people bringing up 1 Thessalonians 5:23 as though Paul was talking about how God created the human being. Paul wasn't talking about how God created the human being when he used such words as spirit, soul, and body at 1 Thessalonians 5:23. Paul was talking to the Thessalonian congregation when he used the words, spirit, soul, body. The word spirit there in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 means, the dominant attitude of the congregation; the word soul there means the life or existence of the congregation; the word body there means the composite group of anointed members that make up the congregation. I will not agree with taking scripture out of context.
Hebrews 4:12 is not teaching us that we have immaterial souls joined to our physical bodies. It's teaching us that
God’s Word is alive to alter our ways of thinking and living, and to have its truths in our heads and hearts is to have a powerful influence at work within us. It is no dead Word that has lost its interest or truthfulness, its practicalness or right interpretation of present events, and its protective power against the degradation of these immoral times. It has vitality and carries conviction and can show what is in us with a penetration and discernment far sharper than that of any worldly psychologist. It is no dead letter, its principles will stand, its judgments will be executed.
God’s Word does not stop at just a surface view of human actions but it penetrates beneath the surface to discern motives and attitudes, to divide between fleshly desires and mental dispositions. That these two forces exist within an individual Paul shows: “With my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law.” (Rom. 7:25) With his mind Paul served God’s law, but with his flesh he served the law of sin. So the life one lives as a human soul of flesh and blood may be different from what is one’s mental attitude or spirit. Hebrews 4:12 is differentiating between the life of an individual, or his soul, and his mental and heart attitude and inclination of mind. In the text “soul” means the life of the fleshly organism and “spirit” means the mental disposition or heart attitude of the individual. Christians should always examine their conduct in the light of their inward motives and be sure that any falling short is due to weak flesh and not deliberately done out of wrong heart condition. God’s Word will help us be discerning in examining ourselves and penetrate to the attitudes and heart intentions behind our conduct, to be sure that they are pure even when our lives may fall short of perfection. YHWH God takes all these things into consideration and sees us inside and out, for “all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him with whom we have an accounting.”(Heb. 4:13)
Matthew 10:28 teaches us that this text associates fire with Gehenna, it doesn't speak of any conscious existence, any suffering, after death. Rather, as shown in this text Jesus is pointing out that God can “destroy,” not merely the body, but the entire person, the soul(life) out of existence in Gehenna. This destruction is eternal.
Matthew 22:37 This scripture isn't teaching us that we have a immaterial soul joined to our physical body but instead teaches us that when the Bible writers use “heart” by itself in a text it's to describe man’s entire inner self. It encompasses such aspects as our desires, thoughts, disposition, attitudes, capabilities, motivations, and goals. (Deuteronomy 15:7; Proverbs 16:9; Acts 2:26.) As one reference work states, it is “the sum total of the interior man.” However in some cases, “heart” has a narrower meaning. For example, Jesus said at Matthew 22: 37: “You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.” In this instance, “heart” refers to the emotions, desires, and feelings of the inner person. By mentioning heart, soul, and mind separately as Jesus did here at Matthew 22:37, Jesus emphasized that we must express our love for God with our emotions, desires, and feelings, as well as by the way we lead our life and use our mental faculties. (John 17:3; Eph. 6:6)
Revelation 22:14 not only teaches us that death is cast into the lake of fire but it teaches us that the lake of fire is, the second death.
The very fact that this scripture teaches us that death is thrown into the lake of fire, means we can't say that death is an object, an animal a person or place, because it's not. This death that's thrown into the lake of fire, is the death that came into existence because of the disobedience of Adam and Eve. So this death is a condition that came into existence when Adam and Eve disobeyed God.
So what happens to it when it is thrown into the lake of fire? Isn't this death destroyed out of existence and isn't that consistent with 1 Corinthians 15:26?
The point is, the lake of fire is said to be the second death and just as the first death was a condition and not a place, neither is the lake of fire a literal place. It is a condition an eternal condition. The scriptures are using symbolic language to teach us that death, Hades, Satan and his demons and all the unrighteous humans who followed him will all be destroyed out of existence for eternity. God will destroy evil out of existence forever. Only those who have no faith that God can do that will not believe that God can destroy evil out of existence.
I disagree because at Genesis 2:7 this scripture is very clear that it was the flesh and blood human body that BECAME a living soul when God blew the breath (spirit) of life into that flesh and blood human body. Genesis 2:7 nowhere says that God GAVE the flesh and blood human body a living soul when he blew the breath (spirit) of life into the flesh and blood human body.
Anyone saying that we have a living soul or living person in our human bodies that separate after death is disagreeing with Genesis 2:7. They're saying the person isn't dead, but death is the opposite of life. If you're conscious, can feel, think, talk, etc then your living, you're alive. If you're not conscious, can't think, feel, talk, etc then you're dead, not living. If anyone denies that, then they have allowed the serpent who deceived Eve that she wouldn't die, to deceived them that there is no death and that a person continues living after death.
So just as those who worshiped false gods didn't believe in death but believed it to be a doorway to another plain of existence and that a person continued living after a human being dies, so these who say the human being has a living soul or living person in their human body that separates at death and continues living, they are agreeing with those who worship false gods.
Tenchi
Member
Sorry, but you've totally ignored all the verses I offered that indicate very clearly that what you've proposed here is in error. Are you a JW, by the way? The whole nephesh word-play thing is their go-to debate topic.