Bible Study The Nicolaitians and Revelation Ch. 2

[Betty]

It's
Irenaeus of Lyons
Book I

It's ancient (the original not the website). Written about 180 AD. Irenaeus knew and was taught by Polycarp personally. Polycarp knew and was taught by John personally for years. Irenaeus is my favorite among the early church fathers/writers. He get's to the point and makes some good arguments for his apologetics.

Does the link in the post not show up on your machine/browser?

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book1.html

Yes it does. I missed it in your original post. Sorry.

I'm reading it now.

 

[Betty]

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book1.html

"3. The Nicolaitanes are the followers of that Nicolas who was one of the seven first ordained to the diaconate by the apostles. They lead lives of unrestrained indulgence. The character of these men is very plainly pointed out in the Apocalypse of John, [when they are represented] as teaching that it is a matter of indifference to practise adultery, and to eat things sacrificed to idols. Wherefore the Word has also spoken of them thus: "But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate."​

What was going on there has analogies/parallels today (in differing degrees of direct comparison, I suppose). Think of the Priest's sexual seductions of alter boys or protestant preachers who use their leadership influence to gain women/sex, (even married women), etc. You can read Irenaeus' description at the link above. Basically, it was abuse of their power by the leadership (false leaders, even demon possessed) for their own personal gain (sexual or otherwise) in teaching and participating in all kinds of prohibited practices. They basically taught that since they were so great/powerful, they could commit adultery/fornication, etc. but that the rest of the people couldn't do this, yet. That is, not until they became "perfect enough" to do these things without harm. Yeah, right! And guess how that reached that perfect level of knowledge??? yep, giving them money/sex/etc.

Chapter VI:3. Wherefore also it comes to pass, that the "most perfect" among them addict themselves without fear to all those kinds of forbidden deeds of which the Scriptures assure us that "they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
For instance, they make no scruple about eating meats offered in sacrifice to idols, imagining that they can in this way contract no defilement.
...
Others of them, too, openly and without a blush, having become passionately attached to certain women, seduce them away from their husbands, and contract marriages of their own with them.
Others of them, again, who pretend at first. to live in all modesty with them as with sisters, have in course of time been revealed in their true colours, when the sister has been found with child by her [pretended] brother.​

As for "the blood", it's my understanding that there were some of these so-called "most perfect" Nicolaitian leaders/bishops that basically used a magic show/festival of a sorts to influence people into thinking they had miracle powers using blood (animal or human) mixed with wine in a communal cup past around. 'Drink this and you too can be enlighted like me' (type of thingy). Reminds me of give me $100 and I'll send you a magical prayer rag in the mail or Jim Jones or something. Irenaeus and other church fathers said they were demon possessed.

Chapter XIII:2
Pretending to consecrate cups mixed with wine, and protracting to great length the word of invocation, he contrives to give them a purple and reddish colour, so that Charis, who is one of those that are superior to all things, should be thought to drop her own blood into that cup through means of his invocation, and that thus those who are present should be led to rejoice to taste of that cup, in order that, by so doing, the Charis, who is set forth by this magician, may also flow into them. Again, handing mixed cups to the women, he bids them consecrate these in his presence. When this has been done, he himself produces another cup of much larger size than that which the deluded woman has consecrated, ) and pouting from the smaller one consecrated by the woman into that which has been brought forward by himself, he at the same time pronounces these words: "May that Chaffs who is before all things, and who transcends all knowledge and speech, fill thine inner man, and multiply in thee her own knowledge, by sowing the grain of mustard seed in thee as in good soil." Repeating certain other like words, and thus goading on the wretched woman [to madness], he then appears a worker of wonders when the large cup is seen to have been filled out of the small one, so as even to overflow by what has been obtained from it. By accomplishing several other similar things, he has completely deceived many, and drawn them away after him.​

I'm still reading through the book on the link, but I wanted to ask, when the book of Revelation was written, Nicholas was teaching and leading people astray away from the Oracles of God? Am I understanding that correctly?

The preface, I found to be very interesting. It directly states that they were going against the oracles of God.

1. Inasmuch as certain men have set the truth aside, and bring in lying words and vain genealogies, which, as the apostle says, "minister questions rather than godly edifying which is in faith," and by means of their craftily-constructed plausibilities draw away the minds of the inexperienced and take them captive, [I have felt constrained, my dear friend, to compose the following treatise in order to expose and counteract their machinations.] These men falsify the oracles of God, and prove themselves evil interpreters of the good word of revelation. They also overthrow the faith of many, by drawing them away, under a pretence of [superior] knowledge, from Him who rounded and adorned the universe; as if, forsooth, they had something more excellent and sublime to reveal, than that God who created the heaven and the earth, and all things that are therein. By means of specious and plausible words, they cunningly allure the simple-minded to inquire into their system; but they nevertheless clumsily destroy them, while they initiate them into their blasphemous and impious opinions respecting the Demiurge; and these simple ones are unable, even in such a matter, to distinguish falsehood from truth.



3. The Nicolaitanes are the followers of that Nicolas who was one of the seven first ordained to the diaconate by the apostles. They lead lives of unrestrained indulgence. The character of these men is very plainly pointed out in the Apocalypse of John, [when they are represented] as teaching that it is a matter of indifference to practise adultery, and to eat things sacrificed to idols. Wherefore the Word has also spoken of them thus: "But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate."

Since the letter is to the end time churches, the same teachings must still be present. Most people during that time didn't have personal bibles but relied on those who ministered to them. I thank the Lord that we have His word today.

I was going to post a study on the oracles of God this morning, with a scriptural description of what the oracles of God are. I'm still reading the article, but I'll add this for discussion.

I have to add it to the next post as it makes this post too long, and won't post.

They had some interesting teachings, like this one...wow. It's as though the false teachers were even making up their own things or clinging to pagan beliefs.

"Now, as soon as the Mother hears these words, she puts the Homeric helmet of Pluto upon them, so that they may invisibly escape the judge. And then she immediately catches them up, conducts them into the bridal chamber, and hands them over to their consorts."

It's as though they completely disregarded the scriptures.

 

[Betty]

The Oracles of God are HIS full counsel, (all scripture,) (every word that we are to live on as Jesus instructed,) If you look at the first definition listed from Strong’s Concordance, each word mentioned (and more!,) can be studied out for doctrine, correction, reproof, for instruction in righteousness, that we may be throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Tim 3:17).

The scriptures themselves speak clearly on the subject. I encourage you to read each verse listed below, and study it out for yourself.
The Oracles of God are defined as in Strong’s Concordance as:

1697 dabar daw-baw' from

; a word; by implication, a matter (as spoken of) or thing; adverbially, a cause:--act, advice, affair, answer, X any such (thing), because of, book, business, care, case, cause, certain rate, + chronicles, commandment, X commune(-ication), + concern(-ing), + confer, counsel, + dearth, decree, deed, X disease, due, duty, effect, + eloquent, errand, (evil favoured-)ness, + glory, + harm, hurt, + iniquity, + judgment, language, + lying, manner, matter, message, (no) thing, oracle, X ought, X parts, + pertaining, + please, portion, + power, promise, provision, purpose, question, rate, reason, report, request, X (as hast) said, sake, saying, sentence, + sign, + so, some (uncleanness), somewhat to say, + song, speech, X spoken, talk, task, + that, X there done, thing (concerning), thought, + thus, tidings, what(-soever), + wherewith, which,word, work.

Easton’s Bible Dictionary says this in regard to the Oracles of God.

“In the Old Testament used in every case, except Samuel 16:23 , to denote the most holy place in the temple ( Kings 6:5 Kings 6:19-23 ; :6 ). In Samuel 16:23 it means the Word of God. A man inquired "at the oracle of God" by means of the Urim and Thummim in the breastplate on the high priest's ephod. In the New Testament it is used only in the plural, and always denotes the Word of God ( Romans 3:2 ; Hebrews 5:12 , etc.). The Scriptures are called "living oracles" (Compare Hebrews 4:12 ) because of their quickening power ( Acts 7:38 ).”

In Psalm 28:1-2, The word ORACLE is defined as the inner santuary; "Holy of Holies".
A Psalm of David. Unto thee will I cry, O LORD my rock; be not silent to me: lest, if thou be silent to me, I become like them that go down into the pit. Hear the voice of my supplications, when I cry unto thee, when I lift up my hands toward thy holy ORACLE.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.


Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:Acts 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Romans 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Corinthians 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

1 Corinthians 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

1 Corinthians 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

1 Corinthians 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

1 Corinthians 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

 

[Nathan]

I'm sure there was/is reasons for their leader's seductive behaviors.

The church fathers that spoke of them (the ones conducting these practices and teachings) said that they were demon possessed. I don't think they were speaking hyperbole either. I mean, literally demon possessed.

So;

I'd say no, they didn't think they had eternal life. The Holy Spirit living in us, teaches us we have eternal life. Which is incompatible with demon possession. So if they really were demon possessed, they didn't have the Spirit's assurance too.


IDK. I don't know what goes through the minds of people suffering demon possession about their afterlife.

I'm not sure the possible reasons for their practices are limited to one or the other.

I forget which one (which church father) said so and where, but he said one of these guys got so controlled by his demon(s) that he literally just burst into flames one day and burnt up. He spoke of levels of deception, though.

I do not doubt they were some possessed. But Jesus would not have spoken to them, through John in Revelation, if they did not have a mind that could be turned toward God. In other words, they must have had some sort of faith in Christ or else He would not have addressed them in the Church.

There is a difference between thinking you have something and knowing you have it. They most certainly thought they had it, but that does not mean they knew they had it. Of course the Holy Spirit teaches us and assures us, but that does not mean those without do not assure themselves. Think about it - satan was sure he could be god.

 

[Betty]

"Those names of the elements which may be told, and are common, he has called Aeons, and words, and roots, and seeds, and fulnesses, and fruits. He asserts that each of these, and all that is peculiar to every one of them, is to be understood as contained in the name Ecclesia. Of these elements, the last letter of the last one uttered its voice, and this sound going forth generated its own elements after the image of the [other] elements, by which he affirms, that both the things here below were arranged into the order they occupy, and those that preceded them were called into existence. He also maintains that the letter itself, the sound of which followed that sound below, was received up again by the syllable to which it belonged, in order to the completion of the whole, but that the sound remained below as if cast outside. But the element itself from which the letter with its special pronunciation descended to that below, he affirms to consist of thirty letters, while each of these letters, again, contains other letters in itself, by means of which the name of the letter is expressed. And thus, again, others are named by other letters, and others still by others, so that the multitude of letters swells out into infinitude. You may more clearly understand what I mean by the following example:-The word Delta contains five letters, viz., D, E, L, T, A: these letters again, are written by other letters, and others still by others. If, then, the entire composition of the word Delta [when thus analyzed] runs out into infinitude, letters continually generating other letters, and following one another in constant succession, how much raster than that [one] word is the [entire] ocean of letters! And if even one letter be thus infinite, just consider the immensity of the letters in the entire name; out of which the Sige of Marcus has taught us the Propator is composed. For which reason the Father, knowing the incomprehensibleness of His own nature, assigned to the elements which He also terms Aeons, [the power] of each one uttering its own enunciation, because no one of them was capable by itself of uttering the whole."

A lot of this is going right over my head. But one thing that I notice in much of what was being said about Nicholas and his followers are some things that I actually hear today. It sounds as though they were following and teaching new age things, (which is really old, and not new.)

Someone was telling me about the "emergent church?' and how they tie things in that are actually associated with Hinduism and other eastern systems.

It's something I haven't spent a lot of time looking into, but what the person told me reminds me of what was being taught.

Much of what was being falsely taught as described, is actually quite troubling.

 

[chessman]

when the book of Revelation was written, Nicholas was teaching and leading people astray away from the Oracles of God? Am I understanding that correctly?

It is my understanding that scholars debate whether Nicholas himself ever taught these things or rather people after his death used his name to teach such things. Some say Nicholas was a fine teacher and people following his death corrupted his reputation. I don't know what is correct. It was common then for people to use someone's dead name to teach 'stuff'.

The Nicolaitanes are the followers of that Nicolas who was one of the seven first ordained to the diaconate by the apostles. They lead lives of unrestrained indulgence.

Technically Ireneaus (nor John) doesn't say Nicolas himself lived this way or taught this way. But maybe that's what he meant or what the guy translating copies of Ireneaus' writings thought he meant. I don't know.

 

[chessman]

I do not doubt they were some possessed. But Jesus would not have spoken to them, through John in Revelation, if they did not have a mind that could be turned toward God. In other words, they must have had some sort of faith in Christ or else He would not have addressed them in the Church

Were you asking and discussing the actual teachers and leaders or were you asking about those in the church these guys were leading astray? I see a difference.

John was told to address those being deceived, not the deceivers. Again, I see a difference.

 

[Nathan]

Were you asking and discussing the actual teachers and leaders or were you asking about those in the church these guys were leading astray? I see a difference.

John was told to address those being deceived, not the deceivers. Again, I see a difference.

Ah, I see. Yes, I think we were thinking of different people. I am talking about the ones being deceived. The ones deceiving are on the same level as satan, so there is no way to understand that mentality. The ones being deceived are the ones I care about.

 

[chessman]

Ah, I see. Yes, I think we were thinking of different people. I am talking about the ones being deceived. The ones deceiving are on the same level as satan, so there is no way to understand that mentality. The ones being deceived are the ones I care about.

Okay. If you don't mind then let me back up and use a Mulligan on a slightly different question than the one I understood:

One of the most important questions a person needs to ask themselves when studying this, about the Nicolatians, is why did they [the church in Pergamum] have no fear?

Because, even though they lived among Satan (demon possessed Nicolatians), Jesus knew they "hold fast" Jesus' name (they were anchored like a rock to The Rock, so-to-speak). What did they have to fear? Jesus even told the angel (the bishop) there to get rid of these demon possessed Nicolaitans holding to (anchored to the teachings of Satan (Balaam teachings). If they didn't get rid of them, He'd come and do it Himself with His sword and mouth. Now that's assurance. I'm not sure why anyone fears Satan. I don't.


In the church father's writings on this topic, they make the same point. One even building an argument that even the weakest believers there were protected from Satan.

I guess I just really understand your exact question about this Text. Who within the church at Pergamum has any fear and what are they fearing?

Here's the Text again:

Revelation 2:13-17 (NASB) ‘I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality. So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.’ ​

This, to me, is Jesus' assurance that He's got the church covered, even though they were living among devils. What's to fear?

 

[Nathan]

Okay. If you don't mind then let me back up and use a Mulligan on a slightly different question than the one I understood:



Because, even though they lived among Satan (demon possessed Nicolatians), Jesus knew they "hold fast" Jesus' name (they were anchored like a rock to The Rock, so-to-speak). What did they have to fear? Jesus even told the angel (the bishop) there to get rid of these demon possessed Nicolaitans holding to (anchored to the teachings of Satan (Balaam teachings). If they didn't get rid of them, He'd come a do it Himself with His sword and mouth. Now that's assurance. I'm not sure why anyone fears Satan. I don't.


In the church father's writings on this topic, they make the same point. One even building an argument that even the weakest believers there were protected from Satan.

I guess I just really understand your exact question about this Text. Who within the church at Pergamum has any fear and what are they fearing?

Here's the Text again:

Revelation 2:13-17 (NASB) ‘I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality. So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.’ ​

This, to me, is Jesus' assurance that He's got the church covered, even though they were living among devils. What's to fear?

I think the point of Jesus' statement was that they needed to get rid of the ones in their midst, so that they would not corrupt the rest.

We should fear God, IF we are not walking in His truth. If we do allow false doctrine, as this church was, and compromise the truth then we should fear God. But, as you said, there is assurance that Jesus has the church covered if they will turn back to Him fully.

The whole idea of this, if I am not mistaken, is that false doctrine left 'unchecked' can corrupt good doctrine in the mind of a believer. This cannot be just 'allowed' to happen, but needs to be addressed by those who know the truth.

 

[chessman]

It's as though they completely disregarded the scriptures.

Or, as you make a great point, they (the average person) didn't have the access to their own personal copies of the Bible like we do now. I lost count of how many Bibles I have now. Since starting to read/study with electronic copies, I've downloaded a bunch. [not that owning a copy or two Bibles necessarily prevents being deceived.]
But, yes, there were some really weird teachings going on then (and now).

Nice topic, BTW

 

[chessman]

I think the point of Jesus' statement was that they needed to get rid of the ones in their midst, so that they would not corrupt the rest.

Actually the Text says causing the church to "stumble", not corrupt. But yes, other than that difference, He was telling them to get rid of the Nicolatians (among other things).

 

[Nathan]

Actually the Text says causing the church to "stumble", not corrupt. But yes, other than that difference, He was telling them to get rid of the Nicolatians (among other things).

Ah, yes. What happens when a person keeps stumbling? Literally, not figuratively.

 

[chessman]

We should fear God, IF we are not walking in His truth.

Yes.

The whole idea of this, if I am not mistaken, is that false doctrine left 'unchecked' can corrupt good doctrine in the mind of a believer.

I think that's part of the idea Jesus presents here, yes. But not the whole idea.

The church (and in particular it's current bishop) needed to repent of allowing a certain level of tolerance (evidently) of the false teachers living there, yes. But one way or the other (them get rid of them or Jesus doing it for them), Jesus was looking out for them. As He always does.

It's a bit easy to fall into an anachronism here too. It's not like the church here was in the majority and they could just vote to exile the Nicolaitans from the city. There's a reason Antipas was martyred here. I think I recall estimates of the church being about 50-60 in John's lifetime with about 200,000 other Pagans there.

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...places/biblical-archaeology-sites/pergamon-2/

The city suffered a major earthquake in 262 AD and was never the same.

 

[chessman]

Ah, yes. What happens when a person keeps stumbling? Literally, not figuratively.

Literally, they get back up and learn to walk better each time.

Biblically, they are helped with this learning process:

Psalm 37:24 (NASB) When he falls, he will not be hurled headlong, Because the Lord is the One who holds his hand. ​

Why do you ask?

 

[Nathan]

Literally, they get back up and learn to walk better each time.

Biblically, they are helped with this learning process:

Psalm 37:24 (NASB) When he falls, he will not be hurled headlong, Because the Lord is the One who holds his hand. ​

Why do you ask?

I suppose that I've never found that if I keep stumbling I don't eventually fall.

Maybe I'm just that clumsy.