The Old Testament Laws

[Classik]

What if the OT Laws are valid today? I mean, what if all the laws are still practised today?

Perhaps we'd live in a less corrupt world.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

What if the OT Laws are valid today? I mean, what if all the laws are still practised today?

Perhaps we'd live in a less corrupt world.

The law cannot justify, it can only condemn. The law shows us that, no matter how hard we try, we will never be able to save ourselves. If we kept every single law every single day throughout lives, we'd still fail, because we would constantly be thinking of the sins we are trying to avoid putting into action. Those thoughts are sufficient to condemn us. So we could practice the laws. They just wouldn't do us any eternal good. They might make us a better person outwardly, but inside we'd still be the bound-up, sinful difficult person we were before we met Christ. If we've truly surrendered to Him, all that is gone and all that is left is His love and grace, to be shared with and reflected to others.

 

[Classik]

Thank God for Christ. However the people of the OT feared God more. Today people do all sort of crazy things...and just keep justifying such awful deeds

 

[Nick]

Moved to Apologetics & Theology.

 

[John 8:32]

The law cannot justify, it can only condemn. The law shows us that, no matter how hard we try, we will never be able to save ourselves. If we kept every single law every single day throughout lives, we'd still fail, because we would constantly be thinking of the sins we are trying to avoid putting into action. Those thoughts are sufficient to condemn us. So we could practice the laws. They just wouldn't do us any eternal good. They might make us a better person outwardly, but inside we'd still be the bound-up, sinful difficult person we were before we met Christ. If we've truly surrendered to Him, all that is gone and all that is left is His love and grace, to be shared with and reflected to others.

Interesting answer, but you did what my wife does on occasion, she answers a different question than the one asked of her. The question was NOT can the law justify one, the answer to that is obviously no. The question is what if everyone obeyed those laws? The world would be a very pleasant place to live indeed. No keys because you never have to lock anything. No fear, you could walk down 42nd street at 3:00AM with out worry. No war, James tells us that war comes from lust. Perfect weather, droughts, floods and other foul weather would be eliminated. Divorce would be virtually nonexistent, there would be no porn, prostitution, adultery etc. Children would grow up in stabe families. There would be universal well being and wealth.

All of this is predicated on the condition that everyone obeyed. For this to occur, there must also be no Devil to stir up disobedience.

Sounds like the Millenium, doesn't it?

 

[P31Woman]

What if the OT Laws are valid today? I mean, what if all the laws are still practised today?

Perhaps we'd live in a less corrupt world.

The moral law. The civil and ceremonial laws don't apply.

 

[John 8:32]

The moral law. The civil and ceremonial laws don't apply.

Depends on what you mean by that. These laws outdated?

Exo 22:2 If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.
Exo 22:3 If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.
Exo 22:4 If the theft be certainly found in his hand alive, whether it be ox, or ass, or sheep; he shall restore double.

Exo 22:25 If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury.

I'd like to see banks live by this one.

Exo 22:19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

Exo 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
Exo 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:
Exo 23:3 Neither shalt thou countenance a poor man in his cause.

Having read these and the other laws, I do not understand why people disdain and even hate them.

Lev 15:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying,
Lev 15:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When any man hath a running issue out of his flesh, because of his issue he is unclean.
Lev 15:3 And this shall be his uncleanness in his issue: whether his flesh run with his issue, or his flesh be stopped from his issue, it is his uncleanness.
Lev 15:4 Every bed, whereon he lieth that hath the issue, is unclean: and every thing, whereon he sitteth, shall be unclean.

The laws of quarantine would serve us pretty well during this influenza outbreak. If people would stay home when they are sick, then others would not be infected.

 

[P31Woman]

Depends on what you mean by that. These laws outdated?

Exo 22:2 If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.
Exo 22:3 If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.
Exo 22:4 If the theft be certainly found in his hand alive, whether it be ox, or ass, or sheep; he shall restore double.

Exo 22:25 If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury.

I'd like to see banks live by this one.

Exo 22:19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

Exo 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
Exo 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:
Exo 23:3 Neither shalt thou countenance a poor man in his cause.

Having read these and the other laws, I do not understand why people disdain and even hate them.

Lev 15:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying,
Lev 15:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When any man hath a running issue out of his flesh, because of his issue he is unclean.
Lev 15:3 And this shall be his uncleanness in his issue: whether his flesh run with his issue, or his flesh be stopped from his issue, it is his uncleanness.
Lev 15:4 Every bed, whereon he lieth that hath the issue, is unclean: and every thing, whereon he sitteth, shall be unclean.

The laws of quarantine would serve us pretty well during this influenza outbreak. If people would stay home when they are sick, then others would not be infected.

I see ""love thy neighbor as thy self" in many of those passages. Yes I see moral laws I am to uphold. I look for the spirit of the law.

BTW, Half those verses don't make much sense to me. I speak redneck American language.:amen

Here is an example of an OT law that I believe is moral law.

Deu. 22:8 When you build a new house, make a parapet around your roof so that you may not bring the guilt of bloodshed on your house if someone falls from the roof.

I see the spirit of this law being about making sure your home is safe for all who enter. (fence around the swimming pool, hand rail in the staircase, not live wires exposed, etc)

 

[Sinthesis]

What if the OT Laws are valid today? I mean, what if all the laws are still practised today?

Perhaps we'd live in a less corrupt world.

Not without the Holy Spirit guiding everyone. Otherwise you would just end up with something like sharia islam, which would be hell on earth.

 

[John 8:32]

I see ""love thy neighbor as thy self" in many of those passages. Yes I see moral laws I am to uphold. I look for the spirit of the law.

BTW, Half those verses don't make much sense to me. I speak redneck American language.:amen

Here is an example of an OT law that I believe is moral law.

Deu. 22:8 When you build a new house, make a parapet around your roof so that you may not bring the guilt of bloodshed on your house if someone falls from the roof.

I see the spirit of this law being about making sure your home is safe for all who enter. (fence around the swimming pool, hand rail in the staircase, not live wires exposed, etc)

Excellent insight. You actually are seeing the intent of the law as God intended. Far too many people dismiss the Laws of Moses as "nailed to the cross" when in actuality, what was nailed to the cross was the note of debt we have accumulated by breaking them.

Just for fun, let's see if those verses you referred to can be made to make sense...

Exo 22:2 If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.

A thief breaks into a house hurts himself or is shot by the homeowner. He is paid for, the homeowner is not responsible and is not to be punished.

Exo 22:3 If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.

The 1611 English is a little cumbersome here but what this verse says is that if the thief does not die, then he (the thief) is responsible for any damages or losses that the homeowner incurs because of his breakin.

Exo 22:4 If the theft be certainly found in his hand alive, whether it be ox, or ass, or sheep; he shall restore double.

You catch a thief with the goods in his hand, he repays double to those whom he stole from.

Hey, that ain't a bad idea, I'd like to see the cops enforce that.

Seems like most of those verses are self explanatory, but let's look at this set...

Exo 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.

Do not report something that is false and don't go into cahoots with an evil person to be a false witness.

Exo 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:

Ever hear of mob mentality? Don't follow a mob that is doing wrong, it doesn't matter if everyone else is doing it. Don't speak for a cause that turns people to do unrighteousness.

Exo 23:3 Neither shalt thou countenance a poor man in his cause.

Don't take the poor man's side just because he is poor, what comes to mind here is a lady in FL who was awarded a large some of money because she spilled hot coffee in here lap. Now if the chain had been wronged by here, would the jury award a huge cash settlement to the fast food chain? No, everyone would have screamed bloody murder.

Now remember these are those terrible laws that are a burden and people just hate them.

Here's a freebie...

Exo 23:10 And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the harvest thereof:
Exo 23:11 But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard.

Land management, but we would rather extract everylast ounce of produce form the land by overworking it and pumping it full of chemical fertilizers. What's this organic thing about anyhoo?

 

[John 8:32]

Not without the Holy Spirit guiding everyone. Otherwise you would just end up with something like sharia islam, which would be hell on earth.

Israelite society did not resemble Sharia Islam in any fashion. Gut you are right about the Holy Spirit, God even lamented that...

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

But the Holy Spirit, conversion and eternal life were never offered or included in the Old Covenant.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Israelite society did not resemble Sharia Islam in any fashion.

"But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you." -Deuteronomy 22:20-21

 

[John 8:32]

"But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you." -Deuteronomy 22:20-21

So, this compares to shooting a girl in the head for attending school?

 

[VirginShallConceive]

So, this compares to shooting a girl in the head for attending school?

1) "Girls attending school" was probably so far out of the question that they didn't even have to mention it in the Torah. Did the Israelites even have schools?

2)The person that shot her fled because he probably knew it was against the law to do so.

3)You said, "Israelite society did not resemble Sharia Islam in any fashion". Just because a law is only 90% as brutal as another, that doesn't mean that it doesn't resemble it.

 

[Guest]

What if the OT Laws are valid today? I mean, what if all the laws are still practised today?

Perhaps we'd live in a less corrupt world.

Hi Classik, yes the OT laws are still valid today. We have to discern truth behind who the Lord was/is in the OT in order for revelation to. Meditate on the NT Hebrews 11. Belief and Faith are needed to discern truth. Blessings.

A quote from friend - 'Hebrews was written to Jews, it refers to OT patriarchs and figures that believed in the Yahshua before He was born and were saved as they will be if they believe on Him today, if you hear His Voice harden not your heart, as they did in the day of rebellion. This is what Paul is saying to his Jewish or Hebrew brethern, what the prophets are suffering today is exactly what Abraham and all the others had to go through to inherit the promises.'

 

[Classik]

Hi Classik, yes the OT laws are still valid today. We have to discern truth behind who the Lord was/is in the OT in order for revelation to. Meditate on the NT Hebrews 11. Belief and Faith are needed to discern truth. Blessings.

A quote from friend - 'Hebrews was written to Jews, it refers to OT patriarchs and figures that believed in the Yahshua before He was born and were saved as they will be if they believe on Him today, if you hear His Voice harden not your heart, as they did in the day of rebellion. This is what Paul is saying to his Jewish or Hebrew brethern, what the prophets are suffering today is exactly what Abraham and all the others had to go through to inherit the promises.'

Thanks Some of the Laws are still valid.

 

[Deborah13]

Thanks Some of the Laws are still valid.

All the law is fulfilled in these two

Matthew 22:37-39

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

37 And He said to him, “‘(A)You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and [a]foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘(B)You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

 

[John 8:32]

Thanks Some of the Laws are still valid.

Actually, they all are, else Christ lied...

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Earlier, we discussed the underlying principles of a few. There are some that cannot be implemented now, the laws around the Temple and physical sacrifices cannot be carried out today. Conditions have changed. There is no Temple in Jerusalem and there is no consecrated earthly Priesthood. But are we to sacrifice today? You betcha!...

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Some of the laws were civil or national laws. Would it be good the USA to implement them? Yes it would, but the government we have does not. As an individual, can you implement them nationally, statewide or even locally? No.

So even though no law is done away, the application of some has changed. The Passover is a perfect example, we no longer roast a lamb and eat it in haste. Christ changed the symbols from the roasted lamb to unleavened bread and wine...

1Co 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
1Co 11:21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
1Co 11:22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Days of Unleavened Bread?

1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Paul shows here that there is now a deeper, more spiritual component to these Feast days.

 

[John 8:32]

All the law is fulfilled in these two

Matthew 22:37-39

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

37 And He said to him, “‘(A)You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and [a]foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘(B)You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

These two are the details of the Great Law, the Law of Love.

These two Laws have detail Laws, the Ten Commandments...

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

The Commandments are the details of fulfilling the Law of Love.

 

[P31Woman]

IMHO the OT laws show us the heart of God. I for one feel much like David and love those laws. I see the spirit of those laws.

Ps 119 NASV

41 May Your lovingkindnesses also come to me, O Lord,
Your salvation according to Your [o]word;
42 So I will have an answer for him who reproaches me,
For I trust in Your word.
43 And do not take the word of truth utterly out of my mouth,
For I [p]wait for Your ordinances.
44 So I will keep Your law continually,
Forever and ever.
45 And I will walk [q]at liberty,
For I seek Your precepts.
46 I will also speak of Your testimonies before kings
And shall not be ashamed.
47 I shall [r]delight in Your commandments,
Which I love.
48 And I shall lift up my hands to Your commandments,
Which I love;
And I will meditate on Your statutes.




I do NOT obey the letter of the law nor try. I do NOT believe the law can do anything other than confict me of my sins.

I believe it's the shed blood of Jesus Christ that paid MY sin debt. Jesus did for me what the law could never do. Jesus fufilled the righteous standards of the laws.

I don't believe you can put "love" in a box of a few hundred laws. It's much bigger than that. They only point us in the right directions....the cross of Jesus. From there on the Holy Spirit becomes our guide.