[_ Old Earth _] The Order of Creation

[paxigoth7]

Lately I've become fascinated with understanding what a literalist order of the creation events would look like. In other words, what order was everything created in? What happened on what day? I've started a poll to better help answer my questions...

 

[paxigoth7]

I'm really interested in someone providing me with a chronology of what happened...

 

[mh13]

Day 1 - God created light (read Rev 21 and 22 for more on God's light)

Day 2 - God created the atmosphere. Note that there was a vapor or ice canopy above the atmosphere which can explain pre-flood longevities
http://www.theyoungearth.com/ayoungearth/id3.html

On either day 1 or 2 angels were created

Day 3 - foundations of the earth laid, the dry land appeared

Day 4 - sun moon and stars created. The early church used this as an apologetic against sun-worshiping pagans. The Christian God created light BEFORE the sun

Day 5 - birds, fish

Day 6 -Reptiles, land dwelling mammals, Adam and Eve

Note that these days are literal 24 hour days. They have to be according to Exodus 20:11 http://www.theyoungearth.com/ayoungearth/id24.html

 

[Quath]

According to Gen 2, God made Adam, plants & animals, and then Eve. So do you think Gen 2 got it wrong?

Quath

 

[mh13]

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creatio ... enesis.asp

http://www.bibletruths.net/Archives/BTAR133.htm

 

[Grace Alone]

May I say "other?"

This is the order in which I believe God created, according to Genesis 1:

Day 1. The earth and the heavenly bodies (i.e. the physical universe)
Day 2. Water cycle established
Day 3. dry land and oceans, plants
Day 4. God reveals the heavenly bodies to the earth by transforming the atmosphere from translucent to transparent (the bodies were actually created on day one)
Day 5. fish and birds
Day 6. animals, man and woman

 

[Quath]

I like how the Jewish people try to reconcile some of this. They assume God made Adam and Lilith. However, Lilith didn't like being lesser to Adam (she wanted to be on top) and she left Eden. She then had a whole lot of demon babies. It sounds very funny (no more silly than the rest of the Bible I guess). But it goes on to some deal made between Lilith and some angels where she tries to capture infants and 100 of her demon babies die a day.

There is also a story where God made Eve and Adam saw her made and was too disgusted and could not mate with her. He got Eve version 2.0 later on.

Quath

 

[paxigoth7]

No, I do not want to read garbage from 'Answers in Genesis', I want you literalists to tell me how you personally make literal sense out of what is blatant contradiction if we take Genesis literally. I don't think there are contradictions in the creation stories--but I take them metaphorically. If you want me to consider the literal approach, supply valid explanations for the following contradictions...

 

[paxigoth7]

1. Was the 'heavens and the earth' created in 6 literal 24 hr days (Genesis 1.1-2.3) or was the entire project created in one day (Genesis 2.4). I know some translations play with the problem, but I also know that the same Hebrew word, yom, is used in both settings, so don't just quote a translation that doesn't use 'day' and think that solves the problem.

 

[paxigoth7]

2. Did God really create 'ex-nihilo' from nothing? The Hebrew word, bara, actually means 're-create'. Hmm, if something was there before creation as we know it, wouldn't that mean that that something was around millions of years? Can we really say the universe itself is young? Or do we just mean that the human race is young?

 

[paxigoth7]

3. Supposedly, God made things progressively in 6 literal 24 hr earth days, right? A literalist will not allow for any other meaning of 'day' here. So, what is a literal 24 hr earth day? One complete rotation of the earth around the sun. The first of which apparently took place before God made the earth and the sun (see v. 5-19). How do you get a literal day before it is possible for a literal day to occur? If your answer is 'with God all things are possible' then does that include things that aren't even things? Like a four sided triangle. Maybe we should believe in their literal existence. Oh, of course, some things just don't happen. Because they aren't things. And if it isn't a thing, it's not possible with God.... like literal 24 hr days before the sun and the earth are made. And the Hebrew here actually has 'setting and breaking' in specific reference to the sun. But there wasn't a sun. Any reasonable suggestions?

 

[paxigoth7]

4. I'm still waiting for an exhaustive chronology. I want someone to explain to me how man can be last in the order of creation when Genesis 2 clearly states that animals were created after man. If you look at the two, they are making contradictory claims. And in each case, the language is all inclusive, it uses phrases like 'all of the animals' and 'all of the trees' so you can't fudge the story and say that God made evergreens and dinos, then Adam, and then tulips and hippos. At least not if you stay true to literalism you can't...

 

[mh13]

I gave links to 2 great articles about the alleged "contradictions". I do not have time to sit here and write basically the same thing in my posts to a scoffer who doesn't want to believe the word of God anyway!

But just so I won't get accused of ducking the issue, here is as good of a response to the issue as I can find. This is from http://www.drdino.com under his articles section, contradictions in the Bible part 1

Do Genesis chapters 1 and 2 conflict? Many scoffers claim that the Bible is full of contradictions. They will nearly always cite Genesis 1 and 2 as examples.

Supposed Contradiction # 1:
Gen. 1:11 has the trees made on day 3 before man;
Gen. 2:8 has the trees made on day 6 after man.
Gen. 1:20 has birds made out of the water on day 5;
Gen. 2:19 has birds made out of the ground (after man) on day 6.
Gen. 1:24, 25 has the animals made on day 6 before man;
Gen. 2:19 has the animals made on day 6 after man.
Here is the solution:
A careful reading of the two chapters will show the solution for each of the supposed contradictions.

Explanation of supposed contradiction a:
Chapter 1 tells the entire story in the order it happened.
Gen. 2:4-6 gives a quick summary of the first five days of creation.
Gen. 2:7-25 is describing only the events that took place on day 6 in the Garden of Eden.
The trees described in Genesis 2:8 are only in the Garden (the rest of the world is already full of trees from day 3). The purpose of this second creation of trees may have been to let Adam see that God did have power to create, that He was not just taking credit for the existing world. Notice that the second creation of trees was still on day 6 and was only those trees that are "pleasant to the sight and good for food."

Explanation of supposed contradiction b:
The birds created out of the ground on day 6 are only one of each "kind" so that Adam can name them and select a wife. The rest of the world is full of birds from day 5.

Explanation of supposed contradiction c:
Genesis 2:19 is describing only the animals created in the Garden, after man. The purpose of this second batch of animals being created was so that Adam could name them (Gen. 2:19) and select a wife (Gen. 2:20). Adam, not finding a suitable one (God knew he wouldn't), God made Eve (Gen. 2:21-22).
There are no contradictions between these two chapters. Chapter 2 only describes in more detail the events in the Garden of Eden on day 6. If ancient man had written the Bible (as some scoffers say), he would never have made it say that the light was made before the sun! Many ancient cultures worshiped the sun as the source of life. God is light. God made the light before He made the sun so we could see that He (not the sun) is the source of life.
e is

 

[Grace Alone]

Supposedly, God made things progressively in 6 literal 24 hr earth days, right? A literalist will not allow for any other meaning of 'day' here.

Not true. I believe in a literal interpretation of creation, but I do not believe in 24 hour days. I do not believe the earth is only 6,000 years old. Because 'yom' can be translated as a period of time, my view of creation is just as literal as mhess13's.

.... like literal 24 hr days before the sun and the earth are made. And the Hebrew here actually has 'setting and breaking' in specific reference to the sun. But there wasn't a sun. Any reasonable suggestions?

The sun was created on the first day. Verse one says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." What do the heavens consist of? Well, stars for one thing, right? There was indeed a sun on the first day.

 

[paxigoth7]

How literal is not as literal?

I don't disbelieve the creation stories. I'm _not_ an evolutionist, theistic or otherwise. But here is the method I follow: whenever a wouldbe contradiction pops up, I find a metaphorical reading that doesn't contradict.

However, for some people, literalism doesn't just mean taking the Bible seriously and as straight forward as possible--it means literal down to every word.

Ok, so 'day' is used in more than one sense. More specifically, a non-literal sense. That's still taking it seriously as inspired, but not as literally. That's about where my personal stance is. Of course, saying day isn't always literal 24 hr periods is a form of de-literalising. GraceAlone, I'm fine with your answer to the 'day' question.

Not so with the sun issue. That's still a blatant issue no one has answered. Notice exactly what the verses here say:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (v.1)

It doesn't say on the first day. Plus, 'heavens and earth' is taken from a Hebrew merism meaning everything that is. A more literal translation would be 'In the beginning God created all that is seen and unseen'. Come to think of it, that's how an ancient creed states it...

v.3 begins a new paragraph, new thought:

Light is created on the first day. At the end of the first day, you literally have 'and there was sun set and daybreak, the first day'. That is exactly how we would state a literal day, the rotation of the earth around the sun.

Yet, in v.16 God makes the greater light to rule the day (sun). Then the moon is made to rule the night. So, how can we speak in terms of the sun forming a function before there is a sun?

Still, its beautiful poetic theology--and literal nonsense.

 

[Grace Alone]

4. I'm still waiting for an exhaustive chronology. I want someone to explain to me how man can be last in the order of creation when Genesis 2 clearly states that animals were created after man. If you look at the two, they are making contradictory claims. And in each case, the language is all inclusive, it uses phrases like 'all of the animals' and 'all of the trees' so you can't fudge the story and say that God made evergreens and dinos, then Adam, and then tulips and hippos. At least not if you stay true to literalism you can't...

This is just off the top of my head - I've never thought that much about the seeming contradiction....

The first account is more scientific and tells precisely what God did when. It gives an outline of the order in which God created. The second account seems to be told in a more casual and personal manner, and it seems to focus on man, while the other creations fall to the background. As for why there are two accounts, I really don't know, but now you've got me thinking.

 

[mh13]

As for why there are two accounts, I really don't know, but now you've got me thinking.

I believe that genesis has different authors and Moses compiled the accounts. That explains the different styles

http://www.theyoungearth.com/ayoungearth/id51.html

 

[mh13]

Supposedly, God made things progressively in 6 literal 24 hr earth days, right? A literalist will not allow for any other meaning of 'day' here.

Not true. I believe in a literal interpretation of creation, but I do not believe in 24 hour days. I do not believe the earth is only 6,000 years old. Because 'yom' can be translated as a period of time, my view of creation is just as literal as mhess13's.

.... like literal 24 hr days before the sun and the earth are made. And the Hebrew here actually has 'setting and breaking' in specific reference to the sun. But there wasn't a sun. Any reasonable suggestions?

The sun was created on the first day. Verse one says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." What do the heavens consist of? Well, stars for one thing, right? There was indeed a sun on the first day.

I've debated with you before about long ages. I appreciate that you try to hold to a literal reading of scripture, but your theory puts death before Adam's sin. The WHOLE creation was cursed as a result of man's fall. YES I know that death was spiritual, but PHYSICAL death was also a result of the fall. Long ages makes death part of God's perfect plan. What would that say about God's character??????

 

[Grace Alone]

Ok, so 'day' is used in more than one sense. More specifically, a non-literal sense. That's still taking it seriously as inspired, but not as literally. That's about where my personal stance is. Of course, saying day isn't always literal 24 hr periods is a form of de-literalising. GraceAlone, I'm fine with your answer to the 'day' question.

Ah, but it isn't non-literal. There are two different definition for yom: day or period of time. Just because we almost always use 'day' as a 24 hour period, doesn't make the second definition any less literal. But, I suppose that point isn't all that important to the discussion right now.

Ugh...I just looked at the time. How is it I always get sucked into these interesting discussions on days when I need to get going? :-? For now, I'll be brief, but I would love to discuss the issues you raise below in greater detail later.....

Not so with the sun issue. That's still a blatant issue no one has answered. Notice exactly what the verses here say:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (v.1)

It doesn't say on the first day. Plus, 'heavens and earth' is taken from a Hebrew merism meaning everything that is. A more literal translation would be 'In the beginning God created all that is seen and unseen'. Come to think of it, that's how an ancient creed states it...

Creating the heavens and the earth was the first creative act....the big bang, if you will. If it is the first act of creation, then it took place on the first day.

Could you post more about the Hebrew with regards to 'heaven and earth?' I've never heard that. I know very little about Hebrew - I'm lost without Strong's. :D

v.3 begins a new paragraph, new thought:

Light is created on the first day. At the end of the first day, you literally have 'and there was sun set and daybreak, the first day'. That is exactly how we would state a literal day, the rotation of the earth around the sun.

I've always heard that the in the actual Hebrew the statement is "evening and morning 'n' day." And that's it. Rather cryptic.

Yet, in v.16 God makes the greater light to rule the day (sun). Then the moon is made to rule the night. So, how can we speak in terms of the sun forming a function before there is a sun?

This verse does not say that he created them on this day. It simply says, God made - past tense. This could mean 'God previously made'...or it could indeed mean, 'God made on this day.' I believe the text is telling us that in the past, God made the sun and the moon, and that on this day the atmosphere changes and becomes translucent so that they can be seen from the earth. "Let there be" is a command of appearance, rather than creation. From the earth's perspective, the sun and moon are now visible.

I know I haven't backed up any of my assertions yet. I gotta get going soon, but feel free to respond to what I have said thus far, and I will lay my thoughts out more clearly when I have more time.

 

[Grace Alone]

I've debated with you before about long ages. I appreciate that you try to hold to a literal reading of scripture, but your theory puts death before Adam's sin. The WHOLE creation was cursed as a result of man's fall. YES I know that death was spiritual, but PHYSICAL death was also a result of the fall. Long ages makes death part of God's perfect plan. What would that say about God's character??????

I don't think we got very far in that debate. I never got to talk about death. :D I would like to though. As I said to Pax - I gotta run to meet my mom for lunch, but I would like to comment when I have time.

Although, is that okay on this thread? I don't want to derail Pax's original intent. Perhaps if it is important that we talk about death, we should start a separate thread so that we don't have too much going on here. Is it something that we should talk about?