[_ Old Earth _] The Order of Creation

[Grace Alone]

As for why there are two accounts, I really don't know, but now you've got me thinking.

I believe that genesis has different authors and Moses compiled the accounts. That explains the different styles

http://www.theyoungearth.com/ayoungearth/id51.html

If that is the case, there is still the problem of them not matching up to each other. I'll check out the link you provided when I get home. Maybe that explains the seeming contradiction. Whether it was written by one person or two, we still have to deal with the fact that the chronology seems to be inconsistent.

 

[paxigoth7]

Sure, we can talk about death here. But I want to make one comment. There is no reason to project death before the existence of sin regardless of your view on creation. Saying that animals lived for a million years before man would not enter death into the equation. Ya know that whole thing about people living to be 900 yrs or so? In Genesis, after sin had begun degrading reality but before it is like it is now?
Hmmm... maybe the original dinos were the original dinos. Maybe there were a group of dinos, that really date back a million years or so and they lived. And were happy types. Enter sin in the equation, a million years later, and they devolve (not evolve) into things like T rex's and eat each other.

I'm a devolutionist. Evolutionists are right about species changing, but they are wrong in the direction things go in.

 

[paxigoth7]

...'heavens' and 'earth' are being used metaphorically. 'heaven' was always a Jewish metaphor for the spiritual realm of that which is unseen. God creating the 'heavens' would include whatever angelic/celestial whatever there is. The 'heavens' is the realm of the spiritual, of good, love, truth, prayer, etc. The 'earth' would be all that is seen. A careful translation will make the distinction between 'heavens' and 'sky' in the creation stories for this very reason.

but, of course, this does make for an interesting consideration. if God make the heavens and the earth at the 'beginning' and Ch. 2 says the heavens and the earth were made in a 'day' (read time frame) then the beginning of each story begins the same, in agreement.

each story goes on to tell one side of things, using metaphorical and symbolic language at will. the first is mainly about God, the second mainly us. that's fine. they still come from two different Hebrew groups at two different times in history (neither being Moses). between Ch.2.v.3a and v3b is a complete split in the Hebrew. it forms into two different stanzas.

different Hebrew names for God are used in the two different stories. the first is written in poetry. if you look at the Hebrew, it rhymes. there is a chorus if you want to sing it and everything.

this may just explain why it is figurative. song and poetry is necessarily figurative.

i'm not sure why it is so hard for people to accept that God may have inspired song and poetry. when we read some of the stories in the OT, we have to accept that God inspired some really strange stuff. if we can't consider that God may have inspired poems, songs, parables and the sort, then don't we have a limited view of God?

 

[Quath]

The more secular view is that while Israel was split, the tribe in Babylon asorbed some of their stories and the ones that went to Egypt and were left behind had their stories. After they rejoined and sometime long after the date Moses was suppose to have lived, writers tried to reconcile the different stories of the Bible. In some cases, they just listed one version of the story and followed it by the other version. When the stories were closer, they interlaced them so one line was one story and the next line was the other story.

Two obvious stories where you can see one version followed by another version is the creation and the talking donkey. Adam and Eve in the Garden has a lot in common with Babylonian myths. Immortality is stolen by a snake. A woman of the rib is made for a man who ate forbidden food in the garden.

The first time I read the talking donkey story, I just sat there laughing. I had a hard time imagining people saying this story with a straight face. Basically, it has an invisible angel who is too lazy to reach out to kill a man. It also has a talking donkey that isn't anywhere as cute as the one on Shrek. But if you read it, you have one story where God visits the man and tells him that the Israelites are special. God tells him to go to the king that wants them killed. The next story opens with the guy getting ready to go to the king and this angers God. God sends an angel to kill this man. (This makes sense if there are two stories but makes no sense if it was one story.)

Quath

 

[paxigoth7]

Ok, Quath, you are almost there!

Sometime, if you get the chance, compare the Babylonian myth of creation with the Genesis myth. Also, any other ancient creation myths if you can.

Go ahead and note what is in common. Fine. They use similar story telling techniques. Great.

But what is different?

If you observe them, the difference is in the theology they teach.

Things to look for:
1. The character of God(s). In the Genesis story, God is good, and orderly, and produces a good creation out of chaos. In other stories, the gods are precarious and cause only mischeif. The Hebrews were making a claim that their God is a god of order and not chaos.
2. What is the nature of creation? In the Genesis story, creation is good, at least initially. In other myths, creation isn't so good.
3. Where does evil/sin/disease/etc. come from? Does it come from the gods or from humans? Is God responsible for evil, or are we?

If you examine them, you will find that the creation myths serve an apologetic task, reminding the Hebrews of the true God in the midst of false gods. There is a real difference, a real reason to believe the Genesis stories and not other stories (including the evolution myth).

Regarding science, I don't know. I wasn't there. And I don't think anyone else was either. I do not know, and I don't care to know. What happened is irrelevant. Yet, the meaning of life and how we understand our origins is vital. I agree with the theology of the Hebrews:

God is good. All that is came from God. All of creation, including humanity is initially good. Call this 'original blessing'. We don't know exactly what went wrong--but we know we did it. With the help of satan humanity conspired together against God. Because of this we inherit 'original sin'.

And that is sufficient for me.

 

[ThinkerMan]

Sure, we can talk about death here. But I want to make one comment. There is no reason to project death before the existence of sin regardless of your view on creation. Saying that animals lived for a million years before man would not enter death into the equation. Ya know that whole thing about people living to be 900 yrs or so? In Genesis, after sin had begun degrading reality but before it is like it is now?
Hmmm... maybe the original dinos were the original dinos. Maybe there were a group of dinos, that really date back a million years or so and they lived. And were happy types. Enter sin in the equation, a million years later, and they devolve (not evolve) into things like T rex's and eat each other.

I believe you are implying that there is an inverse relationship between the level of sin and the length of life. That is, that Adam and his buds lived very long because sin was just beginning to decay the world.

1. Why did the pre-flood people live so long? I mean, if they were so sinful as to deserve death by drowning, why did Methuselah make to the ripe old age of 969?

2. If the world continues to become increasingly sinful (the recipe for the return of Jesus) as most fundies here believe, then why is our life span increasing? We live longer than ever before, and as science (gasp) has improved, so have the length of our lives.

Japan, not exactly the hotbed of Yahweh, have the greatest longevity of any culture.

 

[mh13]

Sure, we can talk about death here. But I want to make one comment. There is no reason to project death before the existence of sin regardless of your view on creation. Saying that animals lived for a million years before man would not enter death into the equation. Ya know that whole thing about people living to be 900 yrs or so? In Genesis, after sin had begun degrading reality but before it is like it is now?
Hmmm... maybe the original dinos were the original dinos. Maybe there were a group of dinos, that really date back a million years or so and they lived. And were happy types. Enter sin in the equation, a million years later, and they devolve (not evolve) into things like T rex's and eat each other.

I believe you are implying that there is an inverse relationship between the level of sin and the length of life. That is, that Adam and his buds lived very long because sin was just beginning to decay the world.

1. Why did the pre-flood people live so long? I mean, if they were so sinful as to deserve death by drowning, why did Methuselah make to the ripe old age of 969?

2. If the world continues to become increasingly sinful (the recipe for the return of Jesus) as most fundies here believe, then why is our life span increasing? We live longer than ever before, and as science (gasp) has improved, so have the length of our lives.

Japan, not exactly the hotbed of Yahweh, have the greatest longevity of any culture.

Pre flood people lived so long because of the pre flood conditions
http://www.theyoungearth.com/ayoungearth/id3.html

 

[ThinkerMan]

I believe paxy's contention was that sin, not anything physical, creates the difference between the length of our lives...so I'd still like to see if that was his point.

Moving to your goal posts, those pre-flood conditions imply a different earth, different set of physics ("WHOLE EARTH WAS A UNIFORM TEMPERATURE"!!!!), different organic structure in plants and animals, etc. Interesting theory...perhaps worthy of another thread if you wanna discuss it.

 

[Wertbag]

Pre flood people lived so long because of the pre flood conditions
http://www.theyoungearth.com/ayoungearth/id3.html

Some of the answers given we know are not the root of massive age increase, for example a vegetarian diet, we can see they don't live longer than the rest of us carnivores. The same goes for vegans, atkins diets, fish only diet or chocolate cake diets. Healthy living extends life by a couple of years, but not hundreds.
The fittest, healthiest, cleanest living person on the planet today could hope to live 120 years at the best. Take away the sanitation, medicine, housing, hygene and you'd have alot closer to how the ancient people would have had to live, not a good way to extend your life span.

The idea of a vapour/water/ice canopy surrounding the earth is not biblically supported:
"and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven."
Taking the description of clouds and/or rain to mean a entire canopy encircling the earth is pushing a single sentance description to its limits. A more literal reading would be divided the sky from the water (atmosphere, clouds etc). Certainly when it comes to Noahs account it talks of rain and fountains from the deep but not of canopys of water decending.
Not to mention the physics of such a canopy make it impossible.

 

[Guest]

[quote="paxigoth God is good. All that is came from God. All of creation, including humanity is initially good. Call this 'original blessing'. We don't know exactly what went wrong--but we know we did it. With the help of satan humanity conspired together against God. Because of this we inherit 'original sin'.

And that is sufficient for me.[/quote]

:B-fly: This is Excellent!
You are telling the truth and I love it.
paxigoth,You Go',you Go and spread that Gospel,amen.
Great job you are doing in my opinion.
Glory always be to The God of Heaven and earth!

 

[Guest]

:D
Hydrology
Hydrologic Cycle Ecclesiastes 1:7; Isaiah 55:10
Evaporation Psalms 135:7; Jeremiah 10:13
Condensation Nuclei Proverbs 8:26
Condensation Job 26:8;37:11,-16
Precipitation Job 36:26-28
Run-off Job 28:10
Oceanic Reservoir Psalms 33:7
Snow Job 38:22 Psalms 147:16
Hydrologic Balance Job 28:24-26
Springs in the Sea Job 38:16

 

[Guest]

2. If the world continues to become increasingly sinful (the recipe for the return of Jesus) as most fundies here believe, then why is our life span increasing? We live longer than ever before, and as science (gasp) has improved, so have the length of our lives.

Japan, not exactly the hotbed of Yahweh, have the greatest longevity of any culture.

:D How long ago did life begin to increase?
I have a great,great Grandma who lived a few months away
from her 90th birthdate. She was born in 1851 and she died in
1941.
I have ancestors even farther back who lived a very long time,
so when did the increase in years begin?
Do you mean medical science?

Blood circulation Leviticus 17:11
Psychotherapy Proverbs 16:24;17;22
Biogenesis and Stability Genesis 1:11,21,25
Uniqueness of man Genesis 1:26
Chemical nature of Flesh Genesis 1:11,24-2:7
Cave men Job 12:23-25;30:3-8

I believe living longer has more to do with the gospel being
spread all over the world,and less to do with medicine,although
medicine can be very useful when you really need it.

 

[Guest]

Sure, we can talk about death here. But I want to make one comment. There is no reason to project death before the existence of sin regardless of your view on creation. Saying that animals lived for a million years before man would not enter death into the equation. Ya know that whole thing about people living to be 900 yrs or so? In Genesis, after sin had begun degrading reality but before it is like it is now?
Hmmm... maybe the original dinos were the original dinos. Maybe there were a group of dinos, that really date back a million years or so and they lived. And were happy types. Enter sin in the equation, a million years later, and they devolve (not evolve) into things like T rex's and eat each other.

Japan, not exactly the hotbed of Yahweh, have the greatest longevity of any culture.

:B-fly: I'm not sure where the west nile virus came from but aren't
places like Japan getting alot of curses coming down on them such as
sicknesses and disease at an almost rapid pace?
Who was the oldest Japanese person to ever live,and what is the
longest they can expect to live?
I heard all kinds of things about this about many other races too,so
who can believe what the world says very often?
I heard the French lived longer,but I guess thats not true?
If you want to have a chance to live a long life,obey your parents no
matter if you are saved or not,but it is best to be saved in my opinion.
Obey your parents and you stand a chance.
Japan has never been free like the USA,right?

 

[cubedbee]

:B-fly: I'm not sure where the west nile virus came from but aren't
places like Japan getting alot of curses coming down on them such as
sicknesses and disease at an almost rapid pace?

No, they're not.

[Who was the oldest Japanese person to ever live,and what is the
longest they can expect to live?

Life expectancy rose rapidly in the 20th century due to improvements in public health, nutrition and medicine. Its likely that life expectancy of the most developed countries will slowly advance and then reach a peak in the range of the mid-80s in age. Currently, microstates Andorra and San Marino along with Japan have the world's highest life expectancies (83.5, 81.1 and 80.7, respectively).

http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa042000a.htm

So an average Japanese person can expect to live over 80. The oldest Japanese man ever was 120. There are over 20,000 Japanese who are over 100.

I heard all kinds of things about this about many other races too,so
who can believe what the world says very often?
I heard the French lived longer,but I guess thats not true?

The oldest woman ever was French. But no, the Japanese live longer than the French. It only takes a little research. You shoudl try it, instead of just calling other people's facts lies.

Oh, and here's some proof that people live longer now than in the Bible. David wrote in Psalms 90,

The length of our days is seventy years-
or eighty, if we have the strength;
yet their span is but trouble and sorrow,
for they quickly pass, and we fly away.

So back then they normally lived to 70 and the strong lived to 80. Today, the normal person in Japan lives to 80 and the strong lives well over 100.

 

[ThinkerMan]

Blue:

Anecdotal evidence means nothing. Please understand that.

My great-grandmother lived to be 101, she was born in 1871. Does that mean everyone born in 1871 lived to 101. Absolutely not.

We must discuss samples of people.

The average person today lives much longer than before. The average Japanese person is much longer-lived than in other countries.

Medical science, better shelter, more abundant food supplies have all contributed to this.

There is also no evidence of a relationship between longevity and religious views.

I believe living longer has more to do with the gospel being
spread all over the world,and less to do with medicine,although
medicine can be very useful when you really need it.

Then back to my point. Why do the Japanese live longer than the average American Fundamentalists?

Italians (those pesky Catholics) live an average of two years longer than the average American.

Heres a good chart to illustrate....

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... type=chart

 

[Asimov]

blue, they're talking about average lifespans. Not the lifespan of one person. In a population of 30, if one person lives to be 800 years old, and the other 29 people live to be only 16, the average lifespan is only 42, which is not a lot.

Or, for a different example. If, in a population of 30, 1 person lives to be around Adam's supposed age ~1200, and the rest live to be even 60. The average lifespan is 98 years old. Which is pretty good, but nothing miraculous.

The problem with the idea that EVERYONE lived to be hundreds of years old back then, is that it doesn't mention EVERYONE on the planet in the bible.

 

[paxigoth7]

Yes, 'sin' and 'life' are related.

Remember, 'sin' is a broad category and doesn't just mean 'things people do wrong'. The word 'sin' really means to miss the mark, for something to not be what it should be. This does not always imply personal responsibility. This is what some Christians call "communal sin" that is, sin that the community shares as a burden, though no one in that community caused it. For example, someone is born crippled. The cripple did nothing to cause themselves to be crippled and to imply as such would be evil. Yet, that crippledness is a form of sin.

Keeping this understanding of 'sin' in mind...
All that ever was and is was initially without sin. It had no imperfections. 'Sin' may have entered through humanity's fall--but this 'sin' had consequences that affected all of creation, all of earth. The wages of sin is death... And we see this death in more ways than just human death. Animals, earth, etc. etc. This is devolution. All of the way up until the gospel is revealed. The Hebrew community was a community of God's chosen during the intermediate time between the fall and redemption. I see it as like a temporary stop gap. Had this not taken place, humanity would have destroyed itself and the earth a long time ago.

The gospel of Jesus is redemption, for humans and creation. God didn't just send Jesus because God loved humanity--God loved the 'world' that is, all of creation. Jesus spoke of a parable using the wheat and the tares.

The good and the bad coexist for a time, growing together. Sometimes people say that the world is just getting worse, Christians are being persecuted, things are more evil and depraved, etc. Sometimes people say things are getting better, people are more willing to give peace a chance, etc. I think we need to remember the wheat and the tares. Yes, sin has continued its course of devolution and will continue to do so. On the other hand, Jesus came to give life and life more abundantly. We see this happening as well.

 

[Guest]

:B-fly: So back then they normally lived to 70 and the strong lived to 80. Today, the normal person in Japan lives to 80 and the strong lives well over 100.

:B-fly: I thought the bible said he will put up with man for a hundred and
twenty years?
Everyone in the world seems to believe in their own so called facts,huh?
Human error,right?
Not everyone's facts are right,but unfortunately getting at the truth is
priceless. Whose facts are we going to believe?

 

[Guest]

Blue:

Anecdotal evidence means nothing. Please understand that.

My great-grandmother lived to be 101, she was born in 1871. Does that mean everyone born in 1871 lived to 101. Absolutely not.

We must discuss samples of people.

:B-fly: Our good christian brother Thomas's grandma who was a very
good christian woman all her life lived to be 111. This is true,and we met
her a few times. She died at home instead of in a nursing home,and was
still cooking in her 90's.
Obeying your parents does help too.

 

[ThinkerMan]

Thank you blue, for completely ignoring my request not to make arguments via anecdotes.