The Origin of Satan and his demons

[Fastfredy0]

If the fallen Angels are in chains of darkness, how could they be running around doing all the stuff demons are doing.

Not a lot to go on from scripture. I was told that not all fallen angels are in hell. It's obvious that the Chief fallen angel Satan isn't in hell, least wise not all the time.

 

[LeviR]

I have a question or puzzle about demons. I have always believed and was told that demons are the fallen Angels.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

Strongs says the word "reserved" G5083 = tēreō means by implication to detain (in custody)

It's the same word Peter uses in 1 Peter 1:4 where he tells us our inheritance is reserved in heaven for us."

If the fallen Angels are in chains of darkness, how could they be running around doing all the stuff demons are doing.
Maybe demons are something else and we are not told about their origin.

Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

There are a lot more spiritual beings that God has made that we are not made aware of.

No connection is made between angels and demons in scripture. And the text suggests that ALL the angels, or messengers who sinned were drowned in the flood. Noah and his family were the only survivors.

From that idea is formed what I believe about what demons are.

Those who hold that they are fallen angels of God would have to assume they weren’t all put in chains of darkness in the great abyss of water to await judgment day.

 

[Whatever]

And the text suggests that ALL the angels, or messengers who sinned were drowned in the flood.

I don't think Angels can drown or even die.

Noah and his family were the only survivors.

I have a question.
ESV
Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days . . .
Num 13:33 And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim)

The flood happened between these 2 passages. Most other translations translate it as "giants," but the Hebrew is nef-eel'
Strongs says of the word = properly, a feller, that is, a bully or tyrant: - giant.

I found this online that gives some theories.

Who Are the Nephilim in the Bible? Four Theories

We know from Genesis 6:4 that Nephilim were the offspring of “the sons of God” and the “daughters of men” - many believe them to be "fallen angels". Is there a correct answer to who exactly were the Nephilim in the Bible?

www.christianity.com

 

[LeviR]

I don't think Angels can drown or even die.

I have a question.
ESV
Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days . . .
Num 13:33 And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim)

The flood happened between these 2 passages. Most other translations translate it as "giants," but the Hebrew is nef-eel'
Strongs says of the word = properly, a feller, that is, a bully or tyrant: - giant.

I found this online that gives some theories.

Who Are the Nephilim in the Bible? Four Theories

We know from Genesis 6:4 that Nephilim were the offspring of “the sons of God” and the “daughters of men” - many believe them to be "fallen angels". Is there a correct answer to who exactly were the Nephilim in the Bible?

www.christianity.com

I don’t believe God’s angels drown or die either. And neither does Jesus.

I believe the sons of God in Gen 6 refers to the sons of Seth. This comes from the reading of chapters 4 &5
In Chapter 4 vs 26 take a look at the KJV margin note .

It says “men began to call themselves by the name of the Lord” i.e “sons of God”

 

[Whatever]

Anybody wanna guess who these guys are?
Revelation 9:1-11
New International Version
The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8 Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10 They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).

 

[Whatever]

In Chapter 4 vs 26 take a look at the KJV margin note .

It says “men began to call themselves by the name of the Lord” I.e “sons of God”

Here is Genesils 4:26 in a bunch of different translations. I tried pasting them and it choked, so here is the link.

Genesis 4:26 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

 

[LeviR]

Anybody wanna guess who these guys are?
Revelation 9:1-11
New International Version
The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8 Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10 They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).

I always try to associate those symbols with men because I don’t read it as a sci-fi movie.
The text says that the power the scorpions have is also given to the locust.
So, the idea is that men who are in power over people as scorpions who bite and sting with death, that same power is given to other men to do the same things.

To broaden it out, it seems to refer to one nation having power over their people, and that same power is given also to another nation to have power over the same people.

We read elsewhere in Revelation where one power is given to another. I believe it’s speaking of the same thing.

See Eze 2 for the interpretation of the scorpion kings who have power over their people.

See Joel 1 & 2 for the interpretation of the locust nation given power over the same people.

 

[LeviR]

Here is Genesils 4:26 in a bunch of different translations. I tried pasting them and it choked, so here is the link.

Genesis 4:26 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

Yeah, so the idea is that it is those people who are the sons of God in GEN 6

 

[Whatever]

I always try to associate those symbols with men because I don’t read it as a sci-fi movie.

I believe a lot of Dispensationalist writers do.
Hal Lindsey, back in 1973, was the first to conjecture that the locusts described in this chapter may in fact be Apache helicopters, claiming the various details of the locusts corresponded to the different parts of the helicopter.

I have a Christian friend who was a Green Beret in Viet Nam. When he first read this chapter he said, “I know what those are. I’ve seen hundreds of them in Viet Nam. They’re Cobra helicopters! That may be conjecture, but it does give you something to think about! A Cobra helicopter does fit the sound of “many chariots.” My friend believes that the means of torment will be a kind of nerve gas sprayed from its tail. (Hal Lindsey, There’s a New World Coming: A Prophetic Odyssey (Santa Ana, CA: Vision House Publishers, 1973), 138–139.)

 

[LeviR]

I believe a lot of Dispensationalist writers do.
Hal Lindsey, back in 1973, was the first to conjecture that the locusts described in this chapter may in fact be Apache helicopters, claiming the various details of the locusts corresponded to the different parts of the helicopter.

I have a Christian friend who was a Green Beret in Viet Nam. When he first read this chapter he said, “I know what those are. I’ve seen hundreds of them in Viet Nam. They’re Cobra helicopters! That may be conjecture, but it does give you something to think about! A Cobra helicopter does fit the sound of “many chariots.” My friend believes that the means of torment will be a kind of nerve gas sprayed from its tail. (Hal Lindsey, There’s a New World Coming: A Prophetic Odyssey (Santa Ana, CA: Vision House Publishers, 1973), 138–139.)

They are described as horses because helicopters weren’t invented yet. But helicopters are definitely a possibility. Any instrument of war could be there.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

If a picture puzzle appears properly assembled, no pieces forced to fit, it was properly assembled and unfounded denials it was assembled properly, unproved opinion.

Greetings Alfred. It's been a while since I checked on this forum and I am reading through the whole thread. Your posts are always thought provoking and I thank you for that.

However, as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

Until God's kingdom is established on earth, our true understanding of the mysteries and riddles of the bible remains partial even though deductive logic is a formidable force in partially building up the pieces of the puzzle.

One plants, the other waters, a third trims and so on. Yet, all we do here on this space and time dimension is but a mere projection of a hidden system that refuses to be fully discovered until the end.

Let me provide an analogy with filtering problems in mathematics. There is a hidden state that evolves through time and one observes with imperfection its impact on the state space dimension. In the process, one can with certainty describe the probability distribution of the hidden state. This kind of filtering mechanism in its applications powers a lot of modern inventions by the way.

My point is as humans deductive logic can be used to precisely describe with certainty the uncertainty about issues at hand. It is being respectful to one's spiritual intelligence to know the extent to which you don't know. It's still way better than not knowing the extent to what one ought to know though.

Peace and Blessings!

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings Alfred. It's been a while since I checked on this forum and I am reading through the whole thread. Your posts are always thought provoking and I thank you for that.

However, as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

Until God's kingdom is established on earth, our true understanding of the mysteries and riddles of the bible remains partial even though deductive logic is a formidable force in partially building up the pieces of the puzzle.

One plants, the other waters, a third trims and so on. Yet, all we do here on this space and time dimension is but a mere projection of a hidden system that refuses to be fully discovered until the end.

Let me provide an analogy with filtering problems in mathematics. There is a hidden state that evolves through time and one observes with imperfection its impact on the state space dimension. In the process, one can with certainty describe the probability distribution of the hidden state. This kind of filtering mechanism in its applications powers a lot of modern inventions by the way.

My point is as humans deductive logic can be used to precisely describe with certainty the uncertainty about issues at hand. It is being respectful to one's spiritual intelligence to know the extent to which you don't know. It's still way better than not knowing the extent to what one ought to know though.

Peace and Blessings!

Thank's for compliment. I agree logic never gives us 100% certainty about complex issues.

My faith in Christ, while supported by logic, is God given, a gift. I am certain Jesus is God the Son, The Father's Only Begotten, risen from the dead physically, and will return visibly like lightning. There is no doubt about these truths.

Last time I checked, its all I really need to know to be saved. And God gave me that knowledge, that faith.

We are not left hopeless, to our own devices:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:8-10 NKJ)

Peace and Blessings to you, too!

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

God made a mistake? I've never heard that before. Hmmm, that would 'blow up' the idea that God is all knowing.
... wonder what other mistakes God made .... or is the "God made a mistake" a misstatement ...

No, read his statement in the context of everything he said. He says that Satan tried to prove that God made a mistake.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Satan looked deep within himself and saw iniquity, he had selfish motives for serving God. Likely "Confirmation Bias" convinced him the same was true for everyone. Therefore, God made a terrible mistake believing sentient life would share life with Him in mutual “true love”. As God made a mistake, His own criteria disqualified from being God (Is. 41:21-24). Satan then “trafficked (Ez. 28:5) his argument angel to angel, eventually convincing a third of likeminded angels to join his rebellion (Rev. 12:4).

No, read his statement in the context of everything he said. He says that Satan tried to prove that God made a mistake.

Seems plain to me the Alfred said God made a mistake. Quote: "God made a terrible mistake believing sentient life would share life with Him in mutual 'true love'.
Satan is a very smart guy, I can't imagine he would think God can make mistakes.
I don't see that I made an error and that the context explains things but wouldn't be the first time I was incorrect.