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  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

The Perverted Gospel!

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Your quote: “Evangelistic salvation is free-to-us entry into the messianic community, making folk siblings of Christ”
So how do we enter or obtain initiation?

There is no general initiation as such. As to entry, many keys turn that lock. One is Jhn.1:12, though it’s phrased for folk before the cross. In short, some welcomed Jesus as God-sent, even to the point of messiahship: eg “Yet many in the crowd believed in him, and they said, ‘When the Christ comes, will he perform more signs than this man has accomplished?’” (NAB: Jhn.7:31). John said of pre-crucifixion believers, welcomers, that they had a right to become children of God once the cross made family entry possible. Nowadays of course we become such immediately we welcome-believe messiah.

Of course such folk already were children of God both at the common level and also at the Sinai level. John thus implied a new level or type of filiality, and also likened it to being born anew, spiritually from the spirit above (Jhn.3): ‘born again’ only fits the lips of Nicodemus. Indeed since Nicodemus was already in God’s kingdom of Sinai, Jhn.3:5 implied a new kingdom level or type, the messianic.

In short, entrance is a private matter between human beings and God, based on basic recognition and welcome of his son as his messianic son—believing in his οναμα, his ID. The Day of Pentecost hardly explicated the doctrine of the trinity as per Nicea and Chalcedon, but it did cover basic recognition in the κηρυμα.

I think we’d agree that Entrance is the beginning, not the end. For filiality puts us into the family of believers, within which we are to share koinonia and witness. Family recognition isn’t always straight forward (Paul needed an intro), so some formal tests, eg catechisms, can be wise and corrective (Gal.2:2,9). Family life and maturation is desirable and obligatory, and can include some basics such as water-baptism and the eucharist, both sacraments—pledge-points—based on the fact that such salvation was not free-to-Jesus, but an act of love for love.
 
The tradition you describe by fundamentalists isn't fundamental.
Ergo, you have mislabeled fundamentalists.
It’s certainly not Christian tradition!

Do you believe in perpetual justification or eternal security?
 
I
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9
In this life or the next?

Do you believe in perpetual justification or eternal security?
 
G
There is no general initiation as such. As to entry, many keys turn that lock. One is Jhn.1:12, though it’s phrased for folk before the cross. In short, some welcomed Jesus as God-sent, even to the point of messiahship: eg “Yet many in the crowd believed in him, and they said, ‘When the Christ comes, will he perform more signs than this man has accomplished?’” (NAB: Jhn.7:31). John said of pre-crucifixion believers, welcomers, that they had a right to become children of God once the cross made family entry possible. Nowadays of course we become such immediately we welcome-believe messiah.

Of course such folk already were children of God both at the common level and also at the Sinai level. John thus implied a new level or type of filiality, and also likened it to being born anew, spiritually from the spirit above (Jhn.3): ‘born again’ only fits the lips of Nicodemus. Indeed since Nicodemus was already in God’s kingdom of Sinai, Jhn.3:5 implied a new kingdom level or type, the messianic.

In short, entrance is a private matter between human beings and God, based on basic recognition and welcome of his son as his messianic son—believing in his οναμα, his ID. The Day of Pentecost hardly explicated the doctrine of the trinity as per Nicea and Chalcedon, but it did cover basic recognition in the κηρυμα.

I think we’d agree that Entrance is the beginning, not the end. For filiality puts us into the family of believers, within which we are to share koinonia and witness. Family recognition isn’t always straight forward (Paul needed an intro), so some formal tests, eg catechisms, can be wise and corrective (Gal.2:2,9). Family life and maturation is desirable and obligatory, and can include some basics such as water-baptism and the eucharist, both sacraments—pledge-points—based on the fact that such salvation was not free-to-Jesus, but an act of love for love.
Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Acts 16:17
The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which show unto us the way of salvation.

2 Corinthians 8:19
And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

More}
 
The Christian sacrament* of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation!

*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Initiation!!!


Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)

No baptism no grace!
No union with God and His saints thru Christ the mediator!

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone! Jn 3:5

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!


Christ instituted the holy church to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation. (repent and believe the gospel) with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!
Matt 28:19






Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 eph 4:30 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!
 
The Christian sacrament* of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation!

*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Initiation!!!


Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)

No baptism no grace!
No union with God and His saints thru Christ the mediator!

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone! Jn 3:5

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!


Christ instituted the holy church to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation. (repent and believe the gospel) with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!
Matt 28:19






Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 eph 4:30 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

You have thrown a lot into the pot. Any indepth response to each and every line is prohibitive. As in I Robot, “I'm sorry, my responses are limited”.

Going into Jhn.3, Andreas Köstenberger noted that Nicodemus having misunderstood Jesus to literally mean ‘born again’ instead of spiritually ‘from above’, Jesus proceeded to further explain γεννηθη ανωθεν as being born of water and spirit, which in turn neither referred to water and spirit baptisms, nor compared physical to spiritual birth. “The phrase probably denotes one spiritual birth…[developing Jhn.3:3] by the use of one preposition (εξ) to govern both phrases in 3:5, and by antecedent OT (prophetic) theology. The closest parallel is Ezk.36:25-7, which presaged God’s cleansing of human hearts with water and their inner transformation by his spirit” (see John (BECNT), 2004:123-4).

2 Pt.1:11 simply advised Christians to sincerely walk the walk and so to be well welcomed into the eternal kingdom.

Ac.16:17 was about what I call Level 3 salvation, viz Christianity.

I disallow the concept, baptismal regeneration: like the COVID19 ‘vaccine’, it can give a false sense of security, can be worse than the virus, yet can often do no harm and perhaps do some psychological good. I allow the concept, conversional regeneration: we are regenerated (perhaps better neogenerated—a new generation/life), at conversion, ie spiritually changed by the spirit when we welcome messiah as messiah. As said, water-baptism and spirit-baptism are good to follow. The sequence in which they follow—if they follow—is incidental (Ac.8:2,15; 10:45-7). Incidentally the new covenant was by the cross. We do not make individual covenants with God, but individually enter in to the preexisting covenant.

As to where you are getting the term, fundamentalist (it has several meanings), I do not know, but I fear that you are using it as a pejorative term. You and I could both list doctrines we deem to be fundamental—are we therefore both fundamentalists, or is only the one in the wrong the fundamentalist? Both the pope and Calvin called each other Antichrist.

I do not hold entrance-grace to mediated by clergy, but to be immediate by the spirit. That God's offer of grace is mediated is often the case (eg Rm.10:14). That Christian teachers teach by grace, or that Christian pastors pastor by grace, I do not doubt. The body serves itself in grace by grace to grace.

On Tts.3:5, “this is an alternative expression of the same metaphor of ‘washing’ [λουτρον—not βαπτισμα] we find in Eph.5:26 and 1 Cor.6:11. Although many commentators take this to refer to water baptism which follows conversion, it is easier here as elsewhere to see a simple reference to a cleansing and life-giving transformation wrought by God. That baptism remains a powerful symbol of this saving act is clear, and it is entirely likely that a reminder of this experience is intended. In Eph.5:26, this ‘washing’ is specifically accomplished by the ‘word’, and there is no doubt that powerful preaching played a role in bringing hearers into this experience. However, that point is omitted here, leaving an emphasis on God’s initiative and the work of the spirit” (W Kay & J Moxon’s A Pentecostal Commentary on the Pastoral Epistles (POTNTC), 2022:237-8).

Like you I like the idea of sacramentum as an oath, a pledge: Pliny the Younger spoke of Christians binding themselves so. Like you I do not like the 5 Solas, which the Reformers didn’t formulate. For they can sound as if they each stand alone, rather than only together as a package deal (as all being needed), and some do disservice to trinitarianism, eg, saying Christ alone, discounts the father and the spirit as saviour. I replace them with the five necessaria: Scripture is necessary: Scriptura necessaria est; grace is necessary: gratia necessaria est; faith is necessary: fides necessaria est; the cross is necessary: crux necessaria est; giving glory to the trinity is necessary: trinitatem glorificare necessarium est.
 
Scripture says administered by the apostles or apostolic church

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Acts 16:17
The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which show unto us the way of salvation.

2 Corinthians 8:19
And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

Not faith and water baptism?

Jn 3:22-23
22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

Thks
 
donadams wow you really know your passages well. How have you remembered them all?

I think we ultimately have to remember we are all his servants and help show the way to salvation.

Lisa
 
I

In this life or the next?

Do you believe in perpetual justification or eternal security?


I believe the scriptures; the doctrine of Christ.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ -

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



JLB
 
donadams wow you really know your passages well. How have you remembered them all?

I think we ultimately have to remember we are all his servants and help show the way to salvation.

Lisa
Hi Lisa, thanks

I don’t know how most likely a gift of the spirit.

I also have extensive notes and use biblegateway to search.

What do you think of this verse?

Acts 16:17
 
Do y
Agreed.

No.
Unless you are referring to the salvation we are granted after the day of judgement.
ou believe we must abide in Christ, Jn 15:4 and endure to the end, Matt 24:13 and be found faithful? Rev 17:14

Thanks
 
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Reactions: JLB
Hi Lisa, thanks

I don’t know how most likely a gift of the spirit.

I also have extensive notes and use biblegateway to search.

What do you think of this verse?

Acts 16:17
She followed Paul and us crying out "These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation"
 
So
I believe the scriptures; the doctrine of Christ.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ -

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



JLB
you reject perpetual justification or eternal security, saved now and can’t be lost! Thks
 
She followed Paul and us crying out "These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation"
So it’s the apostles who show us the way to salvation?
 

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