The place of truth

[Jim Parker]

What is the best source of truth?

First, “facts” and “truth” are similar but not the exact same thing.
Scientists seek facts.
Believers seek truth.

- Scientific research, medical research, mechanical research, or studies in general
These are the best source of facts pertaining to the specific areas of research mentioned. (Except “studies in general” because that description does not, infarct, describe anything specific.

So, if you want to find out about quantum physics, you study quantum physics and do research in that area. Ditto for medical and mechanical. If you want to find the truth about medicine then you go to medical sources. You do not go to the Bible to learn about quantum physics or the latest surgical techniques.

- The Bible
The Bible is the best source of truth about God and our relationship with Him.

That being said, it requires a certain level of intelligence (reading and reading comprehension skills) to get the truth from the Bible. A low level of literacy and comprehension will make it very difficult to understand what is written.

If one is listening to the Bible being read, a good command of the language in which it is being read is necessary. If the listener only has a 500 word vocabulary, then much of what he hears will not be understood or will be misunderstood.

It also requires a mind uncontaminated by false teaching (Mormon, JW, Islam, Christian Science, etc.) or by preconceptions.

Further, it requires some level of preparation including prayer for understanding and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

- The Holy Spirit, or direct contact with God
Both of these are hypothetical. They assume that the person seeking truth has properly prepared himself, through prayer and fasting, etc., to clearly hear from the Holy Spirit.

There are many people who have claimed to hear from the Holy Spirit who, in fact, clearly have a very difficult time distinguishing between the Holy Spirit and the noise in their head.

And no one gets “direct contact” with God the Father except the Son and the Holy Spirit. So you’d need to clarify what you mean there and I would be very suspicious of the sanity and/or reliability of someone who says they have “direct contact with God.”

- A trusted religious teacher
Our trust establishes nothing. People trust charlatans, frauds and politicians on a regular basis.

A proven trustworthy teacher, as attested by many reliable witnesses, would be a good source of truth about scripture and God. Those are not as common as we might wish and I doubt that any of them would claim to be infallible.

So, bottom line; we won't ever have perfect understanding this side of glory.

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.
Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully,
even as I have been fully understood. (1 cor 13:13)

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

It's always that way. As St. Augustine wrote, we can make mistakes about scripture, and when we find that our beliefs do not correspond to reality, we should be willing to revise them.

This is going to sound nitpicky over our words, but please hear me out. It's already been discussed about the difference between our understanding of scriptures and the scriptures themselves. There are many pitfalls in our theology and philosophy of scriptures, that include only searchong for verses that agree with our own position, and ignoring othets, or comming into a verse with a bias instead of reading it as it says it. There are pitfalls but that's with our understanding. Not with the scripture itself. If Augestine is suggesting that we make mistakes wiyh scripture, as in we wrote it and it was wrong, (I know someone who argued this concerning one of the controversial topics of today), if that is Augestine's point then I stronhly disagree. If his point is still that scripture is right but our understanding needs to be humble and accept correction, then ok I can accept that to a degree. The exception is still to hold to the truth of the bible even when life experience stongly says it's wrong. The faith of Danial, and his three friends while exiled in Babalon comes to mind fot standing strong in our faith.

Using scripture to revise science would be trying to add something God never intended for it. It's meant to be about God and man and our relationship. It's not an idol to be worshiped.

What you've said earlier, that the bible is not a science book. That is true. And on that note the bible is not trying to rewrite science. However on the times the bible says something happened, then count those words with the strongest kind of strength and sturdiness. If they disagree with science, then scientific thought so far has it wrong. Even if it's not explained how it happened, or why it happened. Believe it as an extention of trusting God and believing in God.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

First off the Holy Spirit is the very Spirit of God as Gods Spirit (Holy Spirit) dwells in us when we first received Jesus as our Lord and Savior even though we do not realize it at first. It's like us having a personal relationship with Jesus we also have that personal relationship with the Holy Spirit who will speak to us in various ways, but mainly through the word of God as it's all Gods Spirit.

The Holy Spirit will teach you things the carnal mind cannot perceive. Jesus explains the purpose of the Holy Spirit and the relationship of the believers to Christ and what relationship the believers have to the world in John chapters 14 and 15. The way I study is that I pray first and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to me what I need to learn. Then I read a verse at a time until I understand what that verse is saying. Sometimes I am on the same verse or even one word for a while until the Holy Spirit reveals truth of what I am reading. Then I move on to the next verse until I have read the whole chapter then this allows me the knowledge and understanding God wants me to learn. I use to read a chapter at a time and get the jest of it, but now realized how much knowledge it actually contained in all truth. I also compare scripture with scripture, OT with NT mixed with history of that era. When I hear others trying to teach me I test the spirits that are speaking so I know I am receiving truth or error, 1John 4:1-6. The spirit of Jezebel loves to speak falsehoods from the altar and runs rampant in many churches, Rev 2:18-29. I hear the voice of the Holy Spirit in my mind teaching me and it's hard to explain that to others as all I can tell them is when the Holy Spirit speaks you just know that it is Gods Spirit.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Find a quiet place where you can be alone for awhile to pray and ask God to fill you with His Holy Spirit and then you will know and feel His Spirit that will lead you to all truths.

Concerning the Holy Spirit, all I can do is hope. But until then, if God allows it, all I can do is read and pray.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

What is the best source of truth?

First, “facts” and “truth” are similar but not the exact same thing.
Scientists seek facts.
Believers seek truth.

- Scientific research, medical research, mechanical research, or studies in general
These are the best source of facts pertaining to the specific areas of research mentioned. (Except “studies in general” because that description does not, infarct, describe anything specific.

So, if you want to find out about quantum physics, you study quantum physics and do research in that area. Ditto for medical and mechanical. If you want to find the truth about medicine then you go to medical sources. You do not go to the Bible to learn about quantum physics or the latest surgical techniques.

- The Bible
The Bible is the best source of truth about God and our relationship with Him.

That being said, it requires a certain level of intelligence (reading and reading comprehension skills) to get the truth from the Bible. A low level of literacy and comprehension will make it very difficult to understand what is written.

If one is listening to the Bible being read, a good command of the language in which it is being read is necessary. If the listener only has a 500 word vocabulary, then much of what he hears will not be understood or will be misunderstood.

It also requires a mind uncontaminated by false teaching (Mormon, JW, Islam, Christian Science, etc.) or by preconceptions.

Further, it requires some level of preparation including prayer for understanding and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

- The Holy Spirit, or direct contact with God
Both of these are hypothetical. They assume that the person seeking truth has properly prepared himself, through prayer and fasting, etc., to clearly hear from the Holy Spirit.

There are many people who have claimed to hear from the Holy Spirit who, in fact, clearly have a very difficult time distinguishing between the Holy Spirit and the noise in their head.

And no one gets “direct contact” with God the Father except the Son and the Holy Spirit. So you’d need to clarify what you mean there and I would be very suspicious of the sanity and/or reliability of someone who says they have “direct contact with God.”

- A trusted religious teacher
Our trust establishes nothing. People trust charlatans, frauds and politicians on a regular basis.

A proven trustworthy teacher, as attested by many reliable witnesses, would be a good source of truth about scripture and God. Those are not as common as we might wish and I doubt that any of them would claim to be infallible.

So, bottom line; we won't ever have perfect understanding this side of glory.

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.
Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully,
even as I have been fully understood. (1 cor 13:13)

I'm sorry if these catogeries are not the best discriptions. These are the catogeries as I see them though for when people engage in discussions regarding what's true. As well as in discussion regarding our faith and what we hold as a good resource of the truth.

 

[Jim Parker]

I'm sorry if these catogeries are not the best discriptions. These are the catogeries as I see them though for when people engage in discussions regarding what's true. As well as in discussion regarding our faith and what we hold as a good resource of the truth.

I'm just pointing out that the conflating and confusion of words can lead to false conclusions. Faith based on those false conclusions is wasted faith and a source of confusion.

 

[for_his_glory]

Concerning the Holy Spirit, all I can do is hope. But until then, if God allows it, all I can do is read and pray.

If you are Spiritually born again as taught in John Chapter 3 then you do have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and need to learn what that means. There are a lot of good books on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit plus it helps to talk to someone who knows they are empowered with Gods Spirit. It took me a long time before I really understood it back in the day. God bless you as you seek.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I'm just pointing out that the conflating and confusion of words can lead to false conclusions. Faith based on those false conclusions is wasted faith and a source of confusion.

I understand. However, I see bickering in several topics in the forums. One main factor I see repeated is that arguments are based from one source to be an authoritive point, while the oposing argumemts use another source to back up their points.

My hope was to address that aspect and talk about what should be counted as the ultimate authority to determining if somethig is true or not.
_________________
Tou've probabley read my stance in the topic that when the bible speaks on a matter it is a higher authority then our logic and understanding; above our collective experiences and observations. Even above our trusted authorities like a trusted pastor or a well thought out theologian, as well as above our scientific community's base of knowledge.

The only authority above the bible is God Himself. Even then to determine if it's God or a lying false spirit, the bible is the foundation to know.

Hope that makes more sence.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

If you are Spiritually born again as taught in John Chapter 3 then you do have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and need to learn what that means. There are a lot of good books on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit plus it helps to talk to someone who knows they are empowered with Gods Spirit. It took me a long time before I really understood it back in the day. God bless you as you seek.

There are too many theories and theology that try to answer the question of if you have the Spirit, and how you know. Or how you get the Holy Spirit.

The many issues fall around that big IF. As some put it if you don't know you have the Spirit then you don't have Him in you. Others place being born of the Spirit and being filled with the,spirit in the same light. Thus if you've never been babitized by the Holy Spirit, and spoken in tongues once (or other mariculous events occured) then your not trurly saved. There are a few others out there too, some more hopeful then others and some with a bit of a bite to them even with the hope offered.
I've given up on trying to understand if I'm saved, and instead hope that I am and lean on my hope in God.
________________
Either way as for this conversation. Knowing something from the Holy Spirit isn't something I've experenced (at least not that I know of). So for me my greatest source of discernment for what is true is from the bible.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Not_Now.Soon . I like your stuff. Well thought and clear. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. :nod

 

[Jim Parker]

Tou've probabley read my stance in the topic that when the bible speaks on a matter it is a higher authority then our logic and understanding; above our collective experiences and observations. Even above our trusted authorities like a trusted pastor or a well thought out theologian, as well as above our scientific community's base of knowledge.

The only authority above the bible is God Himself. Even then to determine if it's God or a lying false spirit, the bible is the foundation to know.

Hope that makes more sence.

It does make sense.
But it begs the question.
How do we extract that perfect truth other than by our own logic and understanding, our collective experiences and observations. our trusted authorities, pastors, and theologians?

There is actually a reliable, Biblical way found at 2Ti 2:2
And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
That has come to be called the "Apostolic succession."
(The truth taught by the apostle Paul to Timothy then to faithful men and then on to others.)
And, of course, it is rejected by much of Christianity because it seems to be too Roman.

 

[Jim Parker]

If you are Spiritually born again as taught in John Chapter 3 then you do have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and need to learn what that means.

Many people claim that the Holy Spirit has taught or shown them what it clearly nonsense.
Ellen G. White is an excellent example.

 

[Edward]

I agree. The only thing more reliable is to know something from God Himself. The issue with that though is knowing it's from God or not, so even then I hold the bible as an authority, to correct and test what we think we have by God.

Agreed. The bible is the authority, and it takes the Holy Spirit to give us revelation and understanding. Revelation from God can be tricky. God can give us revelation about something in scripture so that we understand it, or He can give us revelation about something that is not in scripture. But the key to it either way is comparing it to all other scriptures. Deception is their primary weapon against us so everything has to be confirmed and backed up by scripture. I've been shown that even revelations about things not found in scripture, can be confirmed and backed up by scripture. It doesn't sound like it makes sense but it can be. Parables and metaphors can sometimes shine light on revelations and life application topics without them being directly about the topic.

Getting revelations from the Holy Spirit is not talked about much, nor would it be well accepted due to the if it's not in scripture then it's not true folks...

I heard something new to me the other day. About testing spirits. It was said that the enemy can even disguise themselves as angels of light so an evil spirit could actually manifest in front of you as Jesus Himself. The point made was that asking this spirit if Jesus came in the flesh, may not be enough to ensure that it is really Jesus. That in the case of a Jesus manifestation, along with the test question, one should also ask to see the nail prints, because they are not able to fake that. Makes sense.

 

[Edward]

Many people claim that the Holy Spirit has taught or shown them what it clearly nonsense.
Ellen G. White is an excellent example.

I dunno what Ellen White wrote about but you do make a good point. I've seen it happen and two guys were arguing about something, well the Holy Spirit told me this...oh yeah, well the Holy Spirit told me that. In direct contradiction of each other. One (at least) was wrong or lying.

Yet they were both sincere. Perhaps this happens by a mis-identification? It isn't an audible voice from the Holy Spirit, so perhaps they "get a feeling" about something, and feel as if they were just spoken to by the Holy Spirit...but they weren't?

I always pray for confirmation about things like this. In the mouth of two or three witnesses the truth is established. Plus, the Lord can always back Himself up with scripture. Always.

 

[Papa Zoom]

(The truth taught by the apostle Paul to Timothy then to faithful men and then on to others.)
And, of course, it is rejected by much of Christianity because it seems to be too Roman.

A few examples please.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

It does make sense.
But it begs the question.
How do we extract that perfect truth other than by our own logic and understanding, our collective experiences and observations. our trusted authorities, pastors, and theologians?

There is actually a reliable, Biblical way found at 2Ti 2:2
And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
That has come to be called the "Apostolic succession."
(The truth taught by the apostle Paul to Timothy then to faithful men and then on to others.)
And, of course, it is rejected by much of Christianity because it seems to be too Roman.

Our experiences teach us don't they? But they don't directly tell us what we learn. After what we experience we change, adapt ourselves or our thinking, grow and mature, or learn hard lessons from hard experiences, or mellow from hard mistakes.

What we get through experience impacts our logic and understanding. And in that way experience is worth more because it can correct or support what we already believe we understand. In the same way anything else we trust can correct us and set us streight. It's in that kind of way I pose the bible is of the highest authority for what is true. Because it can be trusted and has the authority to correct everything else.

It's also good to learn from those who are older then you. If for no other reason because they have more experience under their belt to know about life. It's good to respect and listen to those who've studied and made their life pursuing a topic of their field. Trusted theologians are good for our faith, like doctors are for our health. But there's merrit to being cautious about your health regardless what a doctor might prescribe. If it doesn't sound right or you can be swayed by another going through the same treatments and having a negitive or a positive result, then that's worth keeping in mind. Friends and family, are worth trusting because they care. Their knowledge base will be less likely to ignore your needs or have alternate modivations with the knowledge they give you. Because of this, even if they are not more educated then you or an expert in a field, their knowledge is worth a lot.

Even if we don't know perfect truth, we can have our standards for discerning the truth from rubbish.

I like what you've said about Apostolic succession. I'll keep it in mind and think there's merit with it. Reminds me of some reasons why traditions are important. Because even if we don't understand some traditions when we are younger or first exposed to them, most of the time they offer a foundation to model off of and hold some wisdom in them even if it's not understood right away. Apostolic succession like situtions sounds good to me. Thanks for that thought.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Not_Now.Soon . I like your stuff. Well thought and clear. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. :nod

Thanks. I'm just glad this topic didn't blow up in everyone's face.

 

[for_his_glory]

Many people claim that the Holy Spirit has taught or shown them what it clearly nonsense.
Ellen G. White is an excellent example.

Jim, this is what I am taking about as we need to discern what spirits are teaching us as there are only two that operate. One is the spirit of truth and the other the spirit of error as the Jezebel spirit loves to deceive us as she teaches from the pulpits of many churches, John 14:26; 1 John 4:1-6; Rev 2:18-29.

 

[Jim Parker]

I like what you've said about Apostolic succession.

What came to be called "Apostolic Succession" was the process of insuring that the teaching of the apostles was faithfully preserved and handed down from generation to generation by designated leaders. They were sort of the "standard bearers" of the Church.

Reminds me of some reasons why traditions are important. Because even if we don't understand some traditions when we are younger or first exposed to them, most of the time they offer a foundation to model off of and hold some wisdom in them even if it's not understood right away.

1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
Notice; "by word or epistle." and, Paul's comment at 2Ti 2:2 "And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses,.." refers to an oral tradition. Not everything the Apostles taught made it into the NT.

iakovos the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

A few examples please.

Here's one obvious example: Discussion of RCC topics is restricted to one on one conversations in a separate thread because of the widespread animosity among Protestants against anything that looks Catholic.

 

[jasonc]

Here's one obvious example: Discussion of RCC topics is restricted to one on one conversations in a separate thread because of the widespread animosity among Protestants against anything that looks Catholic.

It has come the other way.I have seen it.