The Pope – The Vicar of Christ

[Mungo]

The Pope – The Vicar of Christ ( from the Latin Vicarius Christi)
Firstly what does the Catholic Church say about the position of the Pope:
The Pope, Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Saint Peter, is the perpetual, visible source and foundation of the unity of the Church. He is the vicar of Christ, the head of the College of bishops and pastor of the universal Church over which he has by divine institution full, supreme, immediate, and universal power. (CCCC 186)

The Vicar of Christ means Christ’s earthly representative. It does not mean the Pope supplants Christ. When a person cannot physically be present somewhere he/she may send someone to represent them, to stand in their place. For example if the Queen of England is invited, as Head of State, to a function and cannot attend she will send someone to represent her; perhaps Prince Charles. This takes nothing away from her as Head of State. But Prince Charles would act in her place, under her authority, with whatever authority she has delegated to him.

We believe that when Jesus physically left this earth he left the apostles to carry on the mission he had started, with his authority. He left Peter as the leader of the apostles as his representative with particular authority for the leadership of the Church.

Jesus founded a Church (Mt 16:18); he founded it on the Apostles (Eph 2:20) and it is described as the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15). The apostles were the leaders of the Church and Jesus appointed Peter as the leader of the apostles (Mt 18:18-19) and the universal shepherd (Jn 21:15-17) of his (Christ’s) flock.

He gave the apostles a mission to go into the whole world and make disciples and teach them everything Jesus had commanded (Mt 28:19-20). That mission would be to the ends of the earth (Acts 1:8) and would last until he came again (Mt 28:20). Thus, though the apostles would die before that mission was complete, there would have to be successors to continue that mission.

The Church would have to grow and adapt to the conditions of the times. We can see the beginnings of that in the New Testament writings, early documents show that development continuing.



The apostles appointed new people to positions of authority (Acts 1:15-26, 6:1-7), made decisions about doctrine (Acts 15:1-35) and had a central authority (at first centred in Jerusalem – see Acts 8:14, 12:22, Acts 15).

 

[JLB]

The Pope – The Vicar of Christ ( from the Latin Vicarius Christi)
Firstly what does the Catholic Church say about the position of the Pope:
The Pope, Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Saint Peter, is the perpetual, visible source and foundation of the unity of the Church. He is the vicar of Christ, the head of the College of bishops and pastor of the universal Church over which he has by divine institution full, supreme, immediate, and universal power. (CCCC 186)

More importantly what does Christ say about a “pope” being the vicar of Christ?


Where does Christ mention a “pope”?


Where do His apostles, those whom Christ chose to represent Him, and teach what He taught them to their disciples, ever mention a “pope”; a supreme leader to rule and govern from Rome?


The scriptures are where we as God’s people must turn for instruction, not the rule books of man.




JLB

 

[Mungo]

More importantly what does Christ say about a “pope” being the vicar of Christ?


Where does Christ mention a “pope”?


Where do His apostles, those whom Christ chose to represent Him, and teach what He taught them to their disciples, ever mention a “pope”; a supreme leader to rule and govern from Rome?


The scriptures are where we as God’s people must turn for instruction, not the rule books of man.




JLB

The name is irrelevant. Scripture clearly shows that Jesus gave Peter the leadership of the apostles.
1. Jesus had an inner circle of three special disciples, Peter, James and John. These were the only ones whom he took up mount Tabor for the Transfiguration and to his place of prayer into the Garden of Gethsemane.

2. Right at the beginning of Jesus ministry he singled out Peter and gave him special status by changing his name. This was a significant act and did not happen to any other apostle.
He [Andrew] brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, “So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas” (which means Peter). (Jn 1:42)

3. Jesus gave Peter a special commission:
In Matthew 16:19 he uniquely gives Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,…

4. And he then continued, giving him (singly) the power of binding and loosing
…..and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
He later gives all the apostles the power of binding and loosing
Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. (Mt 18:18)

This is in the same gospel so it is clearly two separate incidents.

In one he uniquely gives Peter authority to act in his stead, represented by the keys and singly gives him the power to bind and loose.
He then gives he apostles collectively the power to bind and loose.
So the apostles can act collectively to bind and loose, or Peter can act alone to bind and loose. It is quite clear.

5. Jesus told Peter to support his brothers
“Simon, Simon, listen! Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your own faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.” (Lk 22:31-32)

6. Jesus appointed Peter to be the universal shepherd.
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my lambs.” A second time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter felt hurt because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep” (Jn 21:15-17)

7. On many occasions it was Peter who acted as spokesman for the apostles.
But Peter said to him, “Explain this parable to us.” (Mt 15:15)
Then Peter came and said to him (Mt 18:21)
Then Peter said in reply (Mt 19:27)
Then Peter remembered and said to him (Mk 11:21)
Then Jesus asked, “Who touched me?” When all denied it, Peter said … (Lk 8:45)
Peter said, “Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for everyone?” (Lk 12:41)
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom can we go?” (Jn 6:68)

8 And at the beginning of the Church it was Peter who led.
In those days Peter stood up among the believers (Acts 1;15)
But Peter, standing with the eleven, raised his voice and addressed them (Acts 2:14)
“Ananias,” Peter asked (Acts 5:3)
But Peter and the apostles answered (Acts 5:29)
After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them. (Acts 15:7)

Note that in all these examples (in 7 & 8) all the other apostles are with Peter. I have not included occasions where Peter is with just another one or two apostles, such as with the cripple (Acts 3) or before the Sanhedrin (Acts 4)

9. It was to Peter that the collectors of the temple tax came.
When they reached Capernaum, the collectors of the temple tax came to Peter and said (Mt 17:24)

10. John defers to Peter at the empty tomb
They [Peter and John] both ran, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first; and stooping to look in, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in. Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. (John 20:4-6)

11. When Peter is involved his name almost always comes first. For example Peter, James and John (10 instances), Peter and John (12 instances). There is only 1 instance ehere Peter is not given first and that is right at the beginning of Jesus ministry (Jn 1:44).

12. In the lists of apostles (Mt 10:2-4, Mk 3:16-19, Lk 6:14-16) it is Peter who is named first.

 

[JLB]

The name is irrelevant.

Then why do you keep putting so much emphasis on the “pope” and what the “pope” teaches, little to no emphasis on what is taught in the New Testament?

• He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting. Ephesians 4:11-14

• that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting.

JLB

 

[WIP]

The Vicar of Christ means Christ’s earthly representative. It does not mean the Pope supplants Christ.

By definition the word "supplant" means to supersede or replace. Here's the definition from Merriam-Webster.

Definition of supplant
transitive verb

1 : to supersede (another) especially by force or treachery

2 a (1)obsolete : UPROOT
(2): to eradicate and supply a substitute for
//efforts to supplant the vernacular

b: to take the place of and serve as a substitute for especially by reason of superior excellence or power

It should also be noted that in the end of the gospel of Matthew which you referenced, Jesus said, "I am with you always, even to the end of the age." God said the same thing as recorded in Isaiah 41:10 (NKJV)...
"Fear not, for I am with you;
Be not dismayed, for I am your God.
I will strengthen you,
Yes, I will help you,
I will uphold you with My righteous right hand."

He doesn't need to be with us physically for He is with us always, therefore, I do not believe He needs a substitute or earthly representative. He can appear to us at any time as He sees fit. He did it with His disciples multiple times after He rose from the dead and He can do it now if He deems it necessary.

 

[Mungo]

Then why do you keep putting so much emphasis on the “pope” and what the “pope” teaches, little to no emphasis on what is taught in the New Testament?



JLB

Do you have ANY evidence for that claim?
At the Sunday Mass we have 4 readings (3 on a weekday) from scripture and a homily on one (or more) of them.
I've never heard anything quoted from a Pope at Mass (Sunday or weekday).

 

[Mungo]

By definition the word "supplant" means to supersede or replace. Here's the definition from Merriam-Webster.

Definition of supplant
transitive verb

1 : to supersede (another) especially by force or treachery

2 a (1)obsolete : UPROOT
(2): to eradicate and supply a substitute for
//efforts to supplant the vernacular

b: to take the place of and serve as a substitute for especially by reason of superior excellence or power

It should also be noted that in the end of the gospel of Matthew which you referenced, Jesus said, "I am with you always, even to the end of the age." God said the same thing as recorded in Isaiah 41:10 (NKJV)...
"Fear not, for I am with you;
Be not dismayed, for I am your God.
I will strengthen you,
Yes, I will help you,
I will uphold you with My righteous right hand."

He doesn't need to be with us physically for He is with us always, therefore, I do not believe He needs a substitute or earthly representative. He can appear to us at any time as He sees fit. He did it with His disciples multiple times after He rose from the dead and He can do it now if He deems it necessary.

I specifically said

It does not mean the Pope supplants Christ.

Neither did I say the Pope replaces Christ.
So your criticism is baseless.

 

[JLB]

Do you have ANY evidence for that claim?
At the Sunday Mass we have 4 readings (3 on a weekday) from scripture and a homily on one (or more) of them.
I've never heard anything quoted from a Pope at Mass (Sunday or weekday).

Where are you scriptures that teach us Jesus set up a “pope” to be a supreme ruler over the Church to govern from Rome?


Where are the scriptures in the New Testament whereby the Apostles taught the Church about a “pope” that would govern the Church from Rome.

• He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting. Ephesians 4:11-14

• that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting.

We are to be governed by Jesus Christ, in which we obey and teach His doctrine; The Doctrine of Christ. To be led by His Spirit in which we give heed to His teachings, commandments and gospel.



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

• does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.

If we follow what you and the “pope” are teaching then we would have to abandon the teachings of Jesus Christ.


Sorry, no can do.




JLB

 

[WIP]

I specifically said

Neither did I say the Pope replaces Christ.
So your criticism is baseless.

First, it wasn't meant to criticize. You need to lower your defenses a notch or two. Second, I stand corrected as I misread what you wrote.

 

[Mungo]

Where are you scriptures that teach us Jesus set up a “pope” to be a supreme ruler over the Church to govern from Rome?


Where are the scriptures in the New Testament whereby the Apostles taught the Church about a “pope” that would govern the Church from Rome.

As I pointed out the name of the office (Pope) is irrelevant, neither is the place.
For several years the Popes were in exile from Rome but carried out their leadership from Avignon.

In post #3 I showed that Peter was appointed by Christ as the leader of the apostles, and others (including apostles) accepted him as leader.

When Peter is involved his name almost always comes first. For example Peter, James and John (10 instances), Peter and John (12 instances). There is only 1 instance where Peter is not given first and that is right at the beginning of Jesus ministry (Jn 1:44).

In the lists of apostles (Mt 10:2-4, Mk 3:16-19, Lk 6:14-16) it is Peter who is named first.

• He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting. Ephesians 4:11-14

• that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting.

We are to be governed by Jesus Christ, in which we obey and teach His doctrine; The Doctrine of Christ. To be led by His Spirit in which we give heed to His teachings, commandments and gospel.



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

• does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.

If we follow what you and the “pope” are teaching then we would have to abandon the teachings of Jesus Christ.


Sorry, no can do.




JLB

Can you give an example where following the teaching of the Pope we have to abandon the teaching of Jesus Christ?

 

[JLB]

In post #3 I showed that Peter was appointed by Christ as the leader of the apostles, and others (including apostles) accepted him as leader.

Please quote the scripture where Christ made Peter the leader of the apostles.

 

[Mungo]

Please quote the scripture where Christ made Peter the leader of the apostles.

I did in post #3

 

[JLB]

Can you give an example where following the teaching of the Pope we have to abandon the teaching of Jesus Christ?

The New Testament teaches that Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man.


For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5


Yet the “pope” promotes the tradition of the Catholic Church, teaching the converts to pray to Mary and the saints, as mediators.

Methodius

"Therefore, we pray thee, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in thee, and who in hymns august celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.).





The “pope” promotes the Catholic teaching of priests remaining unmarried.

Pope Francis —

On celibacy in priests: “Yes, hypothetically, western Catholicism could revise the theme of celibacy. … But for the moment, I am in favor of maintaining celibacy, with the pros and the cons it has, because we have ten centuries of more good experiences than bad ones.”


Scripture teaches —

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);
1 Timothy 3:2-5


The “pope” pronounces a curse on those who don’t follow his teachings as supreme leader of the Roman Catholic church.


Here is Pope Clement pronouncing a curse on people who read the Bible without a license from the Catholic Church.


Pope Clement VIII (1592-1605) confirmed the Council of Trent’s proclamations against Bible translations (Eadie, History of the English Bible, II, p. 112). Trent’s ten rules regarding books prohibited anyone from reading the Bible without a license from the bishop or an inquisitor. Clement VIII modified this by declaring “the Holy Inquisition have taken away from Bishops and Superiors all power to grant any such licences” (Littledale, Plain Reasons, p. 91). Thus, Clement VIII went further than his predecessors, not allowing licenses to be granted for the reading of the Bible under any condition.

It is important to notify our readers of the harshness of the curses that poured from the lips of the popes toward those who opposed them. Clement VIII, for example, restored and edited the “Curse from the Roman Pontifical against Those Who Interfere with Nuns.” This curse was issued against any person that attempted to remove a nun from her unscriptural vows and from her cloister:
“But if any one shall dare to attempt such a thing, let him be accursed at home and abroad; accursed in eating and drinking; accursed in walking and sitting; accursed in his flesh and his bones; and from the sole of his foot, to the crown of his head, let him have no soundness. Come upon him the malediction which, by Moses in the law, the Lord hath laid on the sons of iniquity. Be his name blotted out from the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. His portion and inheritance be with Cain, the fratricide; with Dathan and Abiram; with Ananias and Sapphira; with Simon the sorcerer, and Judas the traitor; with those who have said to God, ‘Depart from us, we desire not the knowledge of thy ways.’ Let him perish in the day of judgment; and let everlasting fire devour him with the devil and his angels; unless he make restitution, and come to amendment. So be it! So be it!” (Blakeney, Popery in Its Social Aspect, 1854, pp. 125, 126).




JLB

 

[JLB]

I did in post #3

The name is irrelevant. Scripture clearly shows that Jesus gave Peter the leadership of the apostles.
1. Jesus had an inner circle of three special disciples, Peter, James and John. These were the only ones whom he took up mount Tabor for the Transfiguration and to his place of prayer into the Garden of Gethsemane.

2. Right at the beginning of Jesus ministry he singled out Peter and gave him special status by changing his name. This was a significant act and did not happen to any other apostle.
He [Andrew] brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, “So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas” (which means Peter). (Jn 1:42)

3. Jesus gave Peter a special commission:
In Matthew 16:19 he uniquely gives Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,…

4. And he then continued, giving him (singly) the power of binding and loosing
…..and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
He later gives all the apostles the power of binding and loosing
Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. (Mt 18:18)

This is in the same gospel so it is clearly two separate incidents.

In one he uniquely gives Peter authority to act in his stead, represented by the keys and singly gives him the power to bind and loose.
He then gives he apostles collectively the power to bind and loose.
So the apostles can act collectively to bind and loose, or Peter can act alone to bind and loose. It is quite clear.

5. Jesus told Peter to support his brothers
“Simon, Simon, listen! Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your own faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.” (Lk 22:31-32)

6. Jesus appointed Peter to be the universal shepherd.
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my lambs.” A second time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter felt hurt because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep” (Jn 21:15-17)

7. On many occasions it was Peter who acted as spokesman for the apostles.
But Peter said to him, “Explain this parable to us.” (Mt 15:15)
Then Peter came and said to him (Mt 18:21)
Then Peter said in reply (Mt 19:27)
Then Peter remembered and said to him (Mk 11:21)
Then Jesus asked, “Who touched me?” When all denied it, Peter said … (Lk 8:45)
Peter said, “Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for everyone?” (Lk 12:41)
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom can we go?” (Jn 6:68)

8 And at the beginning of the Church it was Peter who led.
In those days Peter stood up among the believers (Acts 1;15)
But Peter, standing with the eleven, raised his voice and addressed them (Acts 2:14)
“Ananias,” Peter asked (Acts 5:3)
But Peter and the apostles answered (Acts 5:29)
After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them. (Acts 15:7)

Note that in all these examples (in 7 & 8) all the other apostles are with Peter. I have not included occasions where Peter is with just another one or two apostles, such as with the cripple (Acts 3) or before the Sanhedrin (Acts 4)

9. It was to Peter that the collectors of the temple tax came.
When they reached Capernaum, the collectors of the temple tax came to Peter and said (Mt 17:24)

10. John defers to Peter at the empty tomb
They [Peter and John] both ran, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first; and stooping to look in, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in. Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. (John 20:4-6)

11. When Peter is involved his name almost always comes first. For example Peter, James and John (10 instances), Peter and John (12 instances). There is only 1 instance ehere Peter is not given first and that is right at the beginning of Jesus ministry (Jn 1:44).

12. In the lists of apostles (Mt 10:2-4, Mk 3:16-19, Lk 6:14-16) it is Peter who is named first.

No scripture here whereby Jesus makes Peter head over the Church.


You are reading into the scripture what you have been taught.


The rock, or foundation we are to build our lives on is that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.


The rock is not Peter.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Pope says —


Pope Paul V (1605-1621) issued a Bull containing the following language: “We excommunicate and anathematize, in the name of Almighty God, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and by the authority of his blessed Apostles, Peter and Paul, and by our own, all Wickliffites, Hussities, Lutherans, Calvinists, Hugonots, Anabaptists, and all other Heretics, by whatsoever name they are called, and of whatsoever sect they be; and also, all Schismatics, and those who withdraw themselves, or recede obstinately from the obedience of the Bishop of Rome; as also their Adherents, Receivers, Favourers, and generally any defenders of them:—TOGETHER WITH ALL, WHO, WITHOUT THE AUTHORITY OF THE APOSTOLIC SEE, SHALL KNOWINGLY READ, KEEP, OR PRINT, ANY OF THEIR BOOKS WHICH TREAT ON RELIGION, or by or for any cause whatever, publicly or privately, on any pretence or colour defend them” (Ouseley, A Short Defence of the Old Religion, 1821, p. 257).



Scripture says —


Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15





JLB

 

[Mungo]

The New Testament teaches that Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man.


For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5


Yet the “pope” promotes the tradition of the Catholic Church, teaching the converts to pray to Mary and the saints, as mediators.

Methodius

"Therefore, we pray thee, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in thee, and who in hymns august celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.).

When we pray for each other we are acting as mediators.

Paul asks others to pray for him (Eph 6:19-20, Col 4:3, 1Thess 5:25, 2 Thess 3:1)

Paul instruct Timothy First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour (1Tim 2:1-3)

How can Paul urge Timothy and others to mediate and then say 2 verses later there is only one mediator?

Because as members of the Body of Christ, He allows us to share in His mediation.

Hebrews tells us that Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant ((Heb 9:15, 12:24). We do not mediate in that sense but only as intercessors.

So no contradiction

The “pope” promotes the Catholic teaching of priests remaining unmarried.

Pope Francis —

On celibacy in priests: “Yes, hypothetically, western Catholicism could revise the theme of celibacy. … But for the moment, I am in favor of maintaining celibacy, with the pros and the cons it has, because we have ten centuries of more good experiences than bad ones.”


Scripture teaches —

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);
1 Timothy 3:2-5

I have consulted several commentaries on this and the view seems to be that Paul is not saying that a bishop must be married but that he should not have more than one wife, either because because he has divorced one or practices polygamy, as apparently happened among the gentiles and some Jews. It is part of his suitability for becoming a bishop. Paul himself was not married. For example:

Husband of one wife literally means “a one-woman kind of man.” This expression has been interpreted as a general exclusion from office of all who are sexually immoral or of polygamists, or as referring specifically to those who have remarried after divorce. (The Nelson Study Bible: New King James Version)

So again, no contradiction.

The “pope” pronounces a curse on those who don’t follow his teachings as supreme leader of the Roman Catholic church.


Here is Pope Clement pronouncing a curse on people who read the Bible without a license from the Catholic Church.


Pope Clement VIII (1592-1605) confirmed the Council of Trent’s proclamations against Bible translations (Eadie, History of the English Bible, II, p. 112). Trent’s ten rules regarding books prohibited anyone from reading the Bible without a license from the bishop or an inquisitor. Clement VIII modified this by declaring “the Holy Inquisition have taken away from Bishops and Superiors all power to grant any such licences” (Littledale, Plain Reasons, p. 91). Thus, Clement VIII went further than his predecessors, not allowing licenses to be granted for the reading of the Bible under any condition.

I have looked through the Council of Trent's proclamations and can find no evidence of any "ten rules regarding books prohibited anyone from reading the Bible without a license from the bishop or an inquisitor."
Please can you supply the actual canons that said this.

Regarding Bible translations, the Catholic Church forbade people to read corrupt Bibles produced by Protestants and heretics. The Church values scripture and does not want to see it corrupted. Moreover many of these corrupt translations also had misleading or erroneous footnotes and anti-Catholic comments in them. But the Church did produce translations in the vernacular and as far as I know banned no-one from reading them.

It is important to notify our readers of the harshness of the curses that poured from the lips of the popes toward those who opposed them. Clement VIII, for example, restored and edited the “Curse from the Roman Pontifical against Those Who Interfere with Nuns.” This curse was issued against any person that attempted to remove a nun from her unscriptural vows and from her cloister:
“But if any one shall dare to attempt such a thing, let him be accursed at home and abroad; accursed in eating and drinking; accursed in walking and sitting; accursed in his flesh and his bones; and from the sole of his foot, to the crown of his head, let him have no soundness. Come upon him the malediction which, by Moses in the law, the Lord hath laid on the sons of iniquity. Be his name blotted out from the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. His portion and inheritance be with Cain, the fratricide; with Dathan and Abiram; with Ananias and Sapphira; with Simon the sorcerer, and Judas the traitor; with those who have said to God, ‘Depart from us, we desire not the knowledge of thy ways.’ Let him perish in the day of judgment; and let everlasting fire devour him with the devil and his angels; unless he make restitution, and come to amendment. So be it! So be it!” (Blakeney, Popery in Its Social Aspect, 1854, pp. 125, 126).



JLB

I wouldn't give credence to any claim from a book that uses the word "Popery" in it's title and a sub title of Being a Complete Exposure of the Immorality and Intolerance of Romanism.

Do you have any credible source for this?

​

 

[Mungo]

No scripture here whereby Jesus makes Peter head over the Church.


You are reading into the scripture what you have been taught.


The rock, or foundation we are to build our lives on is that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.


The rock is not Peter.





JLB

The quotes I gave are very clear that Jesus singled out Peter for a special position in the church, and that others, including the apostles recognised that.

Regarding Peter as the Rock I will post a new thread on that.

 

[Mungo]

Pope says —


Pope Paul V (1605-1621) issued a Bull containing the following language: “We excommunicate and anathematize, in the name of Almighty God, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and by the authority of his blessed Apostles, Peter and Paul, and by our own, all Wickliffites, Hussities, Lutherans, Calvinists, Hugonots, Anabaptists, and all other Heretics, by whatsoever name they are called, and of whatsoever sect they be; and also, all Schismatics, and those who withdraw themselves, or recede obstinately from the obedience of the Bishop of Rome; as also their Adherents, Receivers, Favourers, and generally any defenders of them:—TOGETHER WITH ALL, WHO, WITHOUT THE AUTHORITY OF THE APOSTOLIC SEE, SHALL KNOWINGLY READ, KEEP, OR PRINT, ANY OF THEIR BOOKS WHICH TREAT ON RELIGION, or by or for any cause whatever, publicly or privately, on any pretence or colour defend them” (Ouseley, A Short Defence of the Old Religion, 1821, p. 257).



Scripture says —


Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15





JLB

This looks like another piece of anti-Catholic fakery.

I have searched for papal bulls of Paul V and come up with "Unigenitus" - "Condemnation of the Errors of Paschasius" which contains nothing like this.

Also Wikipedia in its list of papal bulls only gives one for Paul V called Exponi nobis nuper fecistis which I can only find in Latin. According to Wikipedia it "Regulates dowries of Roman Jews" so it's unlikely to say what is claimed.

But even if this claim were true it does not forbid people to read and study the Bible.

So no contradiction to 2 Tim 2:15

 

[JLB]

When we pray for each other we are acting as mediators.

Nope!

The discussion certainly is not about praying for each other.


The discussing is about praying to Mary, or praying to saints, so that they will mediate between the person praying and God.


There is one Mediator between God and man.


For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:6



Mary is not a mediator!

Saints are not mediators!

Angels are not mediators!




JLB

 

[JLB]

The quotes I gave are very clear that Jesus singled out Peter for a special position in the church, and that others, including the apostles recognised that.

Regarding Peter as the Rock I will post a new thread on that.

There is nothing in Scripture whereby Jesus singled out Peter in such a way as to be the supreme authority over all the entire church worldwide. Nothing.


Please show us where Christ or His apostles used the phrase “Vicar of Christ“ to be associated with a person who is to be the supreme ruler of the church world wide?


Vicar of Christ is a man made term, that comes from a man made dogma, not from Christ or Hs teachings.


Plain and simple.




JLB