The Pope – The Vicar of Christ

[JLB]

It was not the CC that fractured the ‘Body of Christ’.

Denominations and sects that are man made have divided the Lord’s people, which have various doctrines that Christ did not teach.

Whether baptist, or Methodist, or Church of God, Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses, Catholic or Protestant, AOG, or UPC, and many more, these are just man made made names of sections in the body of Christ that are not found in scripture.


Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Corinthians 1:10-13


Many follow the teachings of the Vatican and the Pope, while others follow the teachings of Calvinism (John Calvin) or Arminianism
(Jacobus Arminian) while others align themselves with Martin Luther, and believe and teach these peoples doctrines.


There is one doctrine; the doctrine of Christ.

There may be many teachings on many subjects within the framework of the Doctrine of Christ.

The New Testament is where we can find what Christ Jesus taught His disciples and the things His apostles taught the Church.


And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:18-20

• teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16





JLB

 

[Niblo]

Denominations and sects that are man made have divided the Lord’s people, which have various doctrines that Christ did not teach.

Whether baptist, or Methodist, or Church of God, Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses, Catholic or Protestant, AOG, or UPC, and many more, these are just man made made names of sections in the body of Christ that are not found in scripture.


Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Corinthians 1:10-13


Many follow the teachings of the Vatican and the Pope, while others follow the teachings of Calvinism (John Calvin) or Arminianism
(Jacobus Arminian) while others align themselves with Martin Luther, and believe and teach these peoples doctrines.


There is one doctrine; the doctrine of Christ.

There may be many teachings on many subjects within the framework of the Doctrine of Christ.

The New Testament is where we can find what Christ Jesus taught His disciples and the things His apostles taught the Church.


And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:18-20

• teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16





JLB

I repeat. It was not the CC that fractured the 'Body of Christ'.

 

[Mosheli]

In Post 27 you write:

‘But when I researched the popes list I found that the early popes list really matches the Roman emperors list (e.g. pope Pius I matches emperor Antoninus Pius in name, meaning, dates, details, and the preceding & succeeding popes & emperors also match all in order), so the popes can't* not be genuine successors of Peter (having his keys/authority) and can't be true vicars of Christ.’

* I presume this is a typo for ‘can’.

Fascinating stuff. Let’s have a look at your examples:

You link Pope St. Clement I with the Emperor you call ‘Domitian (Clemens)’.

Clement was Bishop of Rome from 88 CE until his death in 99 CE; and a contemporary of Saints Peter and Paul.

The Emperor Domitian (birth name: Titus Flavius Domitianus) reigned from 81 to 96 CE.

Domitian was never called ‘Clemens’. This cognomen belonged to his cousin Titus Flavius Clemens

According to the Jewish Encyclopaedia (1901) Flavius Clemens ‘converted to Judaism, and was martyred at Rome.’

Please explain the connection between St. Clement and Domitian (aside from the fact that they were contemporaries, living in Rome); and why you think this connection mitigates against Clement being a ‘genuine successor of Peter’.

It won't let me post over 10000 characters so I have to cut his into two or more.

I'm not gong to waste hours and hours and days and days and years and years discussing the details matches evidences of the popes & emperors if you are just going to keep doing cunning clever twisting tactics. Since you are not really genuinely objectively interested in my claimed match(es) you are just out to use every dirty clever tactic to try to make it falsely look all wrong and there is no point me wasting my time. If you really want to give a fair consideration of my evidences then I am happy to discuss the matches of any one pope & emperor match at a time (not lots of them at same time). I have actually already written an ebook on it and I should post the link to my save time here, but I fear if I do that the ebook may suddenly disappear. So I will post on each of the popes & emperors matches you have attacked.

Re pope Clement I = Domitian:

1. I did not "call [him] Domitian (Clemens)", I said he is cousin of Clemens.

2. Clement I's dates are not "88 to died 99 ce", his dates from comparing a number of different sources are 68-76 or 88/91/92-92/97/99/100/101.
Domitian's reign dates are 81-96/97, but you have to also add further dates of
Domitian aided in the admin of the empire in 69(-?);
Received title of Caesar in 69 or 71;
Ceremonial heir 71-81.
So,
both Clement's & Domitian's dates coincide (69 & 71-76 &) 88-96/97;
both end dates 96/97 match;
both similar start dates 68/69 or 81/91.
And remember they altered some of the dates due to some reasons like omitting some emperors (and readjusting), or spliting some emperors into two popes, and to disguise the match of the two lists.

3. Clement is not contemporary of Peter and Paul when he was supposedly bishop/pope because Peter was 1st bishop/pope and Clement was 4th, three bishops after Peter and Paul were martyred under Nero. He would only be contemporary with Peter and Paul before he was allegedly bishop.

4. It doesn't matter that Domitian wasn't called Clemens. He is definitely linked/associated/connected with the name Clemens via/by/through being cousin of Clemens. And as you noted that both had the same first two names (Titus Flavius Domitian, and Titus Flavius CLemens), which when you superimpose both full names makes Domitian and Clemens equate. Plus another family member was (Marcus) Arrecinus Clemens, which strengthens his link with the name. Moreover there are also another further additional ways the 2 persons names are linked via Titus (& la Clemeza di Tito) & Cletus, and via Timothy & Domitian, and via the name 'Clemens Romanus'. And the saying "for kata ton deloumenon is meaningless if it is taken to refer to Clement and not to Domitian" clearly subtly implies the two persons are the same. Furthermore, "T Flavius Clemens... was martyred by his first cousin, the Emperor Domitian", which directly associates the two persons, and often in the popes & emperors matches they did this identifying the martyed with the martyrer (eg Peter & Nero, Domitian & Clemens).
And finally clemency is an cunning "contempt for christianity" inversion of "Domitian's tyranny" and "2nd persecution of christians" and "no christian exempt from punishment", and his being considered "a reincarnation of Nero (who was considered antichrist 666)".
And remember we are dealing with a fictitious made-up popes list, not real bishops/popes, and they made disguising alterations, so you can't assert I have to have exact perfect 100 percent obvious matches (not that the matches I show are weak, they are pretty stark).

 

[Mosheli]

Clement & Domitian continued/concluded.

5. You can cite all the encyclopedia Judaica/Britannica/Catholic all you like but you seem to ignore that they are based on all the church & Roman writings etc. Nevertheless I am ablbe to show strong matches given fair time chance.

6. You say I can't prove it but you are lying because I can give pretty strong matches evidences. Moreover you can not prove that any of these "bishops/popes" ever existed outside of post 100s/200s Roman "church" writings and later writings based on them. The burden is not on me it is on you to prove they existed (not just quoting Roman/church writings and later encyclopedias all based on them). You can not prove that Clement's writings truly date to 80s-90s ad, and were really written by a bishop Clement I (and even if they were they could have falsely identified a real Clement with their fake "Clement", like they falsely mixed other christian and pagan persons/places/days). Any true/real historian not under secret Roman influence would say the same that there is no solid historical proof of these "bishops/popes" existence.
I do not have to prove 100 percent I only have to prove strong/compelling enough matches evidences. You have to prove even more than me.

7. I am not saying they just have some link with an emperor. I am saying they are not really bishops/popes but were really emperors falsely called popes. We know these emperors were not christians but quite the contrary, so if the popes really match the emperors it does disquaify them as christian bishop successors of Peter (who was also never in Rome).
As to they reason why I think it mitigates against Clement and other "bishops/popes" being genuine successors of Peter. Surely it is obvious that "pope Clement I" really matches Domitian and is thus a fake, and his predecessor and successor popes also match Domitian's predecessor and successor emperors all in order (in names, meanings, dates, details, preceding & succeeding popes & emperors), so they are not successors of the biblical Peter.

8. Clement is linked with Peter because Domitian was considered to be a reincarnation of Nero.
Peter - Nero
(3 "usurpers" excluded)
Linus - Vespasian
Cletus - Titus
Clement - Domitian.
And/or because some scholars think the persecution in Peters letter is the Domitian one not the Nero one. (And Jesus said Peter would be old.)

9. You are wrong to say that the only link is that Clement & Domitian were contemporaries. So so far we have a match for the name Clement, the meaning clemency, the dates, the previous and succeeding popes & emperors also match (and number/order match (both 4th)), and they were both allegedly in Rome, and both were pontiffex maximus (though one is an anachronism). There are also some other matches of details of CLement & Domitian. But even just with the names and the dates matches (of this pope & emperor and of the preceeding and succeeding ones too all in order) alone it is pretty strking and you are wrong to so lightly dismiss it.
Some other details matches:
Clement linked with stone quarry/cutters & "house of Clement" matches Domitian inititated a massive building program & erected a vast Flavian palace / House of the people, and he finished the temple of Vespasian & Titus, and the Arch of Titus was completed in his reign.
Clement was martyed, matches either Domitian persecution or Domitian martyed Clemens (inversion), or matches Domitian assassinated.
Clement "probably knew Timothy", matches Domitian considered contemporary of Timothy (and the names Domitian and Timothy are also similar).
Clement: The Clement of the bible was "probably a Philippian". Phil-ip means "lover of horses". Domitian: "qualities he found more often in men of the equestrian order...." "relying on a small set of friends and equestrians...."
CLement "born in/at Rome". Domitian born in/at Rome. (Name Romanus is also maybe similar to Domitianus with a D/R interchange?)
Both connected with the senate:
Clement was a "member of the Roman senate".
Domitian "received the education of a young man of the privileged senatorial class...."
"Domitian acted as the representative of the Flavian family in the Roman Senate." "these offices no doubt gained Domitian valuable experience in the Roman Senate....".
Clement 3rd pope after Peter. Domitian 3rd after Neor excluding 3 "usurpers", and Domitian's great-grandfather's surname was Petro.
But of course you will try to dismiss them all no matter how much quantity and quality details matches evidences I give.

10. The contradiction of Peter being succeeded by Linus then CLetus and CLement in one version, but Peter being succeeded by CLement in another version proves your Roman stories are lies. I don't have to prove, you have to prove. Even if/when you claim Linus & Cletus were bishops during Peter's time it still contradicts the official popes list so your sacrosanct list is admitted to be wrong/lie. All popes lists I see have the first 4 popes all succeeding and later dates, so you/they are saying you have lied to not have Clement as contemporary with Peter in any of the lists.

If/when you accept Clement & Domitian then I will deal with Alexander & Trajan, and with Pius & Antoninus Pius, and with Calixtus & Caracalla, and Hippolytus & Heligobalus/Heliogabalus in following posts. But if you don't accept Clement & Domitian then you won't accept any, and there is no point wasting my time and effort if you are obviously only/just out to try falsely trash anyway you can and not give a fair consideration/chance hearing of the details matches evidences.
(If it is not obvious that you are only out to unfairly falsely trash and not consider fairly, more evidence you that you are not genuine is that you claim to be not a christian and yet you seem oddly very pro pope.)

 

[Mungo]

This thread has descended into complete fantasy and is being closed.