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The Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

Lawlord

Lawlord

Member
Greetings,

I have made a 12 minute video discussing this topic. It is part of my 5 part end times summary videos. I cannot post links but it is on my youtube channel godlord21 titled: "The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a False Teaching! BE WARNED!"

I believe the pre-tribulation rapture is not borne out by the Word of God. I feel it ignores the scripture showing us that we will suffer and be hated in these times, war will be made against us, we will be beheaded and killed for the testimony of our word etc. I feel like the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is contributing to lack of preparedness and the falling away in the body of Christ, when the faith of many will fail under persecution and difficulty as they thought they would never suffer.

In this video I display onscreen all of the Word of God I rely on in my interpretation as I discuss this topic, so please read the information in the video as well.

You are welcome to disagree, and have your own interpretations. I am open to discussion and consideration of others points of view and opinions, however, I feel a lot of scripture must be ignored or distorted to accept the belief of the pre-tribulation rapture.

We are told those who are in the light will not be taken as a thief, they will not be sleeping but being awake and aware of the signs (1 Thes 5:1-8). I see the many signs of the impending judgment of the Lord upon the earth.

The Word tells us of the saints suffering under persecution, being hated by all nations, delivered up to death by their families, killed during the first four seals, made war against by the beast, the dragon, the false-prophet, and their blood found in Babylon (Babylon destroyed Rev 18). I cannot rectify these many areas of the Word of God with the belief that all believers will be taken before the tribulation. We are told that not all who say they are believers are true believers (Matthew 7:21-23), we are told the day of the Lord will not come before an apostasy/falling away and the man of sin exalting himself in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Anyway, you are welcome to consider my video. You can read the video description under the video to get a good summary of my main contention here.

I have made this video and other videos on my channel because I felt a lot of the Word of God was being ignored. I am moving according to my feelings and drivings of my spirit. Again you are welcome to have your own opinions/interpretations, I am open to discussion on these topics.

Kind Regards, Christopher
 
I have made a 12 minute video discussing this topic. It is part of my 5 part end times summary videos. I cannot post links but it is on my youtube channel godlord21 titled: "The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a False Teaching! BE WARNED!"
Click to expand...
Thank you for honoring the TOS :)
 
Lawlord said:
I believe the pre-tribulation rapture is not borne out by the Word of God. I feel it ignores the scripture showing us that we will suffer and be hated in these times, war will be made against us, we will be beheaded and killed for the testimony of our word etc. I feel like the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is contributing to lack of preparedness and the falling away in the body of Christ, when the faith of many will fail under persecution and difficulty as they thought they would never suffer.
Click to expand...
To believe that is not currently happening now is simply closing ones eyes to reality......
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/0...ted-group-in-world-for-second-year-study.html
http://www.christianpost.com/news/why-are-christians-the-worlds-most-persecuted-group-115410/
Even Huff'n Puff:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelly-james-clark/christianity-most-persecuted-religion_b_2402644.html

No need to wait for the tribulation....it is happening now.....Though I do fail to see how "I feel like the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is contributing to lack of preparedness and the falling away in the body of Christ,...". It seems that promise of a rapture which removes us from The Tribulation would cause a renewal in the body of Christ, not a falling away.
 
I agree persecution is happening now. People are being beheaded around the world. As I state in my summary end times video, Christianity is the world's most persecuted religion, with over 90,000 people being killed in 2016. I say this will only increase. The Bible describes times where all Christians will be hated by all nations. This is not yet at this level yet. The Bible describes times when all who do not worship the beast will be hunted and decreed to be put to death. All believers in Christ will be targets. They won't be able to buy food, water or goods in the world system and be forced to rely solely on God during difficulty, suffering and persecution.

As I believe the warnings of Jesus and the Word of God of what He tells us is coming, I find the pre-tribulation rapture as totally unsatisfactory and a teaching of man. It contributes to lack of preparedness and falling away because it is not grounded in the Word of God. It doesn't account for the many areas of scripture that prove beyond doubt the saints will suffer during the tribulation. To expect that you will be taken away before you experience suffering is a selfish belief not borne out by the Word of God. Are you better than the saints who suffer during these times? I'm not directing this at you, but in general.

Those who believe in the pre-tribulation rapture have not readied themselves and prepared themselves with the extremity of what the Word tells us is coming. Why consider the beast and the mark of the beast, or why consider the coming judgment if you believe you will never experience it? This is a damaging belief. When believers who believe in the pre-tribulation find themselves not taken from the earth, but are in suffering and tribulation how are they going to feel? If they are forced to choose between the mark of the beast or death, what are they going to do if they never thought it would come to this? Can you see my point of how it leads to lack of preparedness, since it is a belief of expectation that they will avoid the Word of God, and what the Word of God has said will occur to the saints during this time. Those who believe in a post-tribulation rapture know and have prepared themselves mentally to suffer, to overcome, and to endure until the return of Christ and keep their faith unto their deaths. Those who believe in the pre-tribulation rapture expect they will skip all of this and go straight to God, taken from the earth before the events described by Jesus to occur. This is my point on lack of preparedness. We all must ground ourselves in the Word of God, not the teachings of men. There will undoubtedly be a great falling away, and a large part of this will be a result of the comfortable teachings of the pre-trib rapture.
 
Its just a made up teaching to stop people from freaking out on end times scripture and to create a lack of faith by believing The Most High will magically beam them into the sky when times get rough.
 
That's my thoughts. The pre-trib rapture belief is not preparing you for the reality of the Word and what will occur during these times. How can you be prepared if you think you will avoid it all?
 
dirtfarmer here

After the blood was applied to the door posts and the lintel of the Israelites in Egypt, was the Israelites ever subject to the wrath of God that the rest of the world was subject to?

Malachi 3:16-17 God says that a book of remembrance would written of those that feared him and thought upon his name would be jewels and would be spared.
Romans 5:9, " Much more then, being justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."
1 Thessalonians 1:10, " And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."
Ephesians 1:14, " Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."
1 Thessalonians 5:9, " For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

The believer is saved from the wrath to come which is the tribulation period. During the tribulation period there will be 12,000 from each tribe that will be sealed(144,000), they will enter the earthly kingdom and it is those 144,000 that will fulfill Matthew 28;19 by going into all nations baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
 
No they were not the subjects of the Lord’s wrath. Nor are we subject to the Lord’s wrath, if we are actually true believers in Him (not all are true believers Matthew 7:21/Rev criticisms of the church, Rev 2:4-5, Rev 2:16, Rev 2:20-24, Rev 3:1-3, Rev 3:9, Rev 3:15-19) we are not subject to His wrath (1 Thes 5:9). We are told of those in 1 Thes 5:4-8 KJV “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.”

So they are watching, not drunk and sober, the day of the Lord will not overtake them as a thief because they are children of the light and not children of darkness. Thus they will see the signs ahead of time. I think it’s important to note that the Lord is calling much of the church to repentance.

I agree with your quoted scriptures, we will be delivered from wrath. However, I don’t believe the Word tells us we will be removed from the earth. I believe the Word tells us this deliverance will be by protecting us from evil, while we are on the earth (Psalm 91).

First we have the Lord in John 17:15 praying to His Father that we not be taken from the earth, but being protected from evil. We have mention of Lot being protected in 2 Peter 2:7-9 KJV “And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexedhis righteous soul from day to day withtheir unlawful deeds;) 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished”.

So we have Lot being delivered. He was not taken from the earth. He was warned by two angels to flee the city, thus he was not appointed unto wrath and he was warned to leave. Note that Lot’s family did not leave and because they didn’t heed the warning to leave they were also destroyed. The part at 9 “The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations” is also referred to as trials in other translations.

This is similar to the Lord’s protection in Revelation 3:10 to those who are worthy and have served Him well, they will be protected from the trial/temptations (same language). The Lord will protect many of us in the coming times, but we will be on the earth.

I say that given the example we are given, using the same language, that Lot was delivered by warning to spare Him from wrath, but He was not taken from the earth. The Word doesn’t tell us we will be taken from the earth.

Now, while we are not appointed unto the Lord’s wrath, many will undoubtedly be martyred during the end times. While this will be very difficult for those involved, it is actually a glorious testament of their faith, 1 Peter 4:12-13 KJV “Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.”

So while we will be delivered and protected, there are many examples of the saints suffering during these times. Rev 2:10, Revelation 6:9-11 (saints who die for the Word of God and the testimony they held during first four seals), Revelation 7:14-17 (saints coming out of the great tribulation having washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb), the two witnesses of God are slain (but resurrected) Rev 11:7, Rev 12:17 dragon makes war against those who hold the commandments of God and testimony of Jesus, Rev 13:7 beast given power to make war against saints and overcome them, Rev 13:15 false-prophet orders all who do not worship beast be put to death, Rev 15:2 saints who obtained victory over the beast, his image, his mark and the number of his name having harps of God (how did they obtain victory over the beast if they weren’t on the earth?), Babylon which is destroyed by the 7th angels bowl of wrath/millstone said to hold the blood of the saints and martyrs of Jesus Rev 17:6, and Rev 18:24 in Babylon found blood of saints etc.

So what is your view on all these passages of scripture describing the suffering and martyrdom of the saints? Do you say this does not happen? How can the saints be raptured away before the tribulation if these saints are on the earth during this time? I would like to hear your opinion on this. Do you say there are two sets of saints? Or do you say this scripture will not happen? I'm confused with the pre-trib position on these verses.

We are told by Jesus Matthew 24:9 KJV “Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.” Jesus is telling us this directly. So while we will be protected, and can be delivered from evil, we are told many will be martyred. If the beast/false-prophet mandates all who do not worship him are to be put to death, I can see this extending to any sympathisers, so families and neighbors will deliver believers in Christ up to be killed, Matthew 10:21 KJV “And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up againsttheir parents, and cause them to be put to death.”

What is your position on the above, and also on Revelation 20:4 KJV “And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” We have clear words that saints will be beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, and those who have not worshiped the beast or his image, nor received his mark.

So how can there be saints on the earth during this time, being persecuted by the world, by the beast, dragon, false-prophet, Babylon, beheaded and delivered up if they were taken from the world? I am eager to hear people’s opinions on these areas of scripture. Thanks for your post.
 
Lawlord said:
To expect that you will be taken away before you experience suffering is a selfish belief not borne out by the Word of God. Are you better than the saints who suffer during these times? I'm not directing this at you, but in general.
Click to expand...
So how about those that have gone on before us? Are they somehow diminished because they do not suffer through the GT?.....Or are those who go through the GT more exalted than those who do not?.....Or is it simply a roll of the dice and tough luck for everyone who is here at that time? What possible purpose does it serve to have the Body of Christ go through the GT? Because of our faith and belief in Messiah we already stand righteous before God, to believe we MUST go through the GT begins to sound like works based theology.....that we somehow must prove our faith to God and nothing could be further from the truth.
Daniel 27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. KJ2000
The Time of Jacob's Trouble, the 70th week in Daniel's prophecy deals with the Jews not the Church. No one else is mentioned in this prophecy except the Jews....
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon your people and upon your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. KJ2000
The GT is the final attempt by God to bring his chosen people back to him through Messiah; He already has the Body of Christ, it belongs to Him. The GT is for the Jews not the Church.....
I do have a question though: Are you a proponent of Replacement Theology?
 
Lawlord said:
Greetings,

I have made a 12 minute video discussing this topic. It is part of my 5 part end times summary videos. I cannot post links but it is on my youtube channel godlord21 titled: "The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a False Teaching! BE WARNED!"

I believe the pre-tribulation rapture is not borne out by the Word of God. I feel it ignores the scripture showing us that we will suffer and be hated in these times, war will be made against us, we will be beheaded and killed for the testimony of our word etc. I feel like the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is contributing to lack of preparedness and the falling away in the body of Christ, when the faith of many will fail under persecution and difficulty as they thought they would never suffer.

In this video I display onscreen all of the Word of God I rely on in my interpretation as I discuss this topic, so please read the information in the video as well.

You are welcome to disagree, and have your own interpretations. I am open to discussion and consideration of others points of view and opinions, however, I feel a lot of scripture must be ignored or distorted to accept the belief of the pre-tribulation rapture.

We are told those who are in the light will not be taken as a thief, they will not be sleeping but being awake and aware of the signs (1 Thes 5:1-8). I see the many signs of the impending judgment of the Lord upon the earth.

The Word tells us of the saints suffering under persecution, being hated by all nations, delivered up to death by their families, killed during the first four seals, made war against by the beast, the dragon, the false-prophet, and their blood found in Babylon (Babylon destroyed Rev 18). I cannot rectify these many areas of the Word of God with the belief that all believers will be taken before the tribulation. We are told that not all who say they are believers are true believers (Matthew 7:21-23), we are told the day of the Lord will not come before an apostasy/falling away and the man of sin exalting himself in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Anyway, you are welcome to consider my video. You can read the video description under the video to get a good summary of my main contention here.

I have made this video and other videos on my channel because I felt a lot of the Word of God was being ignored. I am moving according to my feelings and drivings of my spirit. Again you are welcome to have your own opinions/interpretations, I am open to discussion on these topics.

Kind Regards, Christopher
Click to expand...


Yes sir, the pretrib Rapture teaching, is a false teaching.

Here is the main scriptures that anyone can read for themselves, which proves that the pre-trib Rapture doctrine is false.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

The Rapture and Resurrection are One Event that take place at His coming, after the tribulation
The Resurrection occurs a moment before the Rapture.
The Resurrection/Rapture Event takes place at His coming, when Jesus returns to destroy the antichrist.

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


JLB
 
Often around here i read members asking things like " who was this written to"

1Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
I guess this is one of those time when it does not matter who the letter was addressed to ,.

PS my view is post trib..
 
After having been exposed to "tribulation" theories for 3 decades plus I've learned to avoid paranoid delusional fear mongering. It's NOT beneficial to faith in Christ whatsoever. I've seen enough pre trib believers come and go into the grave at this point and saw what a waste of time that mindset is, or any of the other postures for that matter.

We watch, we wait. End of conversation comes at Phil. 3:21 or our death, whichever happens to be sooner, which for every believer up to this moment has been observation number one.

Life and survival has enough fear without adding to it. We should understand that a lot of preachers make a living by fear mongering. Don't be a pawn.
 
Lawlord said:
So what is your view on all these passages of scripture describing the suffering and martyrdom of the saints? Do you say this does not happen? How can the saints be raptured away before the tribulation if these saints are on the earth during this time? I would like to hear your opinion on this. Do you say there are two sets of saints? Or do you say this scripture will not happen? I'm confused with the pre-trib position on these verses.
Click to expand...
If the rapture happened tonight, 100's of millions of people vanishing without a trace, you don't think that every Christian church in the world would, within 24 hours, have their doors open and be filled to overflowing?....and the message would be the same: "We missed the last free train to heaven" and with the Church taken out of the way there will literally be Hell on earth and Matthew 10:22 will become a reality:
22 And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved. KJ2000
 
civilwarbuff said:
If the rapture happened tonight, 100's of millions of people vanishing without a trace, you don't think that every Christian church in the world would, within 24 hours, have their doors open and be filled to overflowing?....and the message would be the same: "We missed the last free train to heaven" and with the Church taken out of the way there will literally be Hell on earth and Matthew 10:22 will become a reality:
22 And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved. KJ2000
Click to expand...

If the rapture happened tonight, nobody would vanish, because nobody is looking. If the rapture would have happen last fall, who would have known? They were all more interested in politics and Trump than they were the Spirit of Christ.
 
ezrider said:
If the rapture happened tonight, nobody would vanish, because nobody is looking. If the rapture would have happen last fall, who would have known? They were all more interested in politics and Trump than they were the Spirit of Christ.
Click to expand...
?
Not sure what that has to do with what we are discussing here.....
 
I have amended the video title on my youtube video to "All Believers Taken" In The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a False Teaching! BE WARNED! for the following reason:

As Rev (3:8-10) says, the Lord will keep true believers from the trial that comes upon the world. There is Word that says this can be delivering them from evil (2 Peter 2:8-9, Lot being delivered from the trials of destruction of Soddom and Gomorrah by warning), and the Lord prays to His Father we not be taken from the earth but be kept from evil (John 17:15), but I cannot say ABSOLUTELY the Lord won't take true believers from the earth. I don't believe I will be taken from the earth, but I can't say for certain others wont be. If the Lord wants to take true believers who have served Him well from the earth I will be all too glad.

As such, if the Lord decides to do so, I cannot say the Lord is false or lying if He decides to do so, thus I MUST amend the title of my video. The content of my video, and the discussion still stands, but the certainty of my stating the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is a FALSEHOOD only applies to the belief that all believers will be taken from the earth before tribulation. This is blatantly FALSE and is a FALSE TEACHING.

However, the Lord can keep true believers from the trials (Rev 3:8-10) in whatever way HE CHOOSES TO DO SO. I cannot say with certainty the way the Lord will do so, thus I had to amend my video title and description. I apologise for any misunderstandings or problems this may have caused. I want to be accurate and faithful to God's Word. But I also cannot assert absolute certainties where there are uncertainties. This is the reason for my editing of the video title and description, and though my discussion still stands I must curtail it to what I know is a certain falsehood, and not say that something is impossible where it MAY be possible. I hope you understand. Thank you, Christopher



Civilwarbuff - That statement was in the context of my entire paragraph and the scripture I quoted. I'm not saying believers in Christ are diminished for not going through the tribulation. I am not saying those who go through the GT are greater or more exalted than those who do not. I am saying that I believe these times are upon us, and from my reading of the Word I see in many places the saints are suffering on earth during the tribulation. I don't assume myself greater than them, so I don't assume that I'm going to be taken from the earth. Is it possible the Lord can take us from the earth (Rev 3:10)? Yes. But there is purpose in having true believers on earth during the GT. One is that there is more to bring others to the faith in those times and I'm sure there are other roles. I'm not saying our faith is contingent upon going through the GT. I said that I believe we will be on the earth but protected from evil by the Lord. Even so, many will be killed, beheaded etc, martyred for their faith, which is glorifying God. The Lord knows the true believers so He CAN take them from the earth before the GT if He decides to do so. I think the belief that all believers will be taken from the earth before the GT is a damaging one. Maybe the true believers will be taken, but does everyone assume they will be taken away and not prepare themselves with the Word of what is coming? There will be many people who will be on the earth, even if there is a pre-trib rapture, that will wonder why they are still on the earth and be in suffering, may blame God that they weren't taken away and renounce God. In this way I see that belief as damaging.
 
civilwarbuff said:
?
Not sure what that has to do with what we are discussing here.....
Click to expand...

It very much has to do with what your discussing here. You are discussing the rapture and the coming of Christ. But who is LOOKING for his coming. How would you if He already came in the rapture? Seems to be most of the people that comment here are more interested in praising Trump, condemning liberals and glorifying sin. You look to the world, but the world can not see His coming.
 
civilwarbuff said:
If the rapture happened tonight, 100's of millions of people vanishing without a trace, you don't think that every Christian church in the world would, within 24 hours, have their doors open and be filled to overflowing?....and the message would be the same: "We missed the last free train to heaven" and with the Church taken out of the way there will literally be Hell on earth and Matthew 10:22 will become a reality:
22 And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved. KJ2000
Click to expand...


Please explain how their would be one Christian left on earth after the Rapture, when all Christians, both those who have died previously, and those who are alive and remain, will both be caught up together, to be with the Lord?

the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17


The Lord will come from Heaven to earth, specifically Jerusalem, and gather all His people together unto Himself, in the air, on His way down, in which He will destroy the antichrist.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8



JLB
 
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