The Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

[JLB]

"All Believers Taken"

 

[JLB]

but the world can not see His coming.

Every eye will see Him!

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7

and again

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

All the world will see Him, and they will mourn when they do.



JLB

 

[ezrider]

Every eye will see Him!

John 14:15-20
If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; him whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.


Post all the scriptures you want to the contrary, but you can not change the promise of Christ. He will come to you in the rapture, but the world cannot see it. If you look to the world, then you will not receive it. Do you not see Christ? Is the Spirit of truth not in you that you should look to another coming?

All the world will see Him, and they will mourn when they do.

They will be mourning as the lake of fire appears.

 

[JLB]

Even the Spirit of truth; him whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This is concerning the Holy Spirit.

Do you "see" the Holy Spirit?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Post all the scriptures you want to the contrary, but you can not change the promise of Christ. He will come to you in the rapture, but the world cannot see it. If you look to the world, then you will not receive it. Do you not see Christ? Is the Spirit of truth not in you that you should look to another coming?

Jesus Christ will come bodily as He left, and was seen leaving.

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:9-11

• while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
• This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

However, we do not see the Spirit of Christ within us, nor do we see Jesus bodily.

whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:8-9

• When He comes we will see Him.

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2



JLB

 

[ezrider]

This is concerning the Holy Spirit.

Do you "see" the Holy Spirit?


JLB

I don't need to "see" the Holy Spirit to know he dwells in me. To physically "see" would stand in direct opposition to that which is given by Faith, whose very definition by the scriptures is the substance of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of THINGS NOT SEEN. I do not need to "see" the Holy Spirit when both the Father and the Son bear record of His presence.

 

[civilwarbuff]

How would you if He already came in the rapture?

100's of millions of people inexplicably disappear and what, you think no one would notice because they are too busy talking about politics? C'mon.....

You look to the world, but the world can not see His coming.

I will assume you are using the word 'you' in the plural sense since I look to the world for very little. No one will see him coming, it will be as a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I write unto you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 You are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that are drunk are drunk in the night.
Even attempting to take these verses literally and not metaphorically we still have no idea when the "thief" will strike; we can only watch and wait......unless you have some info the rest of us don't?

 

[civilwarbuff]

I said that I believe we will be on the earth but protected from evil by the Lord. Even so, many will be killed, beheaded etc, martyred for their faith, which is glorifying God. The Lord knows the true believers so He CAN take them from the earth before the GT if He decides to do so.

Believers will be protected from evil but will be martyred. You do realize you are seriously contradicting yourself here?

 

[Douglas Summers]

I believe the pre-tribulation rapture is not borne out by the Word of God.

Be careful what we think and do not understand, and teaching it as doctrine. Scripture is not for private interpretation. We will be responsible unto the Lord for what we teach. Teacher / pastor is a calling and gift of the Holy Ghost. (1 Corinthians chapter 12) Not self will.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I think the belief that all believers will be taken from the earth before the GT is a damaging one. Maybe the true believers will be taken, but does everyone assume they will be taken away and not prepare themselves with the Word of what is coming? There will be many people who will be on the earth, even if there is a pre-trib rapture, that will wonder why they are still on the earth and be in suffering, may blame God that they weren't taken away and renounce God. In this way I see that belief as damaging.

Please explain how their would be one Christian left on earth after the Rapture, when all Christians, both those who have died previously, and those who are alive and remain, will both be caught up together, to be with the Lord?

As I noted above, the day after the Rapture the churches will be full to bursting. Does anyone here really believe that everyone who attends church, even though they have heard the Gospel many time, is really member of the Body of Christ?.....that there is not such thing as pretenders in church? Is anyone here not aware of people who at one time professed belief but have since fallen away? And you wonder where the 'new' Christians would come from after the 'old' Christians are raptured? There are trained pastors out in the world who have never truly believed; they just did a job.....so yeah, there will be plenty of Christians on earth after the rapture which will be too bad.

 

[ezrider]

100's of millions of people inexplicably disappear and what, you think no one would notice because they are too busy talking about politics? C'mon.....

Well that might be because NO ONE DISAPPEARS.

They only remain HIDDEN.

 

[civilwarbuff]

They only remain HIDDEN.

?
Unless you mean they keep their heads down and pretend they are not Christians?

 

[ezrider]

?
Unless you mean they keep their heads down and pretend they are not Christians?

???

If they are HIDDEN IN CHRIST, why would they need to keep their heads down and pretend? If they are IN CHRIST, there is NO MORE PRETENDING.

So No, they do not disappear, they remain hidden in Christ, a new living creation, formed by the Spirit, hidden behind a covering of death until the glory of the Lord should be made known.

 

[civilwarbuff]

???

If they are HIDDEN IN CHRIST, why would they need to keep their heads down and pretend? If they are IN CHRIST, there is NO MORE PRETENDING.

So No, they do not disappear, they remain hidden in Christ, a new living creation, formed by the Spirit, hidden behind a covering of death until the glory of the Lord should be made known.

I believe you are talking at a tangent; this is a thread on pre-trib rapture not remaining hidden with Christ in God (Col 3:3).
You might want to start a separate thread on it.

 

[ezrider]

I believe you are talking at a tangent; this is a thread on pre-trib rapture not remaining hidden with Christ in God (Col 3:3).
You might want to start a separate thread on it.

Actually, according to the title of this tread and the OP, the subject is about the false teaching of the "pre-trib" rapture. Is it Not?
Well since the subject is about the rapture, pre, mid, post, it doesn't really matter. The subject that mattered was that of the false teaching. Therefore I am not talking at a tangent. I am talking of the Spirit of Lord present and forever dwelling with us, not the false teaching about flying away and disappearing. Those teachings are fairy tails.

The Spirit of the Lord does not come and make you disappear. He comes so that you might be conformed into the image of Christ, into the image of His Son. But we get to experience this right here in our earthen vessels. So instead of debating whether we "disappear" before, during or after. Maybe we should rethink the whole false teaching of the rapture doctrine and flying away, and learn what it means to walk according to the Spirit, surrounded be such a cloud of witnesses.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Whatever......

 

[ezrider]

Whatever......

Hey, now we can agree on something!

But you said 100's of millions disappearing wouldn't be missed??? Were do you come up with hundreds of millions. Scripture says straight is the way and narrow the path, and few there be that find it. But how few? 8 souls as in the time of Noah. Oh wait, they didn't go anywhere, they road out the flood in a boat. Perhaps it's the 7,000 who have not bowed a knee to the image of Baal. Maybe it's the 144,000 gathered of each of the tribes.

I propose that yesterday, 144,000 people in this world passed away. How many of them do you miss?

 

[Lawlord]

Believers will be protected from evil but will be martyred. You do realize you are seriously contradicting yourself here?

Be careful what we think and do not understand, and teaching it as doctrine. Scripture is not for private interpretation. We will be responsible unto the Lord for what we teach. Teacher / pastor is a calling and gift of the Holy Ghost. (1 Corinthians chapter 12) Not self will.

As I noted above, the day after the Rapture the churches will be full to bursting. Does anyone here really believe that everyone who attends church, even though they have heard the Gospel many time, is really member of the Body of Christ?.....that there is not such thing as pretenders in church? Is anyone here not aware of people who at one time professed belief but have since fallen away? And you wonder where the 'new' Christians would come from after the 'old' Christians are raptured? There are trained pastors out in the world who have never truly believed; they just did a job.....so yeah, there will be plenty of Christians on earth after the rapture which will be too bad.

Civilwarbuff- believers will be protected from evil but will be martyred. This is no contradiction. It is what the Word of God tells us. The only contradiction is the inability to understand.

To die in faith to God is actually a glorious testament of your faith. We are told of believers who will die, Matthew 24:9 KJV “Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.” Revelation 20:4 KJV “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” Also we are told the same in many other areas of scripture. So believers are beheaded for the witness of Jesus (martyred), who had not worshipped the beast. We know the beast/dragon make war against the saints, the false-prophet decrees all who do not receive the mark of the beast, his name, or worship his image will be killed.

So there are several areas that speak of the saints/believers in Christ being martyred. However, we are also told that we will be protected by God. Psalm 91: 1-8 KJV “He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. 2 I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. 3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. 4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. 5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; 6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. 7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. 8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.”

So the Lord says He will protect us, but many will also be martyred. We are told those who keep their faiths unto their deaths will receive the crown of life (Revelation 2:10). 2 Peter 2:4-9 KJV “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:”

So the Lord can deliver the godly from temptations/trials, delivering them from evil. Note that neither Lot or Noah were taken from the earth, but were protected from evil. Psalm 41:2 KJV “The LORD will preserve him, and keep him alive; and he shall be blessed upon the earth: and thou wilt not deliver him unto the will of his enemies.”

However, the Lord will clearly allow many of the saints to be martyred. They will go straight to the Lord upon their deaths. The Lord tells us there is no greater love, John 15:13 KJV “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” But what of laying ones life down for God? This is a great and glorious testimony of your love to God, that you loved God and your faith more than your life, even unto your death. This is not a dishonour or disservice to those who meet this fate. While it will not be enjoyable for them leading up to this and during it, they will be glorified and exalted for their testimony of their love to God. 1 Peter 4:12-16 KJV “Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. 16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.” Those who are beheaded obtain VICTORY over the beast through their deaths. We are told in Matthew 16:24-25 KJV “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.” Even this talks of those who lose their life for the sake of the Lord.

So the Word describes both situations. It is not contradictory that the Lord will protect some from evil while allowing others to be martyred.

Civilwarbuff, you believe that believers in Christ will be raptured before the tribulation. Do you believe all believers in Christ will be raptured? What scriptural evidence do you have that believers will be raptured? I would like to hear it if you want to take the time to write it, up to you. Thanks for your post.

Douglas Summers – I am very well aware of this. Those who teach are held to a higher standard, because they can pose stumbling blocks for others. I am clear in my videos that this is my interpretation, and I use scripture and display scripture with all of my discussion. I have amended my video title because I believe I couldn’t say for sure that true believers could NOT be taken from the earth by the Lord, per Revelation 3:10, as the Lord can deliver them from the trial in whatever way He wants to (protect from evil or take from the earth, though I don't believe the Word tells us this, it IS POSSIBLE), but the belief that all believers will be taken from the earth in the pre-tribulation rapture is blatantly false, and is a false teaching. I would welcome you showing me areas of scripture that prove this will occur. Many saints suffer during the tribulation and are on the earth.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Civilwarbuff- believers will be protected from evil but will be martyred. This is no contradiction. It is what the Word of God tells us. The only contradiction is the inability to understand.

For someone to be martyred they must be killed; last time I checked murder is an act of evil. You are contradicting yourself.

So there are several areas that speak of the saints/believers in Christ being martyred. However, we are also told that we will be protected by God. Psalm 91: 1-8 KJV “He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. 2 I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. 3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. 4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. 5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; 6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. 7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. 8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.”

You do understand that this is David speaking of God, not God making a promise to David?....it is a song of praise (psalm: a sacred sacred song or hymn) to God from David, not a promise from God. It seems as though you are somewhat confused about this.....

Civilwarbuff, you believe that believers in Christ will be raptured before the tribulation. Do you believe all believers in Christ will be raptured? What scriptural evidence do you have that believers will be raptured? I would like to hear it if you want to take the time to write it, up to you. Thanks for your post.

I am not going to post them here as this is not the 1st rodeo for this subject; they have been posted here many times and if you are as familiar with the subject as you claim you already know them. I will be happy to discuss any of them that you disagree with though.
BTW, I am still waiting to hear your reply to my question about you being a proponent of replacement theology......

 

[smaller]

The notions that christians get taken out in a pre-trib rapture has a pretty solid fork stuck in the notion by Peter, right here:

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Certainly seems clear enuf, donut?