The Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

[JLB]

I don't need to "see" the Holy Spirit to know he dwells in me. To physically "see" would stand in direct opposition to that which is given by Faith, whose very definition by the scriptures is the substance of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of THINGS NOT SEEN. I do not need to "see" the Holy Spirit when both the Father and the Son bear record of His presence.

Then why quote a scripture about the world not being able to see the Holy Spirit, as your proof of no one being able to see the Lord Jesus when He comes.

7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,

2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 1 John 3:2-3



JLB

 

[IncredibleTransformation]

Its just a made up teaching to stop people from freaking out on end times scripture and to create a lack of faith by believing The Most High will magically beam them into the sky when times get rough.

Well said.

 

[smaller]

The "great tribulation" proved to be great fodder and very profitable for christian fiction writers.

I should have joined in too. Write enough, that's for sure.

 

[Lawlord]

For someone to be martyred they must be killed; last time I checked murder is an act of evil. You are contradicting yourself.

You do understand that this is David speaking of God, not God making a promise to David?....it is a song of praise (psalm: a sacred sacred song or hymn) to God from David, not a promise from God. It seems as though you are somewhat confused about this.....

I am not going to post them here as this is not the 1st rodeo for this subject; they have been posted here many times and if you are as familiar with the subject as you claim you already know them. I will be happy to discuss any of them that you disagree with though.
BTW, I am still waiting to hear your reply to my question about you being a proponent of replacement theology......

Civilwarbuff – no I am not contradicting myself. As I already showed you in my previous post, there are examples of both in the Word of God. I just presented you with the Word of God, it is up to you if you want to claim that it is contradictory. The Lord has delivered believers in Him throughout the Bible, but many believers in Him have also died. I don’t say in the coming times to expect you will be delivered. I don’t say expect you will be raptured, I say to try your best and keep your faith strong in the Lord until your death, and you will receive the crown of life.

I posted Psalm 91 and Psalm 41:2, not as definitive statements that the Lord will deliver us from evil, but to show that the Lord CAN deliver us from evil. We have scripture saying He can, and also examples of the Lord doing this (Noah, Lot etc.). Refer to above. The Lord can protect us from evil if we are true to Him, He can also choose not to. All things work together for good Romans 8:28. I think I’m departing from my original point anyway. My point is that saints will suffer on the earth. They will be hated by all nations and war will be made against them. They will be hunted and persecuted since they will refuse the mark of the beast. Saints will be martyred, since we have proof from the Word they will be killed and beheaded etc.

I also say that the Lord can protect us from evil. If I said the Lord WILL protect us from evil, I will have to go back on that statement since I do not mean to say the Lord must protect us from death. He does what He wills. The Lord CAN protect us from evil. He has done so for the saints in many different examples, and saints have also died in faith to the Lord in many different examples.

No the church has not replaced Israel in God’s plan. Romans 11:1-2, Romans 11:11-12. By the failure of the Jews to accept Jesus, the gentiles obtained salvation (11:11). However, the Lord’s Word and promise is everlasting. God will not abandon Israel. The UN decree in this area, decreeing forever the land belongs to the Palestinians I believe will not go unanswered. The Word describes many events around Israel/Judea, nations surrounding etc. The holy city will be tread under foot Rev 11:2, the abomination of desolation is setup in Judea, the inhabitants are told to flee into the mountains (Matt 24:15-16). We are told Romans 10:12-13 KJV “For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 11:26-33 says they will be saved and the calling and gifts of God are irrevocable, and they have strong importance in God’s story. They need to repent and come to Jesus Christ. I’m not sure if this entirely answers your question.

Do you have a link to a post of yours where you explain your position? I understand this is something that comes up a lot. I have seen them and I don't agree with them, I was wondering if you had a position different than what I have already seen.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Do you have a link to a post of yours where you explain your position? I understand this is something that comes up a lot. I have seen them and I don't agree with them, I was wondering if you had a position different than what I have already seen.

I dont have anything here though I do on another forum from some time ago. This theme has been beat to death and neither POV is willing to rub out their line in the sand that they have drawn. I usually don't participate in this discussion anymore (just follow in the background) but most of the time people don't start with the statement of 'false teaching' for those that don't agree with the OP. Personally, I don't worry about a rapture as it is something we have no control over; it will happen or not and nothing we say will change it.
But I see the world desiring to have a world without God. The only thing holding that back is the Holy Spirit working through the Body of Christ. If you take the Body of Christ out of the way the world will then get what they want (but more than they bargained for): a world without God. As long as the Church is here, evil is held in abeyance, once we are gone it is hell in a handbasket. That is my view in a nutshell.......

 

[ezrider]

Then why quote a scripture about the world not being able to see the Holy Spirit, as your proof of no one being able to see the Lord Jesus when He comes.

Well let's see? Why quote a scripture that identifies the world not being able to see His coming? Perhaps because you said every eye will see him. Did you forget what you have said? You responded to my comment that the world cannot see his coming, and then you would question why I would quote a scripture supporting that position???????? WOW!!!!!!!


Here, let me give you a little step by step of what was said. Kind of a paint by numbers for those who can't remember, some bread crumbs to lead you along the way.


COMMENT #1:
I said the following.

You look to the world, but the world can not see His coming.

COMMENT #2:
To the which you replied.

Every eye will see Him!

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him

COMMENT #3:
I answered your post with the scripture from John 14 identifying that indeed, the world can not see his coming; and then added a confirming comment.

but the world cannot see it. If you look to the world, then you will not receive it.

COMMENT #4:
You ask why I would post a scripture about the world not being able to see His coming? Well, if you can't connect the dots or remember what was said, go back to COMMENT #1. If your still having difficulties, just try connecting the dots again and again until you get it right.



Also, I might add. In you reply you, JLB, said the following: as your proof of no one being able to see the Lord Jesus when He comes.

Let's get one thing absolutely clear here. I did not sight the scripture as proof of NO ONE being able to see the Lord Jesus when he comes. That is you applying a subtle evil twist to that which was said, and I am calling you out on it. I should expect an apology from you for this behavior. You should know better.

So just to be CLEAR here. THE WORLD CAN NOT SEE HIS COMING, BUT TO THOSE WHO LOOK FOR HIS COMING, HE SHALL APPEAR.

 

[Lawlord]

I dont have anything here though I do on another forum from some time ago. This theme has been beat to death and neither POV is willing to rub out their line in the sand that they have drawn. I usually don't participate in this discussion anymore (just follow in the background) but most of the time people don't start with the statement of 'false teaching' for those that don't agree with the OP. Personally, I don't worry about a rapture as it is something we have no control over; it will happen or not and nothing we say will change it.
But I see the world desiring to have a world without God. The only thing holding that back is the Holy Spirit working through the Body of Christ. If you take the Body of Christ out of the way the world will then get what they want (but more than they bargained for): a world without God. As long as the Church is here, evil is held in abeyance, once we are gone it is hell in a handbasket. That is my view in a nutshell.......

Civilwarbuff - Do you mind pming me a link to the other site I can read more of your position.

That's a fair point of view with regard to the church as the restrainer. However, I feel as if the church is needed on earth during this time. If the church is truly loyal to Jesus Christ and don't deny their fate, their eternities are already sealed. Death means nothing to them.
The most important thing is to save souls, and this is the time of harvest, where calamity is upon the world, and I believe in these times there will be a lot of important work to do for God.

I also believe that dying in faith to Christ glorifies Christ (as we are told there is no greater love than laying ones life down for a friend, let alone laying our lives down for God, our greatest friend!), and suffering glorifies Christ. I believe that we will be upon the earth to counter the immense darkness that is coming. If there was no chuch, then there would be only darkness, and nothing to pull people to the light anymore.
Christ will return and collect those alive when he does, resurrecting those who have died.

Really the only important thing is to hold fast to your faith in Jesus Christ unto your death. I only made this topic because I felt people were not considering the seriousness of what the Word is telling us is coming, and that they aren't preparing themselves to be on the earth. If they aren't prepared they MAY fall away in their faith. I don't want that. I believe I will be on the earth and I want the brethren to stand strong against the coming darkness.

I believe also in this time God will pour our His spirit in ways never seen before, there will be healings, casting out demons etc. Look at the two witnesses of God, God's servants on the earth bringing judgment on the nations and bringing people to God. I'm sure many people are needed for this important mission. If your fate is already sealed in Jesus Christ, then why not try to stay on the earth and bring more souls to God? We are not the targets of his wrath, but I don't believe we will be taken from the earth.

Anyway, I don't say the pre-trib rapture is impossible. I say all believers being taken away is impossible though, considering what I believe is the state of the church, and what the Word says of saints suffering during these times. Thanks for your post..

 

[JLB]

I answered your post with the scripture from John 14 identifying that indeed, the world can not see his coming; and then added a confirming comment.

The scripture that you quote has nothing to do with the coming of the Lord, but rather the Holy Spirit which they would receive.

...the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. John 14:17

You are mixing together two entirely different spiritual concepts, as though they were one thing.


The coming of the Lord refers to His literal coming from heaven to earth, in which He gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, and will destroy the antichrist.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

and again

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8


The word "coming" used in these verse's is Parousia. Strong's G3952 - parousia

1. presence
2. the coming, arrival, advent
   1. the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

His arrival, His presence, His visible return will be so glorious, that the brightness of His presence will destroy the false christ.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.


Every eye will see Him, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn when they see Him coming on the clouds with power and great glory.



JLB

 

[ezrider]

The scripture that you quote has nothing to do with the coming of the Lord, but rather the Holy Spirit which they would receive.

...the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. John 14:17

You are mixing together two entirely different spiritual concepts, as though they were one thing.


The coming of the Lord refers to His literal coming from heaven to earth, in which He gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, and will destroy the antichrist.

John 14:18
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.


What I hear you claiming edited reba to say: is not my understanding of Scripture

 

[JLB]

personal argument


Jesus Christ will come a second time, hence the term "Second Coming" of Christ.

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28



JLB

 

[ezrider]

This has zero to do with the Second Coming of Christ.

This is speaking of the Holy Spirit that they would receive, after Jesus was Crucified.

This has everything to do with His second coming. Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit in HIS NAME. So if the Holy Spirit has come unto you and has made His abode in you, then Jesus has in fact come unto you the "second" time.

I thought the doctrine of the trinity was fundamental to Christian belief. That the three are one and the one is three, But even then, when the scripture said the "WE" shall COME unto him and make our ABODE WITH HIM.

Please show me from my post's whereby I said the Holy Spirit is not real.

edited for violation 2.4 reba .As in, It sounds as if you do not accept the COMING of the HOLY SPIRIT as a "REAL" event that could be considered the second coming.

edited for personal argument reba

 

[JLB]

This has everything to do with His second coming. Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit in HIS NAME. So if the Holy Spirit has come unto you and has made His abode in you, then Jesus has in fact come unto you the "second" time.

I thought the doctrine of the trinity was fundamental to Christian belief. That the three are one and the one is three, But even then, when the scripture said the "WE" shall COME unto him and make our ABODE WITH HIM.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28



Jesus will come and appear to all bodily, as He returns from heaven to earth.


His coming will be so glorious and bright it will destroy the false messiah; the lawless one.

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


The Day of Pentecost is when Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit upon His people.


The Holy Spirit is invisible, in which those who receive Him do so with evidence that can be seen or heard.

33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33



JLB

 

[JLB]

This is called a Strawman:

Example:

Strawman
You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.
By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate.

Example: After Will said that we should put more money into health and education, Warren responded by saying that he was surprised that Will hates our country so much that he wants to leave it defenseless by cutting military spending.



JLB

 

[reba]

Closed for some more clean up..

 

[reba]

Please remember to keep the postings from going personal.. do not reply to this post in this thread...

 

[ezrider]

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28



Jesus will come and appear to all bodily, as He returns from heaven to earth.

That is not what the scripture from Hebrews declares. It does not say he shall appear bodily all bodily. In fact, it doesn't say he shall appear bodily, nor does it say he shall appear to all. The scriptures when plainly read ONLY says he shall appear to those who look for his coming, and that his coming is apart from sin unto salvation.

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

There is no mention in that passage of a bodily appearance that all the world shall see. Only that he shall appear the second time to those who look for Him.

It is the Holy Spirit who comes to those who look for His appearance without sin unto salvation. But the world does not look for his coming, nor can they see it.

He appeared once bodily to bear the sins of many, He appears the second time by His Spirit, without sin, unto salvation, just as He Promised that He would.

John 14:15-20
If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

 

[JLB]

That is not what the scripture from Hebrews declares. It does not say he shall appear bodily all bodily. In fact, it doesn't say he shall appear bodily, nor does it say he shall appear to all. The scriptures when plainly read ONLY says he shall appear to those who look for his coming, and that his coming is apart from sin unto salvation.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

Actually it says those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time apart from sin... for salvation.

He will appear to all.

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7

Those who have rejected Him will mourn, as He will not appear to them for salvation, but everlasting punishment.

Those who eagerly wait for Him, He will appear to them for salvation.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30


Everyone will see Him, as the brightness of His glory will destroy the lawless one.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. Zechariah 12:9-11



JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

That is not what the scripture from Hebrews declares. It does not say he shall appear bodily all bodily.

Maybe not in Hebrews, But it does in Revelation
Revelation 1:7 reads:

Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

 

[ezrider]

Maybe not in Hebrews, But it does in Revelation
Revelation 1:7 reads:

Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

I agree Douglas, Rev 1:7 read every eye shall see him. But I am not talking about Rev 1:7. The first thing I would ask is what does Rev 1:7 have to do with Hebrews 9:28? These are not the same. I think some of the doctrines and traditions of men try to make them the same. But I just can not accept that any longer.

Hebrew 9:28 is about His appearance without sin unto salvation to the Glory of God for those who look for His coming.
Revelation 1:7 is not an appearance unto salvation, but one of shame, and the peoples of the earth will mourn. We don't even need to discuss those who pierced him in this context. At this coming they shall find the door shut.

Perhaps you would comment on the scriptures from John 14:15-20. Do you count the coming of he Holy Spirit as a real event that can be seen as the second coming of Christ (Spirit sent in His Name) without sin unto salvation. If not, then why when the only unforgivable sin is denying the Holy Spirit? Is not the Holy Spirit considered part of the trinity? Do we discard the significance of the coming of the Holy Spirit into our hearts, that we must look to and wait for the appearance of the image of a man that we might worship? Somewhere in the law, that would be considered worshiping an idol.

.

 

[JLB]

Hebrew 9:28 is about His appearance without sin unto salvation to the Glory of God for those who look for His coming.

Jesus will appear a second time.

He appeared the first time and was seen.

26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Hebrews 9:26-28

The context dictates that just as He was not invisible, and appeared the first time, He will also appear a second time.

The word appear carries itself as such.

Appear - Strong's G3700 - optanomai

1. to look at, behold
2. to allow one's self to be seen, to appear
   

The seconding coming of Christ will be visible, not invisible, and will be seen by all.

• To those who have rejected Him - Mourning, as He will appear for their judgement of punishment.
• To those who eagerly await for Him - He will appear for salvation.

JLB