[_ Old Earth _] The problem with accepting Christianity and Evolution

[tomstell]

I think that relying entirely on scripture is rather problematic, seeing as we know that The Bible was wrong about Creation/Evolution. And has makes many statements on moralit which seem a little "dodgy".

Note: I am not saying that Christain Tradition is wrong, just that it seems to be very problematic. The more we discover, it seems, the more holes we find.

 

[Solo]

So then...........

Those of us that hold scripture as truth and infallible given by the creator of the natural disagree with those that hold scripture as fallible and false in various and specific areas written by man without inspiration from a god.

Times are no different today and each of us will know the truth after each of our alloted time is up in this natural existance. (Those of us who have an eternal soul that is).

No one in the scientific field can prove a thing concerning the spiritual realm. Why? Because, as the Bible says, man is spiritually dead until God quickens each one through the born-of-the-Spirit process. Only those that have been born-of-the-Spirit can see and hear the spiritual truths.

No one on this forum can prove me wrong on this, they will only be able to mock, ridicule, attack, disagree, provide logical fallacies, etc., but no one can prove me wrong.

I love the fact that God almighty is so much more intelligent than the most intelligent human that has ever breathed a breath of God-given air.

 

[Lewis]

God set a system in place, even though He knows what is going on in the universe, at any given time, He does not have to get involved with the systems day, to day, operation, but through devine intervention, He does from time to time, but He set His system up to take care of itself. But as He see's fit and for certain reasons, He will commit acts of devine intervention and do all kinds of things with His created system of things, as He has proven in the Bible.

 

[Cameron]

I don't think the Garden of Eden was built on a pile of dead things.

Death entered the time/space-continuum as a result of the Fall.

Sure there had to be some sort of natural entropy that was not death to man and animals. We can not possibly imagine it for we do not know how things can live forever, except in the resored relationship with our Creator through Christ.

 

[keebs]

Why would an all-loving God bother with a process that, by its nature, promotes rivalry, killing and contempt?

Why would an all-loving God flood the earth and allow 10,000 african children to die of poverty everyday? And besides, evolution doesn't promote rivalry, killing, or contempt...it merely says that organisms best suited for their enviroment are more likely to survive and produce more offspring than those that aren't as well suited.

 

[Cameron]

Why would an all-loving God flood the earth and allow 10,000 african children to die of poverty everyday?

Why does an all loving God allow anybody into Heaven?

he didn't cause the problem.

He didn't create evil.

Evil is only a possibility of free-will. Man made that happen.

Free-will exists so that love is real.

God did try it other ways before.

Direct intervention and direct Presence could not be denied to Israel in the wilderness. Did it help? No.

God let people live upwards to 1,000 years before the Flood. Did it help them seek Him more? No.

God sent His only Son to earth to pay the penalty we created and to try and resore the relationship with the people chosen to usher in the Messiah. Did that help? Yes and No. Those who were supposed to look for Him killed Him. Yes, becuase we now have a way to restore the relationship through Christ's perfect life and perfect sacrifice.

Do you think God hates that 10,000 kids die in Africa each day. Yes.

Do you think that Christian missionaries have been called to try an address that problem and their spiritual state. yes, I know some.

You can help them too. A good way to start is with supporting one of these kids through Compassion International. I do.

Be Jesus' hands and feet.

 

[keebs]

He didn't create evil.

Really? Where did it come from then? Are you saying that it's possible for things to exist that weren't created by a God and that God has no power to stop?

Evil is only a possibility of free-will. Man made that happen.

Free-will exists so that love is real.

What makes you think that humans have free-will?

God did try it other ways before.

Direct intervention and direct Presence could not be denied to Israel in the wilderness. Did it help? No.

God let people live upwards to 1,000 years before the Flood. Did it help them seek Him more? No.

So, instead of healing the sick and dying, stopping murderers and thieves, and allowing people to see His greatness through other extreme acts of love, he decided to kill them. What a cop-out.

Do you think God hates that 10,000 kids die in Africa each day. Yes.

Really? I haven't seen anything that would say that God hates the fact that all of those children are dying, in fact, it would seem that he likes it because he's allowing it.

Do you think that Christian missionaries have been called to try an address that problem and their spiritual state. yes, I know some.

And I know alot of non-Christians that are trying to address that problem. What's your point?

You can help them too. A good way to start is with supporting one of these kids through Compassion International. I do.

I do, through the Christian Children's Fund (although I'm not a Christian. I don't really care about someone's religious preference when it comes to issues like this, as long I'm helping someone who needs help).

 

[Quath]

He didn't create evil.

1. God created everything.
2. Evil exists.
3. Therefore God created evil.

(Not that i believe the above, but that seems to be what Christianity says.)

Evil is only a possibility of free-will. Man made that happen.

Free-will exists so that love is real.

God did try it other ways before.

Does God have free will? Does He do evil? If so, then it is possible to have free will and never do evil.

If God is perfect and does no evil, how does He create being that do evil? Either perfection makes imperfection or good makes evil.

Quath

 

[Solo]

Why would an all-loving God bother with a process that, by its nature, promotes rivalry, killing and contempt?

Why would an all-loving God flood the earth and allow 10,000 african children to die of poverty everyday? And besides, evolution doesn't promote rivalry, killing, or contempt...it merely says that organisms best suited for their enviroment are more likely to survive and produce more offspring than those that aren't as well suited.

Evolution must surely be true then, since 10000 african children die of poverty every day; it must mean that those "organisms" are not best suited for their environment since they don't survive. Those "offspring" must not be "as well suited."

Of course you have the mind of God and know all things, such as the eternity of those that die on this earth and the judgment of all beings?

 

[keebs]

Evolution must surely be true then, since 10000 african children die of poverty every day; it must mean that those "organisms" are not best suited for their environment since they don't survive. Those "offspring" must not be "as well suited."

Not true. Humans evolved as a social animal, and we're not capable of surviving on our own for the first few years of our lives. The 10,000 african children die because they are not taken care of in their early years, not because they aren't as well suited to their enviroment. However, many Africans have "evolved" what is know as sickle-cell anemia, and it has allowed many people to live longer lives than normal over in Africa. Sickle-cell anemia may be a problem over here in a developed country where malaria is not a problem, but over in Africa it significantly helps increase ones life. However, it's not a cure for poverty. Until Africans start popping out fully developed adults (which won't happen), or developed countries start sending over significant aid, the children in Africa will continue to die of poverty.

 

[Solo]

Evolution must surely be true then, since 10000 african children die of poverty every day; it must mean that those "organisms" are not best suited for their environment since they don't survive. Those "offspring" must not be "as well suited."

Not true. Humans evolved as a social animal, and we're not capable of surviving on our own for the first few years of our lives. The 10,000 african children die because they are not taken care of in their early years, not because they aren't as well suited to their enviroment. However, many Africans have "evolved" what is know as sickle-cell anemia, and it has allowed many people to live longer lives than normal over in Africa. Sickle-cell anemia may be a problem over here in a developed country where malaria is not a problem, but over in Africa it significantly helps increase ones life. However, it's not a cure for poverty. Until Africans start popping out fully developed adults (which won't happen), or developed countries start sending over significant aid, the children in Africa will continue to die of poverty.

Then your earlier post quoted below was wrong. You have just claimed to believe both sides of the coin. Interesting.

And besides, evolution doesn't promote rivalry, killing, or contempt...it merely says that organisms best suited for their enviroment are more likely to survive and produce more offspring than those that aren't as well suited.

 

[keebs]

Then your earlier post quoted below was wrong. You have just claimed to believe both sides of the coin. Interesting.

I didn't claim both sides of anything. I even said that if africans started popping out fully grown adults instead of babies then they death rate would be lower. However, that's not going to happen. You have to wait for the right mutation to occur before it can propagate throughout a population and help the population become better suited to the enviroment. Your genes don't just sit back and intelligently change themselves to suit the enviroment.

 

[Sleeker]

Then your earlier post quoted below was wrong. You have just claimed to believe both sides of the coin. Interesting.

That's like calling 9/11 a case of evolution by saying that because since the terrorists had a weapon (a plane that others around didn't have), they are more evolved than us.

(Relation: Westerners have food, which some African regions don't have, so Westerners are more evolved?)

 

[Solo]

I am glad to see that you evolutionist types finally admit that evolution is no more in effect as it concerns humans. That is step one, now perhaps you all can admit to not having any evidence for one celled creatures evolving into four footed creatures, or creatures with no eyes evolving into creatures with eyes. There is hope for you souls yet!

 

[Quath]

I am glad to see that you evolutionist types finally admit that evolution is no more in effect as it concerns humans. That is step one, now perhaps you all can admit to not having any evidence for one celled creatures evolving into four footed creatures, or creatures with no eyes evolving into creatures with eyes. There is hope for you souls yet!

Evolution works on longer timescales for the most part. Plagues and natural disasters can make it happen quickly, but for gradual improvements, you need timescales in theorder of thousands of years. Our technology changes faster than that, so for the most part humanity is not fully working in the evolutionary timescale.

If we lost all our technology, we would be subject to evolution again. people with bad eyesight would die easier. These genes would die out pretty quickly. And so on...

Quath

 

[Solo]

I am glad to see that you evolutionist types finally admit that evolution is no more in effect as it concerns humans. That is step one, now perhaps you all can admit to not having any evidence for one celled creatures evolving into four footed creatures, or creatures with no eyes evolving into creatures with eyes. There is hope for you souls yet!

Evolution works on longer timescales for the most part. Plagues and natural disasters can make it happen quickly, but for gradual improvements, you need timescales in theorder of thousands of years. Our technology changes faster than that, so for the most part humanity is not fully working in the evolutionary timescale.

If we lost all our technology, we would be subject to evolution again. people with bad eyesight would die easier. These genes would die out pretty quickly. And so on...

Quath

Then man has evolved into his own God saying what goes and what doesn't, and uneffected by the theory of evolution. Great. Now all he has to do is overcome his nature, and figure out a way to conquer death while ignoring the creator that unbelievers pray there isn't.

 

[Sleeker]

Then man has evolved into his own God saying what goes and what doesn't, and uneffected by the theory of evolution.

Human brains are becoming more and more complex and useful. That is evolution.

Great. Now all he has to do is overcome his nature, and figure out a way to conquer death while ignoring the creator that unbelievers pray there isn't.

Well, if that isn't a case of saying something with no base in fact to just put the opposing viewpoint in a negative light, I don't know what is.

 

[Karma2Grace]

Evolution works on longer timescales for the most part. Plagues and natural disasters can make it happen quickly, but for gradual improvements, you need timescales in the order of thousands of years.

This is a escaping statement, Evolutionist making experiments on Fruit Flies for the past 25 years (It is like a Millions of Years for it's time span) but nothing new, Ended up mass killing those species. All they observed was Micro Evolution which is there in Genesis chapter 1!

Our technology changes faster than that, so for the most part humanity is not fully working in the evolutionary timescale.

This posses an interesting question, If you were to go 7000 years back, You will see man using simple tools and stones but today we are more sophisticated , Even we can clone people ! , Some group claims themselves as gods!! , It is like 90 Degree Growth

According to Evolution, Homo sapiens (Full Man) where present for last 200,000 years (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 122209.htm ) but the so called "Man" NEVER evolved until 7000 years before !, Pretty strange isn't ? , For almost 193,000 Years man lived like an Ape Or using stones and sticks! What make them to throw their sticks and stones to clone people?

It make more sense when bible says, Human race is just 10,000 Years (approx) old.

Thanks

 

[ThinkerMan]

According to Evolution, Homo sapiens (Full Man) where present for last 200,000 years (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 122209.htm ) but the so called "Man" NEVER evolved until 7000 years before !, Pretty strange isn't ? , For almost 193,000 Years man lived like an Ape Or using stones and sticks! What make them to throw their sticks and stones to clone people?

Assuming all life has only been around for 7000 years, why hadn't Gorillas learned sign-language for the last 6,900 years?

They had the potential to learn sign-language, although they have not done so until we taught them.

Similarly, human knowledge is based on education and the passing on of information. Over time, the amount and quality of the information we could pass along increased as our language, writing and societies became more effective.

If you went back a few ten thousand years, and plucked one a baby "stick and stone" thrower out of time and brought him here, he has all the genetic potential to got to Harvard and do differential equations.

The capacity for knowledge is different than knowledge itself.

You use the word "evolved" in a physical sense, which is wrong. The "advancement" of man has been in retention of knowledge as a society, not in terms of any biological or genetic sense (at least not significantly).

 

[Quath]

This is a escaping statement, Evolutionist making experiments on Fruit Flies for the past 25 years (It is like a Millions of Years for it's time span) but nothing new, Ended up mass killing those species. All they observed was Micro Evolution which is there in Genesis chapter 1!

Science does not distinguish between micro and macro evolution. If you accept micro evolution and given enough time, you get macro evolution.

Quath