The Process Of Justification

[dadof10]

I believe justification is a process, not a one time event, and I think the example of Abraham proves this view. No one will deny he was justified (declared/made righteous) in Gen. 15:6 when he "believed God...". But I believe he was justified in Gen. 12 also, which proves justification is a process.

"So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran." (Gen. 12:4 KJV)

Kinda hard to see that this obedient, trusting act would actually justify him, but it did, beyond a doubt. Just as we find in the NT that the obedient faith Abraham had is what justified him in Gen. 15 (Rom. 4), we find in the NT that the faith he showed in Gen. 12 actually justified him also. We see it in Heb. 11.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report." (Heb. 11:1-2 KJV)

Here, the author groups together all the men he is about to mention as "the elders", and they are all obtaining the same "good report". I don't think this can be denied. Here is verse 2 in the RSV:

"For by it the men of old received divine approval."

They are all obtaining the same "divine approval" for the faith they had. What is this "good report" or "approval"? Next verse:

"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh." (Heb. 11:4 KJV)

In the RSV:

"By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he received approval as righteous, God bearing witness by accepting his gifts; he died, but through his faith he is still speaking."

We see that the "good report" or the "divine approval", that ALL "the elders" or "men of old" received, is righteousness. That's what the author means by "divine approval", and all of them "received" it (v.2). I don't think this can be denied either. "By faith", the same faith that is being described in verse 1, Abel "received approval as righteous." We can infer that when the author says "by faith" throughout the chapter, it is the same "kind" of faith mentioned here, unless there is a reason to think it's been changed.

"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." (Heb 11:7 KJV)

In the RSV:

"By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, took heed and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; by this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness which comes by faith."

Noah is "an heir of righteousness" so righteousness is being passed on, so to speak, through faith to all the "men of old". I don't think there is any doubt that "righteousness" that is "approved" by God, is at the heart of Hebrews 11. Here are two examples of "men of old", who received righteousness (justification) by an obedient faith, when they "showed" their faith by their good works. Abel, when he offered God his sacrifice. Noah, when he constructed the ark. Next verse:

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." (Heb. 11:8 KJV)

Here we have another example of obedient, trusting faith, the faith that justifies. The author of Hebrews says that Abel "received approval as righteous" by the faith he showed. Noah was "an heir of righteousness" by the faith he showed. Therefore, Abraham, and all the other "men of old" mentioned, received righteousness by the faith they showed as well.

I think it would be a ridiculous, a'priori assumption to say that Abel and Noah were "declared righteous" when they showed their obedient, trusting faith, but Abraham was not when he showed his. There is no textual reason to believe that the "kind" of faith changed from Abel and Noah to Abraham. It's the same kind of faith. I believe all the men and women mentioned in Heb. 11 were justified by this obedient, trusting faith. That's the point of Heb. 11, to show that it was always obedient faith that justified, not "works of the law" or nationality (being an obedient Jew), which was what the "Judaizers" were claiming and what a lot of Paul's letters were in reference to.

This means that Abraham was justified in Gen. 12, then again in Gen. 15, therefore justification (being made/declared righteous) is a process, not a one time event.

 

[Drew]

Anyone who reads my posts may know that I am a big fan of NT Wright. Here is his take on "justification". As you will see, his answer is that it's not a process per se, but rather that it has a "now" and "future" aspect:

1. Covenant. Justification is the covenant declaration, which will be issued on the last day, in which the true people of God will be vindicated and those who insist on worshipping false gods will be shown to be in the wrong.
2. Law court. Justification functions like the verdict in the law court: by acquitting someone, it confers on that person the status ‘righteous.’ This is the forensic dimension of the future covenantal vindication.
3. Eschatology. This declaration, this verdict, is ultimately to be made at the end of history. Through Jesus, however, God has done in the middle of history what He had been expected to do – and, indeed, will still do – at the end; so that the declaration, the verdict, can be issued already in the present, in anticipation. The events of the last days were anticipated when Jesus died on the cross, as the representative Messiah of Israel, and rose again. The verdict of the last day is therefore now also anticipated in the present, whenever someone believes in the gospel message about Jesus.
4. Therefore – all who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ are already demarcated as members of the true family of Abraham, with their sins being forgiven.1

 

[smaller]

Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

When James spoke of justification by deeds, he was not addressing only the man justifiying himself, but The Holy Spirit, working in such. The Spirit does not "lose" or "gain" justification, but has it, eternally.

James 2:
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

There is no "stand alone" person in faith, making their own justification. A person in faith is in Christ, and Christ in them, fully completely justified by Him, in Him.

This does not however address the contrary side of the ledgers, which we all still bear in our flesh, that can never be justified, until we have the change of our vile body. Phil. 3:21. Abraham showed his faith in God, being able, even to raise the dead.

Do we not bear the same hope? Who is the dead?

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

A dead man has no need to seek his own justification. There is none to be found anyway. He has the justification of Christ, hidden in him. And technically some of this is shown into the world, by works.

It's unlikely that any believer hasn't done "good" works. Seeking to eternally condemn another believer over works, is not a good work. It derides the justification of Christ in them. We should always lift, as He Lifted us, and not condemn. If we seek condemnation, then we should look only to ourselves. And we will find plenty to observe in our own temple, without having to worry about the supposed ill eternal fates of other believers. That is all supposition.

Christ will be entirely sufficient of Himself, for all that have called upon Him. Whether another might believe that nor not is only their own problem, seeing such as "alone" or "freestanding" when that is not the case. God in Christ Stands for them as well.

Romans 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

 

[dadof10]

Anyone who reads my posts may know that I am a big fan of NT Wright. Here is his take on "justification". As you will see, his answer is that it's not a process per se, but rather that it has a "now" and "future" aspect:

1. Covenant. Justification is the covenant declaration, which will be issued on the last day, in which the true people of God will be vindicated and those who insist on worshipping false gods will be shown to be in the wrong.
2. Law court. Justification functions like the verdict in the law court: by acquitting someone, it confers on that person the status ‘righteous.’ This is the forensic dimension of the future covenantal vindication.
3. Eschatology. This declaration, this verdict, is ultimately to be made at the end of history. Through Jesus, however, God has done in the middle of history what He had been expected to do – and, indeed, will still do – at the end; so that the declaration, the verdict, can be issued already in the present, in anticipation. The events of the last days were anticipated when Jesus died on the cross, as the representative Messiah of Israel, and rose again. The verdict of the last day is therefore now also anticipated in the present, whenever someone believes in the gospel message about Jesus.
4. Therefore – all who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ are already demarcated as members of the true family of Abraham, with their sins being forgiven.1

Do you think this "verdict" can be revoked (oh no, that word again ) by the "justified" person, or that once declared/made righteous, that verdict is forever?

 

[dadof10]

Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

When James spoke of justification by deeds, he was not addressing only the man justifiying himself, but The Holy Spirit, working in such. The Spirit does not "lose" or "gain" justification, but has it, eternally.

James 2:
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

There is no "stand alone" person in faith, making their own justification. A person in faith is in Christ, and Christ in them, fully completely justified by Him, in Him.

This does not however address the contrary side of the ledgers, which we all still bear in our flesh, that can never be justified, until we have the change of our vile body. Phil. 3:21. Abraham showed his faith in God, being able, even to raise the dead.

Do we not bear the same hope? Who is the dead?

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

A dead man has no need to seek his own justification. There is none to be found anyway. He has the justification of Christ, hidden in him. And technically some of this is shown into the world, by works.

It's unlikely that any believer hasn't done "good" works. Seeking to eternally condemn another believer over works, is not a good work. It derides the justification of Christ in them. We should always lift, as He Lifted us, and not condemn. If we seek condemnation, then we should look only to ourselves. And we will find plenty to observe in our own temple, without having to worry about the supposed ill eternal fates of other believers. That is all supposition.

Christ will be entirely sufficient of Himself, for all that have called upon Him. Whether another might believe that nor not is only their own problem, seeing such as "alone" or "freestanding" when that is not the case. God in Christ Stands for them as well.

Romans 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

I knew I should have made the disclaimer. I came this close. So, let me make it now.

This topic is not about WHAT justifies (i.e. faith alone, obedient faith, faith and works, works alone, all of the above), but about whether justification (however you personally want to define it) can be lost and regained and whether Abraham was re-justified in Gen. 15 . I know we go off on tangents, and they are instructive at times. But I would ask that everyone please address my arguments concerning Abraham. Thanks.

 

[Drew]

Do you think this "verdict" can be revoked (oh no, that word again ) by the "justified" person, or that once declared/made righteous, that verdict is forever?

I think it can be revoked - I believe there are plenty of texts that describe the (sad) possibility of falling away.

 

[smaller]

I knew I should have made the disclaimer. I came this close. So, let me make it now.

This topic is not about WHAT justifies (i.e. faith alone, obedient faith, faith and works, works alone, all of the above), but about whether justification (however you personally want to define it) can be lost and regained and whether Abraham was re-justified in Gen. 15 . I know we go off on tangents, and they are instructive at times. But I would ask that everyone please address my arguments concerning Abraham. Thanks.

I do not believe that Christ rotates in and out of believers, no. And that is essentially what you are proposing. If Abraham had faith, God in Christ was "in him." And not in rotational fashions.

What you are proposing can't be proven in any case. Faith is known only by the holder of same.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

 

[dadof10]

I do not believe that Christ rotates in and out of believers, no. And that is essentially what you are proposing. If Abraham had faith, God in Christ was "in him." And not in rotational fashions.

What you are proposing can't be proven in any case. Faith is known only by the holder of same.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But, I just did prove it from Hebrews 11. Abraham was justified in Gen. 12 and again in Gen. 15. If you disagree with my exegesis, lay it out. That's why I posted it.

 

[smaller]

But, I just did prove it from Hebrews 11. Abraham was justified in Gen. 12 and again in Gen. 15. If you disagree with my exegesis, lay it out. That's why I posted it.

You certainly didn't prove it was just Abraham.

 

[dadof10]

I think it can be revoked - I believe there are plenty of texts that describe the (sad) possibility of falling away.

Me too. Your quote from NT Wright SEEMS to say the opposite, though, "the verdict, can be issued already in the present, in anticipation." He seems to be saying the verdict, even though it's given here, is not issued until the last day. It doesn't seem "revocable", the way he puts it above.

 

[dadof10]

You certainly didn't prove it was just Abraham.

Didn't prove what was Abraham? Care to elaborate?

 

[smaller]

Didn't prove what was Abraham? Care to elaborate?

We know for no uncertain fact that Abraham was a prophet. Genesis 20:7

And as such, the Spirit of Christ was in him to speak.

1 Peter 1:
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

There was no "stand alone" Abraham. The Spirit of Christ was in him.

It might seem your job to prove that God in Christ rotates in and out of people.

And fwiw, arguments that Christ never leaves, but people do, are circular arguments, meaning both claims can't be true simultaneously. He either leaves us or He doesn't.

 

[dadof10]

We know for no uncertain fact that Abraham was a prophet. Genesis 20:7

And as such, the Spirit of Christ was in him to speak.

1 Peter 1:
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

There was no "stand alone" Abraham. The Spirit of Christ was in him.

It might seem your job to prove that God in Christ rotates in and out of people.

And fwiw, arguments that Christ never leaves, but people do, are circular arguments, meaning both claims can't be true simultaneously. He either leaves us or He doesn't.

If you believe that justification is "the Spirit of Christ" coming into a sinner, and "unjustification" is the Spirit leaving the person, then I just proved He does "rotate in and out of people", because Abraham was justified twice. That assumes "rotation". You have to actually engage my exegesis here, Smaller. You have to disprove my theory that Abraham was justified in Gen 12 by actually making reference to it.

 

[smaller]

If you believe that justification is "the Spirit of Christ" coming into a sinner, and "unjustification" is the Spirit leaving the person,

Uh, no, I don't believe that is a proven case.

then I just proved He does "rotate in and out of people", because Abraham was justified twice.

As noted prior, there was no theological animal as "Abraham" alone. I provided many scriptures stating that our justification is in and by Christ, and not of or by the individual. The same can be of any Divine Attribute, as all of this is One Directional, i.e. not of ourselves or something we can conjure up on our own, as we have none, without Him within us.

The Spirit of Christ was in him.

 

[Kidron]

I believe justification is a process, not a one time event, and I think the example of Abraham proves this view. No one will deny he was justified (declared/made righteous) in Gen.

You should strongly consider that had Abraham not been "made righteous" FIRST ..... then all the works he did after that you listed, would not have justified him, because he would have not been FIRST "made righteous" by GOD, according to his FAITH.

 

[dadof10]

Uh, no, I don't believe that is a proven case.


As noted prior, there was no theological animal as "Abraham" alone. I provided many scriptures stating that our justification is in and by Christ, and not of or by the individual. The same can be of any Divine Attribute, as all of this is One Directional, i.e. not of ourselves or something we can conjure up on our own, as we have none, without Him within us.

The Spirit of Christ was in him.

Ok, then did Christ come into him twice, once in Gen. 12, once in Gen. 15 without leaving? It's obvious that he was justified twice.

 

[dadof10]

You should strongly consider that had Abraham not been "made righteous" FIRST ..... then all the works he did after that you listed, would not have justified him, because he would have not been FIRST "made righteous" by GOD, according to his FAITH.

Ok, let's consider it true, that's WHAT justified him. He was justified by faith alone in Gen. 12, lost that justification by faith alone, then regained this justification by faith alone in Gen. 15. Do you agree?

 

[smaller]

Ok, then did Christ come into him twice, once in Gen. 12, once in Gen. 15 without leaving? It's obvious that he was justified twice.

I don't even see justification mentioned in either stretch of scripture above. In any case, as a prophet, the Spirit of Christ was "in him." So Abraham was not just Abraham. Nor is anyone else, by faith. There is certainly righteousness via belief for Abraham in Gen. 15:6. That would be what faith is. The belief that God in Christ is within our heart. Romans 10:8. There is no "proof" that God "left" Abraham in either chapter. God's Covenant (Word) was with Abraham. Gen. 15:8, Gen. 17:4

 

[dadof10]

I don't even see justification mentioned in either stretch of scripture above. In any case, as a prophet, the Spirit of Christ was "in him." So Abraham was not just Abraham. Nor is anyone else, by faith. There is certainly righteousness via belief for Abraham in Gen. 15:6. That would be what faith is. The belief that God in Christ is within our heart. Romans 10:8. There is no "proof" that God "left" Abraham in either chapter. God's Covenant (Word) was with Abraham. Gen. 15:8, Gen. 17:4

Was Abraham justified by obedient, trusting faith in Gen. 15? Doesn't he have the same obedient, trusting faith in Gen. 12? Why would you consider him justified in Gen. 15, but not in Gen. 12?

 

[smaller]

Was Abraham justified by obedient, trusting faith in Gen. 15? Doesn't he have the same obedient, trusting faith in Gen. 12? Why would you consider him justified in Gen. 15, but not in Gen. 12?

There was no "only" Abraham. The Word was within him. [edited demeaning comment. WIP ]

Are we instantly changed into our eternal body? No. That work is completed at a future date. Even this is shown in Ishmael and Isaac, both sons of Abraham. The natural son of the flesh came first, just as it is with all of us. Paul points to this fact in many places. 1 Cor. 15:46-51. Paul directs the identical sights in Gal. 4:29 and identically again in Gal. 5:17. There is no justification for the flesh, and all justification is in The Spirit. The fulfillment of that is our new body. Phil. 3:21. Even the predecessors of faith await this completed Body. Heb. 11:39-40. This is the promise of the Gospel, that we hold by the faithfulness of His Promise.

It is the same faith Abraham had, in the Son of Promise, Jesus Christ. Abraham, the flesh man, was justified and made righteous by belief in God's Promise, through Christ in Him. But that justification did NOT apply to his own flesh. We are justified in the Spirit, not the flesh. The flesh can not be justified or made righteous.