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The Process Of Justification

There was no "only" Abraham. The Word was within him. [edited demeaning comment. WIP :nono]

Are we instantly changed into our eternal body? No. That work is completed at a future date. Even this is shown in Ishmael and Isaac, both sons of Abraham. The natural son of the flesh came first, just as it is with all of us. Paul points to this fact in many places. 1 Cor. 15:46-51. Paul directs the identical sights in Gal. 4:29 and identically again in Gal. 5:17. There is no justification for the flesh, and all justification is in The Spirit. The fulfillment of that is our new body. Phil. 3:21. Even the predecessors of faith await this completed Body. Heb. 11:39-40. This is the promise of the Gospel, that we hold by the faithfulness of His Promise.

It is the same faith Abraham had, in the Son of Promise, Jesus Christ. Abraham, the flesh man, was justified and made righteous by belief in God's Promise, through Christ in Him. But that justification did NOT apply to his own flesh. We are justified in the Spirit, not the flesh. The flesh can not be justified or made righteous.
OK, Smaller. I'm determined to ride this out to the end :lol.

If "There was no "only" Abraham", and it was Abraham and Christ together, why did they need to get re-justified in Gen. 15:6? Abraham (before Christ entered him?) was obviously justified in Gen. 12, so if Christ was in there with Abraham in Gen. 15:6, why the re-justification?
 
OK, Smaller. I'm determined to ride this out to the end :lol.

I think I've shared with you before, that I can not by any means, condemn you, nor do I seek to. Just so we're clear from my end. I think, for my own good as a believer, that Jesus will save both of us, regardless of being sinners.

If "There was no "only" Abraham", and it was Abraham and Christ together, why did they need to get re-justified in Gen. 15:6? Abraham (before Christ entered him?) was obviously justified in Gen. 12, so if Christ was in there with Abraham in Gen. 15:6, why the re-justification?

Abraham was not justified in the flesh, as prior noted. He was an heir of Gods Promise, to raise the dead. Abraham in the flesh was in dead flesh just as you and I are, and that flesh was never justifed or made righteous.

Abraham shows us this truth here:

Genesis 18:27
And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

If you think that sounds like a man trying to justify himself before God, I'd suggest not.
 
Is no one going to take apart my argument? OK, let me throw something else in the mix.

Abraham was also justified in Gen. 17, right before he got circumcised. My friend, Jethro Bodine pointed out to me, on another thread, that Romans 4:18-22 refers to Gen. 17, not Gen. 15, as I had always thought.

"Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform." (Rom. 4:18-21 KJV)

The three bolded, italics verses above are specific to Gen. 17 and are not mentioned at all in Gen. 15, which is more about "the land" that God would give him as an inheritance. Now verse 22 (KJV)

And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

His trusting faith was "imputed to him as righteousness" (just like in Gen. 15:6) when he again believed in God's promise, even though it seemed impossible due to his age and the "deadness" of Sarah's womb. He then went on to obey, by getting circumcised himself and circumcising everyone else.

So, that makes three times Abraham was "imputed righteousness", which is justification, by his obedient, trusting faith.
 
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I think I've shared with you before, that I can not by any means, condemn you, nor do I seek to. Just so we're clear from my end. I think, for my own good as a believer, that Jesus will save both of us, regardless of being sinners.



Abraham was not justified in the flesh, as prior noted. He was an heir of Gods Promise, to raise the dead. Abraham in the flesh was in dead flesh just as you and I are, and that flesh was never justifed or made righteous.

Abraham shows us this truth here:

Genesis 18:27
And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

If you think that sounds like a man trying to justify himself before God, I'd suggest not.
OK, was Abraham's spirit justified then, as opposed to his "flesh"?
 
OK, was Abraham's spirit justified then, as opposed to his "flesh"?
That seems to be an issue with most here, trying to squeeze their entirety past the pearly gates. That ain't going to happen with anyone.

We are all factually planted in "dead flesh." This was/is, for every person, a contrary position. With Abraham, as well as for us. If we went looking for the flesh of Abraham today, and located same, we'd find a dead empty dust pile. And Abraham knew this. That much should be obvious to any believer.

Vile flesh can not be justified or made righteous, period. The Seed of God is a Promise from Him, to raise us from this dead body, and be fashioned into His Own Body, eternally.

Trying to justify or make dead flesh justified or righteous is a colossal waste of time. It is deception "IN" the flesh, that attempts such theological shenanigans.

Dead flesh can swallow wafers and say prayers all day long, and every time it walks away from the altar, it's STILL dead flesh, subject to all it's inherent frailties and failings.

That dead flesh will not be moving on, but will find it's rightful place, in the dust of death in the earth, just as God Himself fully intended to happen.

2 Corinthians 4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
 
I think it can be revoked - I believe there are plenty of texts that describe the (sad) possibility of falling away.
Those trying to justify their flesh have fallen away from Grace and Mercy. They seek to need neither by their actions to justify their own sorry hides. It is a deception of the flesh, and nothing more.

God in Christ is not changed, and will save, regardless. God's Grace is entirely sufficient, as Paul showed us from God's Own Lips in 2 Cor. 12:9

"My Grace is sufficient-"
 
That seems to be an issue with most here, trying to squeeze their entirety past the pearly gates. That ain't going to happen with anyone.

We are all factually planted in "dead flesh." This was/is, for every person, a contrary position. With Abraham, as well as for us. If we went looking for the flesh of Abraham today, and located same, we'd find a dead empty dust pile. And Abraham knew this. That much should be obvious to any believer.

Vile flesh can not be justified or made righteous, period. The Seed of God is a Promise from Him, to raise us from this dead body, and be fashioned into His Own Body, eternally.

Trying to justify or make dead flesh justified or righteous is a colossal waste of time. It is deception "IN" the flesh, that attempts such theological shenanigans.

Dead flesh can swallow wafers and say prayers all day long, and every time it walks away from the altar, it's STILL dead flesh, subject to all it's inherent frailties and failings.

That dead flesh will not be moving on, but will find it's rightful place, in the dust of death in the earth, just as God Himself fully intended to happen.

2 Corinthians 4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Then who was justified in Gen. 12, 15 and 17?

For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." (Rom.4:3 KJV)
 
Then who was justified in Gen. 12, 15 and 17?

For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." (Rom.4:3 KJV)

No natural man was ever justified or righteous in the flesh except God Himself, in flesh.

You (and Drew and many others here) fail to perceive this matter:

Gal. 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

And no amounts of "works" will remove this contrariness OR justify OR make righteous, that which is CONTRARY to The Spirit. It never happened and never will.
 
So, then Christ was justified in Gen. 12, 15 and 17?

The Spirit of Christ was "within" Abraham. The Spirit of Christ justifies no persons sinful flesh. Abraham, God's son of faith, was planted just as we all are. In a temporal natural body of sinful flesh that was always doomed to failure.

Please note this distinction:

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 
The Spirit of Christ was "within" Abraham. The Spirit of Christ justifies no persons sinful flesh. Abraham, God's son of faith, was planted just as we all are. In a temporal natural body of sinful flesh that was always doomed to failure.

Please note this distinction:

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
I'll go back to my original question. Who was justified? When the "Spirit of Christ enters "sinful flesh", does that justify Abraham's spirit?
 
I'll go back to my original question. Who was justified? When the "Spirit of Christ enters "sinful flesh", does that justify Abraham's spirit?
If I had to diagram a theological construct of "believers on earth" it would look like this:

"The believer, as a child of God [THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST in our midst by faith]
planted in flesh, which is corrupt/dishonorable/weak/vile/sinful/natural/dust because it is subject to lust/temptations/intrusions of the tempter."

Paul draws this same diagram in Romans 9:18-23. He draws it again in 1 Cor. 15:43-49. Paul draws it again in Gal. 4:14 and Gal. 4:29, and again in Gal. 5:17, and again in 2 Tim. 2:20-21. And again in 2 Cor. 12:7, and again in Romans 7. And again in Romans 11:8.

This identical theological picture is drawn many many times.


Only ONE of the parties in the lump of flesh will be going to heaven. That would be "the blue one."
 
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If I had to diagram a theological construct of "believers on earth" it would look like this:

"The believer, as a child of God [THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST in our midst by faith]
planted in flesh, which is corrupt/dishonorable/weak/vile/sinful/natural/dust because it is subject to lust/temptations/intrusions of the tempter."

Paul draws this same diagram in Romans 9:18-23. He draws it again in 1 Cor. 15:43-49. Paul draws it again in Gal. 4:14 and Gal. 4:29, and again in Gal. 5:17, and again in 2 Tim. 2:20-21. And again in 2 Cor. 12:7, and again in Romans 7. And again in Romans 11:8.

This identical theological picture is drawn many many times.


Only ONE of the parties in the lump of flesh will be going to heaven. That would be "the blue one."
Yeah, OK. I said I would follow this the the end. There is no end to a circle. Time for me to jump off this ride...
 
You guys are funny.
How many times would Jesus need to be crucified for us to be justified?
If we fell away from the justification we once received theirby nullifying that justification what would we have to do to receive that free gift again and be re-justified.

Let me see if this makes sense. I give you an apple and you accept it and I am happy you accepted it. You cherish the apple, then, later when the things of the world gets the better of you, you decide you don't want the apple and go chasing after oranges because you lost the value of that apple. Sometime down the road, you realize the true value of that apple, so you go ask for it back.

Was the apple ever taken away from you or was it always there, waiting for you to see it's true value?

The prodigal son is an excellent parable of such. He squandered his inheritance, but never left his place in the family.
 
The prodigal son is an excellent parable of such. He squandered his inheritance, but never left his place in the family.

It's somewhat odd that proponents of losing salvation never seem to provide any personal testimony about themselves losing salvation and their subsequent formula's for regaining it, and how many times they may have turned through this supposed cycle. In my own zealous "sin hunting" to completely snuff out any whiff of "external sin" I eventually landed on the fact that my own thoughts were the real problem. Was I saved or not? And I learned in that to destest formulas for supposedly "regaining" same, as it was a very vicious mindset. It was kind of like, the harder you try, the more frustration is encountered, and eventually you end up closely examining the sources of sin, and find it to be, just as scriptures denote, an internally sourced problem. I had to confront the fact that I could not make a Perfect Decision, and in fact I really don't even know what that might mean anyway. I am simply not GOD.

And in that process, I found that submission to My Perfect Father was the only option remaining. Submission is not a bad place to go, it's the only option. I, personally, went through this exact process that Paul speaks of here:

Romans 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Initially, in my zealous "born again" experience, it was me and Jesus. But not long after, I learned that it was not me and Jesus. It was only Jesus. And that was my own submission. I prefer my "self" to be out of the picture, as I am obviously not big P, Perfect. I contemplate with God on this exact manner, early and often, looking for His Perfect and submitting to the fact that my own courses are and have proven themselves to be very much "out of my hands" and "control." I doubt very much that Joseph thought, in his initial bragging in front of his parents and brothers, in his dream of them bowing before "his sheaf" entailed him being sold into slaveship in Egypt. But God came through, big time in a big way, when Joseph was a SLAVE. Even being in this present world is a picture of us all being "in Egypt." That was the course set for Joseph. It is "in Egypt" that Israel grew. Such nice pictures.

This has led to some wonderous matters in my life, that I would have never expected to transpire in a million years. God brought me into some very interesting situations and even more interesting predicaments where I did not have any answers. None. I was "worked out" and "finished" from my end. And then showed me what Grace was all about. It's helplessness. It's weakness on our part. It's unmerited favor, emphasis on the "un."

It's Trust. No theology formula ever spared me from His Hands.

And when one mountain of difficulty was passed, another, multifold larger obstacle, was already being setup in front of me. This can be an extremely frightening experience, but these things do tend to reveal Gods Very Firm Hands on things. The last thing I would consider is to try to "work my own way" into heaven. It's simply not possible for me to do that.
Hebrews 12:
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

It is exactly when we see that "our power" is gone, that God Steps In. And that is simple faith. Not something I am even capable of conjuring up.
 
Ok, let's consider it true, that's WHAT justified him. He was justified by faith alone in Gen. 12, lost that justification by faith alone, then regained this justification by faith alone in Gen. 15. Do you agree?

No, i dont.
See, its GOD who justifies, but his basis for this is our faith.
God's Grace is the term for a completed redemption that is available to any who would believe.
This is why the NT states it like this...."Grace THROUGH Faith".
Grace is the gift of righteousness, which is a completed offering of atonement that is waiting to be delivered as a GIFT to anyone who has FAITH.
2000+ years ago, Jesus finished an atonement on a cross, that is available as a gift to anyone who would by Faith......receive it from God.
"believe and receive".
There is a confusion that many non- protestants as well as many protestants have about "faith.
They would teach that faith itself, by itself saves....., but that is a misunderstanding of the operation of the Grace of God.
Faith, is simply the key that releases God's redemption that has already been completed by Jesus.
Faith is only the "device" whereby God releases what is already available (Grace) unto the believer.
 
You guys are funny.
How many times would Jesus need to be crucified for us to be justified?
If we fell away from the justification we once received theirby nullifying that justification what would we have to do to receive that free gift again and be re-justified.

Let me see if this makes sense. I give you an apple and you accept it and I am happy you accepted it. You cherish the apple, then, later when the things of the world gets the better of you, you decide you don't want the apple and go chasing after oranges because you lost the value of that apple. Sometime down the road, you realize the true value of that apple, so you go ask for it back.

Was the apple ever taken away from you or was it always there, waiting for you to see it's true value?

The prodigal son is an excellent parable of such. He squandered his inheritance, but never left his place in the family.
The apple could be thrown away, correct? God will never "kick us out" of the family, but we can kick ourselves out through disobedience, and stay away.

I don't think your argument is with me or fruit, it's with Paul and the author of Hebrews, who say that Abraham was justified at least twice. I respect your opinion, StoveBolts so I would love if you could try and find a hole in my exegesis or logic concerning Abraham.
 
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