The Process Of Justification

[dadof10]

No, i dont.
See, its GOD who justifies, but his basis for this is our faith.
God's Grace is the term for a completed redemption that is available to any who would believe.
This is why the NT states it like this...."Grace THROUGH Faith".
Grace is the gift of righteousness, which is a completed offering of atonement that is waiting to be delivered as a GIFT to anyone who has FAITH.
2000+ years ago, Jesus finished an atonement on a cross, that is available as a gift to anyone who would by Faith......receive it from God.
"believe and receive".
There is a confusion that many non- protestants as well as many protestants have about "faith.
They would teach that faith itself, by itself saves....., but that is a misunderstanding of the operation of the Grace of God.
Faith, is simply the key that releases God's redemption that has already been completed by Jesus.
Faith is only the "device" whereby God releases what is already available (Grace) unto the believer.

Scripture says Abraham was justified more than once, a fact you do not acknowledge or refute in the above post. You can preach all you want, but in the end, unless you can refute my exegesis, you are just blowing hot air, on this subject, anyway.

 

[dadof10]

It's somewhat odd that proponents of losing salvation never seem to provide any personal testimony about themselves losing salvation and their subsequent formula's for regaining it, and how many times they may have turned through this supposed cycle. In my own zealous "sin hunting" to completely snuff out any whiff of "external sin" I eventually landed on the fact that my own thoughts were the real problem. Was I saved or not? And I learned in that to destest formulas for supposedly "regaining" same, as it was a very vicious mindset. It was kind of like, the harder you try, the more frustration is encountered, and eventually you end up closely examining the sources of sin, and find it to be, just as scriptures denote, an internally sourced problem. I had to confront the fact that I could not make a Perfect Decision, and in fact I really don't even know what that might mean anyway. I am simply not GOD.

And in that process, I found that submission to My Perfect Father was the only option remaining. Submission is not a bad place to go, it's the only option. I, personally, went through this exact process that Paul speaks of here:

Romans 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Initially, in my zealous "born again" experience, it was me and Jesus. But not long after, I learned that it was not me and Jesus. It was only Jesus. And that was my own submission. I prefer my "self" to be out of the picture, as I am obviously not big P, Perfect. I contemplate with God on this exact manner, early and often, looking for His Perfect and submitting to the fact that my own courses are and have proven themselves to be very much "out of my hands" and "control." I doubt very much that Joseph thought, in his initial bragging in front of his parents and brothers, in his dream of them bowing before "his sheaf" entailed him being sold into slaveship in Egypt. But God came through, big time in a big way, when Joseph was a SLAVE. Even being in this present world is a picture of us all being "in Egypt." That was the course set for Joseph. It is "in Egypt" that Israel grew. Such nice pictures.

This has led to some wonderous matters in my life, that I would have never expected to transpire in a million years. God brought me into some very interesting situations and even more interesting predicaments where I did not have any answers. None. I was "worked out" and "finished" from my end. And then showed me what Grace was all about. It's helplessness. It's weakness on our part. It's unmerited favor, emphasis on the "un."

It's Trust. No theology formula ever spared me from His Hands.

And when one mountain of difficulty was passed, another, multifold larger obstacle, was already being setup in front of me. This can be an extremely frightening experience, but these things do tend to reveal Gods Very Firm Hands on things. The last thing I would consider is to try to "work my own way" into heaven. It's simply not possible for me to do that.
Hebrews 12:
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

It is exactly when we see that "our power" is gone, that God Steps In. And that is simple faith. Not something I am even capable of conjuring up.

Anything to add to my exegesis, or just more circular reasoning?

 

[stovebolts]

It's somewhat odd that proponents of losing salvation never seem to provide any personal testimony about themselves losing salvation and their subsequent formula's for regaining it, and how many times they may have turned through this supposed cycle. In my own zealous "sin hunting" to completely snuff out any whiff of "external sin" I eventually landed on the fact that my own thoughts were the real problem. Was I saved or not? And I learned in that to destest formulas for supposedly "regaining" same, as it was a very vicious mindset. It was kind of like, the harder you try, the more frustration is encountered, and eventually you end up closely examining the sources of sin, and find it to be, just as scriptures denote, an internally sourced problem. I had to confront the fact that I could not make a Perfect Decision, and in fact I really don't even know what that might mean anyway. I am simply not GOD.

And in that process, I found that submission to My Perfect Father was the only option remaining. Submission is not a bad place to go, it's the only option. I, personally, went through this exact process that Paul speaks of here:

Romans 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Initially, in my zealous "born again" experience, it was me and Jesus. But not long after, I learned that it was not me and Jesus. It was only Jesus. And that was my own submission. I prefer my "self" to be out of the picture, as I am obviously not big P, Perfect. I contemplate with God on this exact manner, early and often, looking for His Perfect and submitting to the fact that my own courses are and have proven themselves to be very much "out of my hands" and "control." I doubt very much that Joseph thought, in his initial bragging in front of his parents and brothers, in his dream of them bowing before "his sheaf" entailed him being sold into slaveship in Egypt. But God came through, big time in a big way, when Joseph was a SLAVE. Even being in this present world is a picture of us all being "in Egypt." That was the course set for Joseph. It is "in Egypt" that Israel grew. Such nice pictures.

This has led to some wonderous matters in my life, that I would have never expected to transpire in a million years. God brought me into some very interesting situations and even more interesting predicaments where I did not have any answers. None. I was "worked out" and "finished" from my end. And then showed me what Grace was all about. It's helplessness. It's weakness on our part. It's unmerited favor, emphasis on the "un."

It's Trust. No theology formula ever spared me from His Hands.

And when one mountain of difficulty was passed, another, multifold larger obstacle, was already being setup in front of me. This can be an extremely frightening experience, but these things do tend to reveal Gods Very Firm Hands on things. The last thing I would consider is to try to "work my own way" into heaven. It's simply not possible for me to do that.
Hebrews 12:
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

It is exactly when we see that "our power" is gone, that God Steps In. And that is simple faith. Not something I am even capable of conjuring up.

Beautifully said.

 

[Kidron]

Scripture says Abraham was justified more than once, a fact you do not acknowledge or refute in the above post. You can preach all you want, but in the end, unless you can refute my exegesis, you are just blowing hot air, on this subject, anyway.

I'll tell you what.
Show me a scripture written in the OT or by Paul in the NT, that speaks about the faith of Abraham, and actually says he was "Justified TWICE".
Show be the words " justified twice", in a scripture, dealing with Abraham, and i'll be happy to talk about it.
Otherwise, you are pretending, based on what you've been incorrectly taught, as i can tell you that Abraham was justified by faith, alone.
The way you know this is that the context of Abraham's works, = was that he had the Faith FIRST, and showed his Faith, SECOND, >by< his works.
This is exactly why James says...."i'll show you my faith by my works"....Faith, THEN works.
It the same with Jesus sending them "out into all the world", AFTER they are saved.

In other words, works are subsequent to faith, .they occur after the Faith that God accepts to thereby Justify., and this is why your bible tells you that Abraham was justified by his FAITH and never tells you that he was justified by BOTH.
You seem to be having the same issue that people have who wont or cant understand that Water Baptism is not FAITH, but it FOLLOWS their Faith.....as they are getting wet BECAUSE they believed > FIRST.
Be honest......and tell me when someone is ever taken into a Baptism and didnt know why they were getting in it.
C'mon......be honest and agree that they have understood the Gospel, and THEN they are taken into the water After they have believed.
There is not a Christian alive, anywhere, that was taken into the pool, and then the priest or preacher said...."ok, i know you DONT KNOW WHY YOU ARE HERE, but here is why.......Im going to tell you the GOSPEL, and if you believe it, i'll dunk you "in the name of...."
So really......its just ridiculous to pretend that a person is saved by getting into the pool or being dunked "in the name of"..., when in fact they only get it it AT ALL because they have BELIEVED FIRST the MESSAGE., the Gospel.
And if someone takes them and dunks them, "in the name of"...., and they have no idea why, or they were told that if they want to be be a Christian, then come and be dunked in the name of......and then told.....Ok, you are saved now, you are a Christian now because you have been W-baptised "in the name of.".......
If that is what happened to them, then they are as lost , unsaved, as they were before they got wet and got out.
So, it the same with Abraham's works.......he has the FAITH, and THEN he goes into the wilderness "not knowing where"....etc.
So, Abraham BELIEVED first (Faith) and THEN God applied righteousness, at the INSTANT of faith.
This has never changed, regarding "justification by FAITH".
Belief occured inside Abrahams's heart, and it didnt occur >first< when the knife almost kills Isaac.
"Well, i BELIEVE that God can raise him up >FAITH<, and THEN, ......
Faith, had already HAPPENED in the heart, and THAT is why Abraham proceeded.
And based on this faith in Abraham's heart, God justified him, instantly.
This is why Abraham is the "father of all them that BELIEVE"....according to Paul...Romans 4:11

 

[smaller]

Anything to add to my exegesis, or just more circular reasoning?

When anyone can describe how Saul, a "blinded in mind by the god of this world" unbeliever, (2 Cor. 4:4)

even though he "thought" he was doing "God's Work" prior,

Acts 22:
3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

Acts 26:
9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

and then, after salvation, wound up here:

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Not was, "am," present tense.

Is this how justification worked with Paul?

Now some might admit that can be a bit difficult to comprehend. And why anyone in faith thinks it's profitable to potentially condemn themselves to hell, or even worse, other believers, will remain an even stranger sight in my eyes.

I'd suggest Paul was definitely following Jesus:

Luke 18:
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

We might even note that it is God's Mercy that justified that man. And not the man who sought it by "his works" thinking he was better than the other "sinners."

If we think that tying our son up to an altar and plunging a knife into them is a good work that justifies any of us "by works" I'd dare say such works would be rather askew, and it is unlikely that God would stop anyone from doing so, if they thought that "work" justified them.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Is this the "work" we should all do then?

Perhaps we might perceive this is the "work" that justified, that James spoke of:

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

 

[dadof10]

I'll tell you what.
Show me a scripture written in the OT or by Paul in the NT, that speaks about the faith of Abraham, and actually says he was "Justified TWICE".
Show be the words " justified twice", in a scripture, dealing with Abraham, and i'll be happy to talk about it.

Is this your criteria? Really? Show me the word "Trinity" or the words "baptism is only symbolic" in Scripture. Better yet, show me the words "Abraham was only justified once" or "justification can't be repeated" or "Abraham was justified by faith alone". Are you serious?

Otherwise, you are pretending, based on what you've been incorrectly taught,

Pretending what, Kidron. That we infer true doctrine from Scripture? Everyone infers from Scripture, in fact that's how ALL scholars Protestant and Catholic make their money. I'm not sure how "Satanist, Atheist or Hindu" scholars arrive at their conclusions, though. Most doctrine that you believe is inferred. See below for proof.

as i can tell you that Abraham was justified by faith, alone.

And you arrive at this conclusion how?

The way you know this is that the context of Abraham's works, = was that he had the Faith FIRST, and showed his Faith, SECOND, >by< his works.
This is exactly why James says...."i'll show you my faith by my works"....Faith, THEN works.
It the same with Jesus sending them "out into all the world", AFTER they are saved.

[Edited. Removed demeaning emoticon. Violation of ToS 2.4. WIP] So, the "way you know" is by inferring it... Let that sink in for a second.... If Scripture actually said "Abraham was justified by faith alone", you would have simply posted it, so it obviously doesn't and you know it. It's called "Moving The Goalposts", and it's a logical fallacy. But, wait, it gets even better...

In other words, works are subsequent to faith, .they occur after the Faith that God accepts to thereby Justify., and this is why your bible tells you that Abraham was justified by his FAITH and never tells you that he was justified by BOTH.
You seem to be having the same issue that people have who wont or cant understand that Water Baptism is not FAITH, but it FOLLOWS their Faith.....as they are getting wet BECAUSE they believed > FIRST...So, it the same with Abraham's works.......he has the FAITH, and THEN he goes into the wilderness "not knowing where"....etc.
So, Abraham BELIEVED first (Faith) and THEN God applied righteousness, at the INSTANT of faith.

You know that Abraham going "into the wilderness..." happened in Gen 12, right? So, you are agreeing with me, a Catholic. Let that sink in for a moment. I said earlier, it didn't matter what justified Abraham. This thread is about the irrefutable (by you) fact that he was justified twice."[H]e goes into the wilderness "not knowing where"....etc" (Gen. 12) and, at the moment of faith, "God applied righteousness". So, Abraham was justified in Gen. 12. and in Gen. 15. He was justified twice.

I guess I really don't have to "show you the words 'justified twice'", huh? You can infer this fact all by yourself...

 

[dadof10]

When anyone can describe how Saul, a "blinded in mind by the god of this world" unbeliever, (2 Cor. 4:4)

even though he "thought" he was doing "God's Work" prior,

Acts 22:
3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

Acts 26:
9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

and then, after salvation, wound up here:

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Not was, "am," present tense.

Is this how justification worked with Paul?

Now some might admit that can be a bit difficult to comprehend. And why anyone in faith thinks it's profitable to potentially condemn themselves to hell, or even worse, other believers, will remain an even stranger sight in my eyes.

I'd suggest Paul was definitely following Jesus:

Luke 18:
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

We might even note that it is God's Mercy that justified that man. And not the man who sought it by "his works" thinking he was better than the other "sinners."

If we think that tying our son up to an altar and plunging a knife into them is a good work that justifies any of us "by works" I'd dare say such works would be rather askew, and it is unlikely that God would stop anyone from doing so, if they thought that "work" justified them.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Is this the "work" we should all do then?

Perhaps we might perceive this is the "work" that justified, that James spoke of:

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Anything to add to the topic? Any relevant argument concerning the two justifications mentioned in previous posts?

 

[Kidron]

Is this your criteria? Really?

-
Abraham was only justified once" or "justification can't be repeated" or "Abraham was justified by faith alone". Are you serious?


The bible does not infer that Abraham or anyone can be saved more then once.
And Abraham was absolutely justified by faith.
After that happened, he then did works. (went out).




[Edited. Removed demeaning emoticon. Violation of ToS 2.4. WIP] So, the "way you know" is by inferring it... Let that sink in for a second.... If Scripture actually said "Abraham was justified by faith alone", you would have simply posted it, so it obviously doesn't and you know it. It's called "Moving The Goalposts", and it's a logical fallacy.

Here, i'll post it for you.
[Edited. Removed demeaning comment. Violation of ToS 2.4. WIP]

Romans 4
Justification by Faith

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather humanly speaking, has found? [Has he obtained a favored standing?] 2 For if Abraham was justified [that is, acquitted from the guilt of his sins] by works [those things he did that were good], he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed in(trusted, relied on) God, and it was credited to his account as righteousness (right living, right standing with God).” 4 Now to a laborer, his wages are not credited as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation [something owed to him]. 5 But to the one who does not work [that is, the one who does not try to earn his salvation by doing good], but believes and completely trusts in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited to him as righteousness (right standing with God). 6 And in this same way David speaks of the blessing on the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7
“Blessed and happy and favored are those whose lawless acts have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered up and completely buried.
8
“Blessed and happy and favored is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into accountnor charge against him.”

----------------------------------------------------

You know that Abraham going "into the wilderness..." happened in Gen 12, right? So, you are agreeing with me, a Catholic. Let that sink in for a moment. I said earlier, it didn't matter what justified Abraham..


Actually the scripture you didnt post says that Abraham believed, and then following the believing, he THEN went.
So, as i said.
Works follow Faith., always.
We BELIEVE and THEN we are baptised.
The Apostles in Mark 16 were SAVED, and THEN Jesus sent them out.
Or as it says in Acts 16:30-31...."Sirs what must i do to be SAVED.......BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus".

Nothing about works, or baptism, or effort.
Acts 16:30-31 > "WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED ....= BELIEVE"

Its always stated very clearly in the OT and in the NT that Salvation is faith generated, and following faith comes the works.
Always.


K

 

[smaller]

Anything to add to the topic? Any relevant argument concerning the two justifications mentioned in previous posts?

I don't know how anyone could have peace with God when they think they have to prove themselves in order to save themselves. There is no peace under the "or else I'll burn you alive forever" positions. How could anyone have peace with that threat perpetually hanging over their heads?

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[dadof10]

-

The bible does not infer that Abraham or anyone can be saved more then once.

It does infer that he was justified twice, though, and you have already agreed, and do so again in your very next sentence...

And Abraham was absolutely justified by faith.
After that happened, he then did works. (went out).

This "going out" is an obvious reference to Gen 12. Your construct is that in Gen 12, Abraham had faith, was justified by that faith alone, then "went out". I don't see where we disagree (except on the unbiblical "faith alone" part). Again, what justified him is not the issue here, but the fact that, whatever it was, it happened more than once. And, again...You agree.

Here, i'll post it for you.

[Edited. Removed demeaning comment. Violation of ToS 2.4. WIP]

Romans 4
Justification by Faith

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather humanly speaking, has found? [Has he obtained a favored standing?] 2 For if Abraham was justified [that is, acquitted from the guilt of his sins] by works [those things he did that were good], he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed in(trusted, relied on) God, and it was credited to his account as righteousness (right living, right standing with God).” 4 Now to a laborer, his wages are not credited as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation [something owed to him]. 5 But to the one who does not work [that is, the one who does not try to earn his salvation by doing good], but believes and completely trusts in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited to him as righteousness (right standing with God). 6 And in this same way David speaks of the blessing on the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7
“Blessed and happy and favored are those whose lawless acts have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered up and completely buried.
8
“Blessed and happy and favored is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into accountnor charge against him.”

----------------------------------------------------

You know that Abraham going "into the wilderness..." happened in Gen 12, right? So, you are agreeing with me, a Catholic. Let that sink in for a moment. I said earlier, it didn't matter what justified Abraham..


Actually the scripture you didnt post says that Abraham believed, and then following the believing, he THEN went.
So, as i said.
Works follow Faith., always.
We BELIEVE and THEN we are baptised.
The Apostles in Mark 16 were SAVED, and THEN Jesus sent them out.
Or as it says in Acts 16:30-31...."Sirs what must i do to be SAVED.......BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus".

Nothing about works, or baptism, or effort.
Acts 16:30-31 > "WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED ....= BELIEVE"

Its always stated very clearly in the OT and in the NT that Salvation is faith generated, and following faith comes the works.
Always.


K

You're having a hard time keeping on track here. This isn't about what justified Abraham, but how many times he was justified. If you want to say he was justified by faith alone in both Gen. 12 and Gen. 15, fine. On the topic of how many times he was justified, we agree.

 

[dadof10]

I don't know how anyone could have peace with God when they think they have to prove themselves in order to save themselves. There is no peace under the "or else I'll burn you alive forever" positions. How could anyone have peace with that threat perpetually hanging over their heads?

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

You are having a hard time keeping up, too. This thread is not about your concept of "peace", or what justifies, but how many times Abraham was justified. Unless you have something relevant to add here, please go preach somewhere else. Thanks.

 

[smaller]

You are having a hard time keeping up, too. This thread is not about your concept of "peace", or what justifies, but how many times Abraham was justified. Unless you have something relevant to add here, please go preach somewhere else. Thanks.

Why did this not apply to Abraham? Did Abraham have a different Gospel?

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[dadof10]

Romans 4
Justification by Faith
4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather humanly speaking, has found? [Has he obtained a favored standing?] 2 For if Abraham was justified [that is, acquitted from the guilt of his sins] by works [those things he did that were good], he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed in(trusted, relied on) God, and it was credited to his account as righteousness (right living, right standing with God).” 4 Now to a laborer, his wages are not credited as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation [something owed to him]. 5 But to the one who does not work [that is, the one who does not try to earn his salvation by doing good], but believes and completely trusts in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited to him as righteousness (right standing with God). 6 And in this same way David speaks of the blessing on the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7
“Blessed and happy and favored are those whose lawless acts have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered up and completely buried.
8
“Blessed and happy and favored is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into accountnor charge against him.”

Is this from a commentary, or are the bracketed parts your personal interpretation?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

dadof10 , do you want to engage on this topic?

 

[dadof10]

dadof10 , do you want to engage on this topic?

Sure, Jethro. I really value your input and I know if you can't refute it, no one can.

 

[Kidron]

You're having a hard time keeping on track here. This isn't about what justified Abraham, but how many times he was justified. If you want to say he was justified by faith alone in both Gen. 12 and Gen. 15, fine. On the topic of how many times he was justified, we agree.

As i said, He believed God.....= that is Faith.
Abraham then, acted on his faith......but this "doing" didnt justify a second time, it only proved that he truly believed.
Or, had he not believed but then acted on a hunch that >maybe< it was true, then He soon has a dead son and no justification.
So, it was not in the doing of the thing whereby Abraham was justified., it was in the truly believing.

Think of it like this.
How many times does the eternally saving blood of Christ need to be shed to pay for your sins this week or next?
Once you understand that, you'll comprehend why you are not ever justified more then once, but until you understand it, you'll continue to think that you are needing to be justified.
So, the problem isn't with Christ's blood.....is it.?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sure, Jethro. I really value your input and I know if you can't refute it, no one can.

I'm flattered, lol.

I think it's been presented already in this thread, but do we agree that this is what justification is?

"by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14 NASB)

 

[Kidron]

I'm flattered, lol.

I think it's been presented already in this thread, but do we agree that this is what justification is?

"by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14 NASB)

-
Thats a great scripture to post in this discussion, as it is so doctrinally loaded with truth.
First of all, it eliminates works and water baptism as necessary to be saved, when it teaches..."by ONE offering". "Has Perfected" "for ALL time". >those<, who ARE sanctified.

So, we are also taught that the offering of Jesus on the cross is what is given to sanctify us and PERFECT us, and NOT our works, or water baptism, or enduring to the end, or keeping the faith, ., as nothing else but the one time offering of Jesus, once applied to us by believing the Gospel.. (Acts 16:30,31) .can sanctify and perfect.
And the reason it does is because that is the effect of God's righteousness when it is applied to us for eternity.
This is known as the "free gift of Righteousness".. or the "imputed Righteousness of Christ". Romans 5:17

 

[Jethro Bodine]

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Thats a great scripture to post in this discussion, as it is so doctrinally loaded with truth.
First of all, it eliminates works and water baptism as necessary to be saved, when it teaches..."by ONE offering". "Has Perfected" "for ALL time". >those<, who ARE sanctified.

So, we are also taught that the offering of Jesus on the cross is what is given to sanctify us and PERFECT us, and NOT our works, or water baptism, or enduring to the end, or keeping the faith, ., as nothing else but the one time offering of Jesus, once applied to us by believing the Gospel.. (Acts 16:30,31) .can sanctify and perfect.
And the reason it does is because that is the effect of God's righteousness when it is applied to us for eternity.
This is known as the "free gift of Righteousness".. or the "imputed Righteousness of Christ". Romans 5:17

And it is this understanding of justification that makes it unnecessary to have it reapplied over and over again, or have it reapplied in ever increasing amounts as in a process of justification. It was done right, one time, perfectly, for all time, for all sin.

The other reason we don't get re-justified is because it is impossible to be re-justified. Hebrews is clear that you can not come back to Christ if you fall away from Christ.

"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6 NASB)

Now I know that dadof10 is in no way suggesting that Abraham apostatized between the times he says he was justified and then re-justified. So the argument for the impossibility of re-justification is not in debate here. Which leaves the argument for the necessity for re-justification the matter that we need to discuss. But, as the scriptures show us, that simply is not needed. Justification is a one time, for all time event. That being true, we know Abraham could not have already been justified prior to Genesis 15:6. If he had been justified in Genesis 12:4 as is being claimed, then it would not be necessary to re-justify him in Genesis 15:6, where we know without a shadow of a doubt he was in fact justified.

 

[Kidron]

And it is this understanding of justification that makes it unnecessary to have it reapplied over and over again, or have it reapplied in ever increasing amounts as in a process of justification. It was done right, one time, perfectly, for all time, for all sin.

Exactly.
Faith has executed its design and God has redeemed you forever.
No more worries about losing it need apply.