The Promise of the Holy Spirit.

[Classik]

(Please, No unnecessary arguement. I only need clarification).

Some of us believe that the Holy Spirit became manifest in us after the Pentecost. Some have a completely different oppinion: that the Holy Spirit has always been with us.

I need clarification:dunno

Let's look at these verses:


Christ said:
John 15:26 NKJV

“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

And if the Holy Spirit already existed in us before the Pentecost why would Christ promise us the Spirit?


Acts 2

1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with oneaccord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

14 But Peter, standing up with theeleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.

[SIZE=+2]16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:


17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,

That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh[/SIZE];

Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,

Your young men shall see visions,

Your old men shall dream dreams.


18 And on My menservants and onMy maidservants

I will pour out My Spirit in those days;

And they shall prophesy.


19 I will show wonders in heaven above

And signs in the earth beneath:

Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.


20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,

And the moon into blood,

Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the L ord .

How about Prophet Joel? He prophesied about the Holy Spirit. This is as if the Holy Spirit didn't exist during their time

 

[Classik]

Originally Posted by Kidron

As Jesus hadn't died for anyone's sins yet , during the time that passage was written, there are no "Christians"in the audience, as we understand how one becomes a "Christian".

Also, the Holy Spirit had not been give yet, etc.

You might want to rethink the part you said that the Holy Spirit had not be given yet. God had given the Holy Spirit many times before Pentecost. God gave us His spirit when we were created. There are too many scriptures in the Old Testament to list showing where and when God gave His Holy Spirit.

Thanks for your input

 

[Classik]

Perhaps the question to ask is: who is this Holy Spirit Christ promised us?

 

[reba]

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Exo 31:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Exo 31:2 See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:
Exo 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Num 11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

1Ki 18:12 And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, that the Spirit of the LORD shall carry thee whither I know not; and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he shall slay me: but I thy servant fear the LORD from my youth.

2Ch 15:1 And the Spirit of God came upon Azariah the son of Oded:

2Ch 24:20 And the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, which stood above the people, and said unto them, Thus saith God, Why transgress ye the commandments of the LORD, that ye cannot prosper? because ye have forsaken the LORD, he hath also forsaken you.

Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.


There are more such verses.

 

[Kidron]

Perhaps the question to ask is: who is this Holy Spirit Christ promised us?

Are we talking New Testament Book of Acts Chapter 2....Holy Spirit imbuement of power?
So, all my answers are that context, as i think that is what you are asking about.

I can tell you about the HS and King David or the HS and the major and minor prophets, and so forth, but, i think you are asking about when a person receives the HS in this dispensation.
That happens when you are born again, as its the HS that convicts you to deal with your sins as you hear the Gospel, and that is being drawn by the HS, as Jesus said he will do once he is Lifted UP.
You can interchange Jesus with the HS, and you can interchange Jesus with "eternal life", as he is both.

If you've read your bible, you read that John 20:22 shows you the HS being given to the Disciples by Jesus.

Then in Act 2 u have the upper room Pentecost "experience" where they were imbued with power to preach the word.

So, in a Christian's life, some are called into the ministry to be Pastors, Teachers, Preachers, Minstrels, ect, and so, even tho they have been born again by the HS, and have been given the HS, they need something more if they are called by God into his service... and one of the ways he calls them is to imbue them with a special enabling to do the specific ministry he has called them to complete.
Acts 2 gives a glimpse of 120 disciples being enabled to do, and later in the "Acts of the Apostles", you find them doing what they were enabled to do.

There is a book , a bio of Madame Jeanne Guyon, that deals with this post salvation enabling and she details it, and..... she also wrote several books on prayer that are interesting in case anyone wants a new book to read on these subjects.




K

 

[Classik]

The question is: When did the Holy Spirit begin existing in man? Is it right from the OT or right after the Pentecost as Christ promised?

 

[Kidron]

The question is: When did the Holy Spirit begin existing in man? Is it right from the OT or right after the Pentecost as Christ promised?

Well, John 1:3 says that all things were made by Jesus, and that in him (vs 4) is life.
vs 9 says that Jesus lighteth every person that comes into the world....and in John 5:26 it tells you that Jesus has life in himself the same as his Father has life in himself.
So, as the HS regenerates or makes alive a dead spirit, all of this is tied intimately together with Genesis 2:7 where the spirit of man was originally made alive.
And its interesting that it says that God "breathed" into Adam.......if you compare this to John 20:22 where Jesus "breathed on them" for them to receive the HS.
Isnt it interesting that God breathed into Adam and the 2nd Adam Breathed into his apostles to receive the breath of HS life?

The bible is so cool.
There is just so much in it.





K

 

[handy]

Classik,

The Holy Spirit has always existed and has always been at work here on earth since creation.

What Joel prophesied, what Jesus promised and what we see fulfilled at Pentecost was the difference in how the Holy Spirit works in the hearts of God's children before and after the cross.

Under the old covenant, the Holy Spirit would "come upon" certain people. Prophets, certain priests at certain times, some of the kings, and even ordinary folks who needed to do certain things.

We see this with Joseph, even the Pharaoh recognized this for he said:
“Can we find a man like this, in whom is a divine spirit?†<sup class="versenum"></sup>So Pharaoh said to Joseph, “Since God has informed you of all this, there is no one so discerning and wise as you are. You shall be over my house, and according to your command all my people shall do homage; only in the throne I will be greater than you.†Genesis 41:38-40

We also see it in Gideon, "So the Spirit of the Lord came upon Gideon; and he blew a trumpet, and the Abiezrites were called together to follow him." Judges 6:34

We also see it when God sent His Spirit to the 70 elders that were to assist Moses:
The Lord therefore said to Moses, “Gather for Me seventy men from the elders of Israel, whom you know to be the elders of the people and their officers and bring them to the tent of meeting, and let them take their stand there with you. Then I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of the Spirit who is upon you, and will put Him upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, so that you will not bear it all alone. <sup class="versenum"></sup>Say to the people, ‘ Consecrate yourselves for tomorrow, and you shall eat meat; for you have wept in the ears of the Lord, saying, “Oh that someone would give us meat to eat! For we were well-off in Egypt.†Therefore the Lord will give you meat and you shall eat. You shall eat, not one day, nor two days, nor five days, nor ten days, nor twenty days, but a whole month, until it comes out of your nostrils and becomes loathsome to you; because you have rejected the Lord who is among you and have wept before Him, saying, “Why did we ever leave Egypt?â€â€™ But Moses said, “The people, among whom I am, are 600,000 on foot; yet You have said, ‘I will give them meat, so that they may eat for a whole month.’ Should flocks and herds be slaughtered for them, to be sufficient for them? Or should all the fish of the sea be gathered together for them, to be sufficient for them?†The Lord said to Moses, “Is the Lord’s power limited? Now you shall see whether My word will come true for you or not.â€


So Moses went out and told the people the words of the Lord. Also, he gathered seventy men of the elders of the people, and stationed them around the tent. <sup class="versenum"></sup> Then the Lord came down in the cloud and spoke to him; and He took of the Spirit who was upon him and placed Him upon the seventy elders. And when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do it again. Numbers 11:16-25



When King David cried out "Take not your Holy Spirit from me" he was crying out a very real fear.... The Holy Spirit would come upon certain people for a certain time, but He would certainly leave people as well. David knew this because he saw what happened to Saul:

Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon David from that day forward. And Samuel arose and went to Ramah.

Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord terrorized him. 1 Samuel 16:13-14


In the old testament, the Holy Spirit's "coming upon" a person gave them the ability to perform mighty acts, speak directly for God, have prophetic dreams and visions... but not all of God's people had the Spirit. The Spirit only came upon these people in order to equip them for the specific work that God would have them do.

What we see in Acts 2 is the sea change that happened when Christ ascended and God poured out His Spirit on the Church. Now, if one is a believer, if one is part of the Church, one has the Holy Spirit.

With all due respect to Kidron, I disagree that there is any "extra" anointing... One either has the Spirit, which all believers receive upon their belief, repentence, and baptism... or one doesn't. And, if one has the Spirit, then one will be able to do whatever work the Spirit needs done... be it uprooting a mountain and casting it into the sea (probably not much need of that, but it could be done if necessary) or making a lame man walk, or speaking a language that one had never spoke before. All these things are open to anyone with the Spirit.

The key is, it is for work that needs to be done for God's purposes.

The dead "snake pastor" is an example to us.... Yes, Christians can indeed be bitten by poisonous snakes and be unharmed... when they are doing the work that the Spirit is guiding them to do... NOT SHOWING OFF!!!!

Paul was bitten by a snake, and was unharmed. The Spirit was using him at the time to accomplish His purposes... Had Paul wanted to put on a show for others and put God to the test, that snake bite very well would have killed him and the Spirit would choose a different worker to accomplish the tasks.

I mentioned in the passage about the snake pastor that he misunderstood Mark 16 and he isn't the only one to do so. The signs of Mark 16 are exactly that...signs. Signs given to authenticate the gospel message as being from God and not just some made up story of men. These signs were performed in accompaniment with sharing the gospel so that the hearers would believe.

The reason why we see a diminishment in these signs today, especially in the West, is because people are well aware of the gospel. God isn't just giving us power to put on a freak show for entertainment and profit... that was never the purpose of the signs. It's no wonder that in areas of the world in which the gospel isn't yet well known, and especially where people are ignorant of the Bible, the signs still accompany the sharing of the gospel.

Signs aside, all of God's people have His Spirit and the Spirit will enable anyone to do what needs to be done... without any extra "special anointing" like we see so prevalent on TBN.

 

[Classik]

Classik,

The Holy Spirit has always existed and has always been at work here on earth since creation.

What Joel prophesied, what Jesus promised and what we see fulfilled at Pentecost was the difference in how the Holy Spirit works in the hearts of God's children before and after the cross.

Thank you, Dora. This is lovely and clearly put.
Thanks, reba Good verses!

 

[for_his_glory]

Reba and Handy gave great verses to show the Holy Spirit has always been in man as Gods Spirit moved upon them in their belief and these verses below go right along with all the others of the OT to even as they believed they also received this same Spirit of God in them as we still do today and up to the time of Christ return.

John 14:15 if ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:16 and I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter that he may abide with you forever;

Acts 2:1 and when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Acts 2:2 and suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Acts 2:3 and there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Acts 2:4 and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

 

[Classik]

Reba and Handy gave great verses to show the Holy Spirit has always been in man as Gods Spirit moved upon them in their belief and these verses below go right along with all the others of the OT to even as they believed they also received this same Spirit of God in them as we still do today and up to the time of Christ return.

John 14:15 if ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:16 and I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter that he may abide with you forever;

Acts 2:1 and when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Acts 2:2 and suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Acts 2:3 and there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Acts 2:4 and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

French Leave.... Hehe
welcome back

 

[for_his_glory]

Thank you Classik. I needed a break and continue my ancestry search which I have now finished. Very fascinating search.

 

[Elijah674]

After sin the Godhead were limited through Adam man in having the earth for his domain. That is why we see creation before mankind with the omnipresence of the Holy Spirit not being limited, and after sin God worked under this temporiary 'allowed' restriction . See Matt. 4:9

After Christ won back earth's domain (see Gen. 1:26) & was accepted as the (John 20:17) second Adam's perfect sinless life lived, we then see the Holy Spirit sent back to testify & uplift Christ omnipresent. But never think that Christ of the O.T. was in any way less powerful than just that of being not omnipresent. All miracles were done by Christ & as powerful as could be, such as the parting of the sea + many miracles! (it was just that Adam had limited His power to location.

And Christ as recreating the New Heart?? The Born Again person? All could be Re/Born & were as seen in Acts 5:32 total surrender. All through the O.T. we see Heb. 11:13 OT ones mostly seen there! Again, it was of somewhat of a smaller location is all.. to work from. That is why we see the Sanctuary requirement for mighty miracles to be done from. It was to draw the earth lost to this mighty power seen in Obedient Israel and be saved.

Again! The Holy Spirit did not lift up Himself, but TESTIFIED of Christ!

And yes, this is how 'i' see it.

Just one more Truth that is found in O.T. 1 Sam. 10 of one Born Again one. And here we see that the New Heart person could also be found again fallen from rebirth, and was later on.
One might have wondered what it was like for the Godhead or even Adam + Eve to go throught this with the one that they loved dearly??

But here is the verse of 1 Sam. 10
[6] And the Spirit of the LORD [will come upon thee], and thou shalt prophesy with them, and [[shalt be turned into another]] man.
[7] And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.
[8] And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do.
[9] And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, [[God gave him another heart]]: and all those signs came to pass that day.

--Elijah

 

[Classik]

Interesting input. Thanks all.