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The protestants omitted books of the Bible!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Soma-Sight
  • Start date Start date
Orthodox Christian said:
One of the rubs against ancient Apostolic Christianity- ie, Catholics, Orthodox, Copts, Armenians, and the like, is that we are an anachronism: something from another time that does not belong in this current time. Our worship, they say, is not relevant to the times. Our vestments are elaborate and showy and irrelevant. Our church buildings are elaborate and ostentatious, they say.

We are enamored with the traditions of men, for we insist on understanding what is in scripture in a concordant way with our holy forefathers and foremothers.

When I go to worship, I leave time far behind. Though the Church acretes certain hymns and practices over time, the worship itself is out of time. It is not a fad or a style- and because of this, it never goes out of style. The worship of the Church is the template by which everything else is fashioned. This is because the worship of the Church is fashioned after the one True Template that is heaven.

The Temple in heaven is not four bare walls and a sermon. There is an altar, there are elders censing the altar and the throne, there is chanting of the Trisagion (thrice holy hymn: Holy, holy, holy is the Lord our God). The Elders are not dressed in sports jackets, they are in robes and vestments.

Word to the wise for the iconoclasts: heaven and heavenly things are timeless, and they are not plain/austere. Worship is 'hilaron' full of joy, hilarious, elaborate, over the top.

hollah

Iakovos (James)

Amen! We join the choirs of angels in the heavenly liturgy in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. During that time we pray with the saints and angels before the throne of God! Scott Hahn has an amazing book out called the Lamb's supper. In it he shows how the Mass parrellels the book of revelations. Vestments, candles, incense, liturgy of the Word, liturgy of the Eucharist, etc. etc.. It fits like a glove. That my Orthodox brother knows this shows that it has been a matter of theology for a long time. In fact Mr. Hahn was a protestant pastor and teacher of theology, observing the Mass when it struck him that he was observing what was the Book of Revelation in the Mass. He thought he had discovered something new and profound. But found it throughout historic Christianity all the way back to the Church Fathers.

Blessings
 
No, I believe in the book of Bel , Enoch saves Daniel from the Lions den, when Daniel who wrote the Book of Daniel says otherwise. I believe the Book of Daniel to be a canonical the Book of Bel . I say this because of the prohetic accuracy of Daniel.
 
Re:

Orthodox Christian said:
[quote="Cure of Ars":2v1uupjd]
This is a CRITICAL issue that should be discussed!


You’re still a troublemaker


[quote:2v1uupjd]Anyways I dont quite understand the Othodox Flip mode as of yet!

Catholics from the west side make the sign of the cross touching the left shoulder and then the right shoulder. Those from the east side make the sign of the cross touching their right shoulder and then their left. Its kinda like gangster signs for old school Christians to know what set your claiming. (hehehe) So with a mirror I would be showing an eastern sign of the cross flip mode. Capeesh?[/quote:2v1uupjd]
I'm with that

Look at Jesus throw up this "East Side" sign
pantokrator.JPG



And just look at this bling

alexei-ii-patriarch-01.jpg
[/quote:2v1uupjd]
Just look at this bling :rolling :rolling :toofunny :toofunny I am laughing so hard, I am in tears :crying :rolling :rolling
 
I don't think very many people consider the process by which the Bible came about to be something infallible (and if they do, I would wonder how much they know about it). Christians aren't like the Muslims or the Mormons who claim they have the exact word of God that came down from heaven via an angel or golden tablets, or whatever. Humans wrote books inspired by God, though we have to figure out which of those books were inspired by God.

I have recently begun reading the apocrypha with the intent of seeing if perhaps any of these books belong in the cannon (it has been quite interesting). I've only read Tobit, Judith, the additions to Esther, and bits of the Wisdom of Solomon thus far. In the case of Tobit and Judith, I feel that they are almost certainly fiction stories.

Tobit begins in the first person, then shifts abruptly to the third person. There isn't anything really wrong about this, except it is quite awkward to me because Tobit is busy describing in very minute detail his righteousness (imagine Job describing how he acted, with a very proud voice- this is how Tobit opens, and I couldn't help but be reminded of the man who prayed "God, thank you that I am not like the sinners"). When reading this I was trying to think of reasons why it could possibly be written like this, and the only reason plausible explanation was "for entertainment value." I suppose perhaps there may be better reasons than this, but I couldn't figure any out. In Sarah, the woman who eventually marries Tobit's son Tobias, there is supposedly a demon who killed her first seven husbands the day of their marriage. I do not think God would allow a demon to have this much power over a person- compare this to Job, where even Satan is not allowed to strike Job down. At some point Tobit is blinded, and an angel basically tells Tobias how to drive out the demon and cure the blindness with parts of a fish. This seemed almost magical/alchemical in nature- the implication in the text it was the fish parts that accomplished the healing/exorcism, whereas in most other miracles the means by which the miracle are accomplished have very little to do with the healing except the person had faith in it. To me, this story feels like the author began with Job as the basic story outline, and then just added whatever he felt like to make a good story. Of course, one could argue whether Job is a parable or actually happened, but either way Job has a lot of utility as scripture. I don't think the same is particularly true of Tobit (feel free to disagree).

Judith has several major inconsistencies which lead me to believe that it was written by a very inattentive author attempting to make a good story. The city of Bethulia is under siege, and they run out of water rations. Judith manages to convince the leaders to let her (and one of her servants) out of the city so she might let God work through her and turn back the enemy. The first thing she does (after praying to God to let her deceit bring down the enemy) is go take a bath. While everyone else has been fainting from lack of water. Something is seriously amiss here. Either the author just glossed over this fact when writing the story, or Judith was letting everyone else practically die to make herself look pretty. She also seems to have a fair bit of wine stashed away too, so it wasn't just water either. She's a widow who essentially dresses up as finely as she can to parade in front of foreign men- while she lies to them so "God can have a great victory." To me, this all points toward fiction- this story sounds an awful lot like Jael's story, only with a lot of embellishment. I can't think of any other great victories God won through someone lying (Jacob got Esau's blessing through deceit, Abraham was deceitful about his wife, but God blessed these people in spite of their lack of faith, not because of).

As far as the additions to Esther go, they were added in the Greek and weren't in the original Hebrew. There isn't really much to say here, other than the Greek contradicts the Hebrew at times, and it almost certainly shouldn't be there.

Wisdom of Solomon was probably not written by Solomon, although this in itself isn't reason to discard it. I haven't really read much of it yet (the first few chapters), but I will say that I don't really read the "prophecy" in the second chapter as being about Jesus specifically. Taken by itself, verses 12-24 seem to refer to Jesus, but I take verse 10 to indicate that this is in reference to a generic righteous man and not to Jesus specifically (especially if you continue reading into chapter 3- "But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God"). Compare it to Isaiah where there are very specific things that are mentioned. One could argue that chapter 2 of Wisdom of Solomon applied to most prophets that died at the hands of the Israelites, with the exception of calling themselves "child of the Lord." That's my position at the moment, though that might change as I read more of the book.

As far as why any of these books were ever in the Bible to begin with, I think the typical Christian belief is that the Old Testament commandments are still valid where the New reaffirms it. You won't find quotation from any of the apocryphal books in the New Testament, although the writing may echo some of them (Romans and Wisdom, 2 Corinthians and Wisdom, James and Sirach). As such, any damage that having these books in the Bible could cause are somewhat minimal. I would be far more worried about the cannon of the New Testament.
 
zer0das said:
I don't think very many people consider the process by which the Bible came about to be something infallible (and if they do, I would wonder how much they know about it). Christians aren't like the Muslims or the Mormons who claim they have the exact word of God that came down from heaven via an angel or golden tablets, or whatever. Humans wrote books inspired by God, though we have to figure out which of those books were inspired by God.

I have recently begun reading the apocrypha with the intent of seeing if perhaps any of these books belong in the cannon (it has been quite interesting). I've only read Tobit, Judith, the additions to Esther, and bits of the Wisdom of Solomon thus far. In the case of Tobit and Judith, I feel that they are almost certainly fiction stories.

Tobit begins in the first person, then shifts abruptly to the third person. There isn't anything really wrong about this, except it is quite awkward to me because Tobit is busy describing in very minute detail his righteousness (imagine Job describing how he acted, with a very proud voice- this is how Tobit opens, and I couldn't help but be reminded of the man who prayed "God, thank you that I am not like the sinners"). When reading this I was trying to think of reasons why it could possibly be written like this, and the only reason plausible explanation was "for entertainment value." I suppose perhaps there may be better reasons than this, but I couldn't figure any out. In Sarah, the woman who eventually marries Tobit's son Tobias, there is supposedly a demon who killed her first seven husbands the day of their marriage. I do not think God would allow a demon to have this much power over a person- compare this to Job, where even Satan is not allowed to strike Job down. At some point Tobit is blinded, and an angel basically tells Tobias how to drive out the demon and cure the blindness with parts of a fish. This seemed almost magical/alchemical in nature- the implication in the text it was the fish parts that accomplished the healing/exorcism, whereas in most other miracles the means by which the miracle are accomplished have very little to do with the healing except the person had faith in it. To me, this story feels like the author began with Job as the basic story outline, and then just added whatever he felt like to make a good story. Of course, one could argue whether Job is a parable or actually happened, but either way Job has a lot of utility as scripture. I don't think the same is particularly true of Tobit (feel free to disagree).

Judith has several major inconsistencies which lead me to believe that it was written by a very inattentive author attempting to make a good story. The city of Bethulia is under siege, and they run out of water rations. Judith manages to convince the leaders to let her (and one of her servants) out of the city so she might let God work through her and turn back the enemy. The first thing she does (after praying to God to let her deceit bring down the enemy) is go take a bath. While everyone else has been fainting from lack of water. Something is seriously amiss here. Either the author just glossed over this fact when writing the story, or Judith was letting everyone else practically die to make herself look pretty. She also seems to have a fair bit of wine stashed away too, so it wasn't just water either. She's a widow who essentially dresses up as finely as she can to parade in front of foreign men- while she lies to them so "God can have a great victory." To me, this all points toward fiction- this story sounds an awful lot like Jael's story, only with a lot of embellishment. I can't think of any other great victories God won through someone lying (Jacob got Esau's blessing through deceit, Abraham was deceitful about his wife, but God blessed these people in spite of their lack of faith, not because of).

As far as the additions to Esther go, they were added in the Greek and weren't in the original Hebrew. There isn't really much to say here, other than the Greek contradicts the Hebrew at times, and it almost certainly shouldn't be there.

Wisdom of Solomon was probably not written by Solomon, although this in itself isn't reason to discard it. I haven't really read much of it yet (the first few chapters), but I will say that I don't really read the "prophecy" in the second chapter as being about Jesus specifically. Taken by itself, verses 12-24 seem to refer to Jesus, but I take verse 10 to indicate that this is in reference to a generic righteous man and not to Jesus specifically (especially if you continue reading into chapter 3- "But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God"). Compare it to Isaiah where there are very specific things that are mentioned. One could argue that chapter 2 of Wisdom of Solomon applied to most prophets that died at the hands of the Israelites, with the exception of calling themselves "child of the Lord." That's my position at the moment, though that might change as I read more of the book.

As far as why any of these books were ever in the Bible to begin with, I think the typical Christian belief is that the Old Testament commandments are still valid where the New reaffirms it. You won't find quotation from any of the apocryphal books in the New Testament, although the writing may echo some of them (Romans and Wisdom, 2 Corinthians and Wisdom, James and Sirach). As such, any damage that having these books in the Bible could cause are somewhat minimal. I would be far more worried about the cannon of the New Testament.
Not a bad study, you did.
 
The Bible is not inerrant. A few verses are interpolations. There are also minor contradictions- i.e, was the stone rolled away when the disciples came to the tomb, or was it rolled away as they watched? The accounts differ. Matthew's "graves were opened, walking dead" story never seemed right to me and it is surprising no other narrator would mention the resurrection of thousands. I believe he heard it, believed it and reported it in good faith. It may or may not be true.

Mark 16 was probably added to what Mark originally wrote. Call me a heretic

But as the agnostic Durant wrote, these are minutae. He wrote, "That a few simple men would have invented [Jesus] in one generation would be a miracle greater than anything recorded in the Gospels."

People will ask, "Well then how do we know what's true and what isn't?" The answer is that they who seek will find and they won't let such minutae stop them. The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth. If you have a sincere doubt about some verse, God will still talk to you. He won't talk to you if you are just looking for witches. He well knows our true motives.

The great beauty of the NT is that if you are l0oking for truth you will find it and if you are looking for excuses, you will find those too. I love it

Rad
 
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