The Pure in Heart

[Degas]

Once we purify our hearts according to His word, then we can easily love Him with all the heart and one another with a pure heart

This doesn't make any sense for it would mean that:
1- we can purify our hearts
2- moreover, we can purify our hearts with our minds -- with which we understand God's words

Truth is, only God can purify our hearts and They do so when we have a spiritual practice. As inspiring as reading the Bible can be, it doesn't purify our hearts. Actually, someone could spend a lifetime reading the Bible for height hours daily, someone could even know the Bible by rote, they still wouldn't have a pure heart; on the other hand, someone could never read the Bible and, thanks to spiritual practice, become pure hearted.

The error of many Christians, such as myself for two decades of faith in Jesus, is not thinking Scripturally and Spiritually between faith and works of faith:

Works of faith do not promote spiritual growth; they are the fruits of spiritual growth. Now faith doesn't promote spiritual growth either, just like knowing exercise is good for health doesn't make anyone healthier. Knowing exercise is good for health only gives the motivation to exercise but exercise alone gives benefits in terms of health. In the same way, faith merely gives the motivation to be closer to God but what makes us closer to God is spiritual practice alone.

This is what "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" (Matthew 22:37) really means. It doesn't mean we should read the Bible and abide by God's Law. What it really means is that we should have a spiritual practice. When we are in love with someone, we don't want to do their bidding like a dog does its master's. When we are in love with someone, we definitely are not satisfied with reading the book they wrote. When we are in love with someone, we may like talking about them but this is definitely not enough. When we are in love with someone, what we want most of all is spend time with them. In the same way, to love God means to spend time with God e.g. pray, commune, sing praises, etc. Jesus tells us this is the most important.

 

[WIP]

Works of faith do not promote spiritual growth; they are the fruits of spiritual growth. Now faith doesn't promote spiritual growth either, just like knowing exercise is good for health doesn't make anyone healthier. Knowing exercise is good for health only gives the motivation to exercise but exercise alone gives benefits in terms of health. In the same way, faith merely gives the motivation to be closer to God but what makes us closer to God is spiritual practice alone.

I think I can agree with your first sentence, but, I'm not so sure I can agree with your definition of faith as merely giving the motivation to be closer to God. I think you're describing a desire or calling but not faith itself. I relate faith to trust or belief. I believe having faith in God means one trusts God and knows without any doubt that any thing is possible with God.

Psalm 23 is a good example of faith. David doesn't speak of a motivation or desire to fear no evil or dwell in the house of the Lord. He speaks of something that he knows to be true.

1 The Lord is my shepherd;
I shall not want.
2 He makes me to lie down in green pastures;
He leads me beside the still waters.
3 He restores my soul;
He leads me in the paths of righteousness
for His name’s sake.
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil;
for You are with me;
Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies;
You anoint my head with oil;
my cup runs over.
6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
all the days of my life;
and I will dwell in the house of the Lord
Forever.
Psalm 23 NKJV

Here's an example where Jesus talks about faith and how it is a complete assurance or absolute trust.
22 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Have faith in God.
23 For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says.
24 Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them."
Mark 11:22-24 NKJV

 

[Degas]

WIP Fine by me! Now, with your definition or understanding of faith, not a single human being on Earth currently has any faith since no one can move mountains. I was using the word 'faith' in a broader sense and I guess it is the way most Christians use it.

 

[eddif]

WIP Fine by me! Now, with your definition or understanding of faith, not a single human being on Earth currently has any faith since no one can move mountains. I was using the word 'faith' in a broader sense and I guess it is the way most Christians use it.

Luke 18:7 kjv
7. And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
8. I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
9. And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

Faith may be hard to find, but a humble person gets help from God.

The people in Ezekiel that grieved over the sins of Israel
/ Jerusalem, were protected from the destruction of Jerusalem. They were sent out of country and given a sanctuary during the 400 years of silence.

eddif

 

[WIP]

WIP Fine by me! Now, with your definition or understanding of faith, not a single human being on Earth currently has any faith since no one can move mountains. I was using the word 'faith' in a broader sense and I guess it is the way most Christians use it.

I don't believe this is accurate either. You sound like a politician restating what I wrote to the extreme rather than just taking it at face value. It really doesn't matter what most Christians think. What really matters is what God says.

I did not say or imply that nobody has ANY faith. I said that I believe faith is more than just a desire to do something. Faith is knowing it can be done without doubt. Read again my reference to Mark 11 and you can see that the reason we cannot move mountains is because our faith is not complete. We have doubts.

There are levels of faith. What did Jesus say? I don't think it is going too far out on a limb to say that Jesus' disciples had much more faith than either you or me. When His disciples were unable to cast a demon from a boy, He said it was because of their unbelief or lack of faith. And then He told them,
20 "If you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you."
Matthew 17:20 NKJV

Again, when He appeared to His disciples walking on water, Peter got out of the boat and began to walk toward Him on the water, but then his faith faltered so he began to sink. When he cried out to the Lord, Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?”
Matthew 14:31 NKJV

Jesus didn't say Peter had no faith. He said he had little faith.

 

[Degas]

WIP It looks like the discussion drifted to a discussion about a definition of faith but what I said is that having faith doesn't help anyone grow spiritually apart from giving us the inspiration to be closer to God and you answered

I'm not so sure I can agree with your definition of faith as merely giving the motivation to be closer to God

So how do you think faith makes us grow spiritually apart from giving us the inspiration to be closer to God?

 

[WIP]

faith merely gives the motivation to be closer to God but what makes us closer to God is spiritual practice alone.

Here's the definition of faith that you posted in the words you used. So I'll ask you, what is the basis of your claim?

 

[Degas]

Here's the definition of faith that you posted in the words you used. So I'll ask you, what is the basis of your claim?

I didn't define faith! I just said it doesn't promote spiritual growth except by inspiring us to grow, just like believing that exercice is good for you is not good for you. Exercise is. Can't you just acknowledge the difference between the guy who says exercise is good but doesn't exercise and the guy who does exercise?

 

[WIP]

I didn't define faith! I just said it doesn't promote spiritual growth except by inspiring us to grow, just like believing that exercice is good for you is not good for you. Exercise is. Can't you just acknowledge the difference between the guy who says exercise is good but doesn't exercise and the guy who does exercise?

I guess I'm not going to argue with you, especially when you deny saying the words you wrote. If you don't believe what you wrote then there's no point. Have a good day.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Luke 8:15 "But the seed on the good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop." - This heart will follow God's word and not lose faith in his word

John 3:19-21 "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." - If you claim you are in the light, you will reflect Christ

Good heart - do the will of God Selfless and not selfish.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

In my experience, the heart is revealed and changed by what we actually do and say. Because it is deceitful about itself (how many people have you heard describe themselves in very complimentary words that you know are untrue, for example,) it is easy to make introspection the only means by which we are changed. I’ll give an example.

Jesus said we must forgive others. He warned that if we refuse to do so, we won’t be forgiven either (fair is fair.) So one can sit in one’s room squeezing the eyes tighter and tighter in an effort to produce forgiving feelings (purifying the heart as it were) or we can get up and do something kind for the offending party. Corrie Ten Boom tells of meeting her prison guard later (a then cruel man) who asked her for forgiveness. She struggled. But when she reached out and shook his outstretched hand, forgiving grace flowed into her. Doing good to those who do
you wrong is a LOT harder than endeavoring to stir up the heart to some vague goal. But that is when God releases grace. In a word, it is called obedience, to the teachings of Christ.

 

[eddif]

In my experience, the heart is revealed and changed by what we actually do and say. Because it is deceitful about itself (how many people have you heard describe themselves in very complimentary words that you know are untrue, for example,) it is easy to make introspection the only means by which we are changed. I’ll give an example.

Jesus said we must forgive others. He warned that if we refuse to do so, we won’t be forgiven either (fair is fair.) So one can sit in one’s room squeezing the eyes tighter and tighter in an effort to produce forgiving feelings (purifying the heart as it were) or we can get up and do something kind for the offending party. Corrie Ten Boom tells of meeting her prison guard later (a then cruel man) who asked her for forgiveness. She struggled. But when she reached out and shook his outstretched hand, forgiving grace flowed into her. Doing good to those who do
you wrong is a LOT harder than endeavoring to stir up the heart to some vague goal. But that is when God releases grace. In a word, it is called obedience, to the teachings of Christ.

Ah yes:
The hidden man of the heart.

The heart, after the fall, wound up desperately wicked and deceitful above all things.
So. We love to get our whitewash out and then paint a different picture of it.

What we need is to remove the heart of stone and get a heart of flesh. Putting the law in our heart breaks up the stones in our heart. The resulting good ground allows the seed of Gods Word to bring forth much fruit.

Since Jesus was the Word made flesh and became a quickening spirit, Jesus is the solution.

Cardiac conduction system - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

That blue line hidden man is the answer. Of course it is just a symbol. When he knocks we have to invite him in to direct the heart the right way.

eddif

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Ah yes:
The hidden man of the heart.

The heart, after the fall, wound up desperately wicked and deceitful above all things.
So. We love to get our whitewash out and then paint a different picture of it.

What we need is to remove the heart of stone and get a heart of flesh. Putting the law in our heart breaks up the stones in our heart. The resulting good ground allows the seed of Gods Word to bring forth much fruit.

Since Jesus was the Word made flesh and became a quickening spirit, Jesus is the solution.

Cardiac conduction system - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

That blue line hidden man is the answer. Of course it is just a symbol. When he knocks we have to invite him in to direct the heart the right way.

eddif

I have found that when He enters He starts to clean up as evidenced in real changed behavior towards others. What does He ask, to do justly by others and to love mercy. That moves the hand of God faster than internal contemplation.

 

[eddif]

I have found that when He enters He starts to clean up as evidenced in real changed behavior towards others. What does He ask, to do justly by others and to love mercy. That moves the hand of God faster than internal contemplation.

1 Peter 3:4 kjv
4. But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

I consider myself to be a bride of Christ. If there is neither male or female then it fits me too.

If the natural human heart was corruptible then the hidden man in our heart is the non corruptible part of the equation.

Conversation is part of the surrounding verses. Screaming in someone’s face is not a part.

If it were without the Wikipedia I would guess more, but I tend to give Jesus in our heart credit for our changes. Brotherly love is to continue.

eddif

 

[RBDERRICK]

This doesn't make any sense for it would mean that:
1- we can purify our hearts
2- moreover, we can purify our hearts with our minds -- with which we understand God's words

Truth is, only God can purify our hearts and They do so when we have a spiritual practice. As inspiring as reading the Bible can be, it doesn't purify our hearts. Actually, someone could spend a lifetime reading the Bible for height hours daily, someone could even know the Bible by rote, they still wouldn't have a pure heart; on the other hand, someone could never read the Bible and, thanks to spiritual practice, become pure hearted.



Works of faith do not promote spiritual growth; they are the fruits of spiritual growth. Now faith doesn't promote spiritual growth either, just like knowing exercise is good for health doesn't make anyone healthier. Knowing exercise is good for health only gives the motivation to exercise but exercise alone gives benefits in terms of health. In the same way, faith merely gives the motivation to be closer to God but what makes us closer to God is spiritual practice alone.

This is what "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" (Matthew 22:37) really means. It doesn't mean we should read the Bible and abide by God's Law. What it really means is that we should have a spiritual practice. When we are in love with someone, we don't want to do their bidding like a dog does its master's. When we are in love with someone, we definitely are not satisfied with reading the book they wrote. When we are in love with someone, we may like talking about them but this is definitely not enough. When we are in love with someone, what we want most of all is spend time with them. In the same way, to love God means to spend time with God e.g. pray, commune, sing praises, etc. Jesus tells us this is the most important.

This doesn't make any sense for it would mean that:
1- we can purify our hearts.

Then you'll have to answer why God commands us to do, what we cannot do:

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Because if we don't obey Him and do so, then we are only Pharisees with outward religion, but not inward faith.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Thanks eddif.

Notice that Jesus said that we are not to leave the other teachings undone. We need both the faith and the action.

I'm thinking of our christian brethren that believe no action is necessary ,,, Jesus taught action corresponding to our faith.

Exactly. Which is why justification is by works and not by faith only. Both salvation and justification are by grace: by grace we can believe God, and by grace we can obey God.

Grace of God is only given to them that seek Jesus at His throne for help in time of need to obey Him and endure temptation. Grace of God is not help from judgement in times of submission to sin.

The 'heart' of the gospel of Jesus Christ is to reconcile man to God through purifying the heart first in fellowship with God, that we may walk in His steps with bodies offered to Him as living sacrifices.

Jesus Christ came to redeem man from sinning, and also to 'reform' religion from righteousness without faith.

He does so by washing our conscience clean from past sins in His own blood, and giving us His own power to purify and keep our hearts clean from lust, that our hands may be clean and free from sinning indeed.

Paul corrected serving God with the outward man only, and James corrected serving God with the inward man only.

Rom 7 is Paul empathizing with the wretched double minded, who know to do good in the mind, but do it not with the body.

The deliverance he points to is Jesus Christ, by whom James declares we are to purify our hearts first, that we be no more double minded, and so cleanse our hands from dead works.

No man can hope to obey the second great commandment, without first obeying the greatest commandment of all, to love God with all the heart.

No man can obey the first great commandment with lust remaining in the heart.

Seeking to love our neighbors with hearts of lust is the religion of man that Jesus died on the cross to abolish.

Man seeking to enter into the paradise of God and eat of the tree of life, by good he does with hearts of lust, still has the flaming sword standing guard at the door, which no man can enter through but by the blood and power of the Lamb of God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

So true.


Following His teachings and commandments are the way of love; loving our gracious Lord and our brothers and sisters.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

• His commandments are not burdensome.

If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 15:14



I guess the question we should ask ourselves is… Do we love the Lord?





JLB

Which is answered with a sure yes, when we know we are doing His word:

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Which begins within the heart.

No man can know the true blessing of the mind freed from vanity and lust, to be stayed on Him only, until they believe with the heart, that with Jesus they can do all things, including purifying the heart to have His mind on earth, as it is in heaven.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I'd like to say that many years ago I understood something that is important to understand in our Christian walk. It would seem that we are truly free when we can choose between good and evil...when we can make up our own mind about what we'd like to do in any given circumstance. It sounds like true freedom.

I've come to understand that true freedom is when we can hardly choose at all !
When we don't really want the choice anymore...Romans 6:16 we are slaves to the one to whom we present ourselves.
Is evil a good master? Our best interest is of no concern to the evil one...in fact, I'd say he delights in seeing us do his evil works. And the outcomes this produces.

True freedom is when we are free of this evil influence and can enjoy the nature we were meant to have from the beginning...a nature that is closer to God than to the other god of this world. True freedom is when we do not want to choose, but are happy to stay within the parameters God has given to us so that we could enjoy His freedom and do the least possible harm to our lives while here. True freedom is being a disciple of Jesus.

True freedom is when we do not want to choose,

Well said.

When we take up our cross and lose our life for His sake, we give back the free will He gives to every soul on earth:

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

We are to know the difference between good and evil, not to be making choices about which to do.

The choice is already made once for all, when he makes us a new creature in Him.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I don't believe this is accurate either. You sound like a politician restating what I wrote to the extreme rather than just taking it at face value. It really doesn't matter what most Christians think. What really matters is what God says.

I did not say or imply that nobody has ANY faith. I said that I believe faith is more than just a desire to do something. Faith is knowing it can be done without doubt. Read again my reference to Mark 11 and you can see that the reason we cannot move mountains is because our faith is not complete. We have doubts.

There are levels of faith. What did Jesus say? I don't think it is going too far out on a limb to say that Jesus' disciples had much more faith than either you or me. When His disciples were unable to cast a demon from a boy, He said it was because of their unbelief or lack of faith. And then He told them,
20 "If you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you."
Matthew 17:20 NKJV

Again, when He appeared to His disciples walking on water, Peter got out of the boat and began to walk toward Him on the water, but then his faith faltered so he began to sink. When he cried out to the Lord, Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?”
Matthew 14:31 NKJV

Jesus didn't say Peter had no faith. He said he had little faith.

It really doesn't matter what most Christians think. What really matters is what God says.

You are a rare one indeed. I believe part of being the 'few' is to first learn that God's word is to change our thoughts and imaginations and beliefs, not the other way around.

When we can allow a treasured belief to be changed by Scripture, then we can allow God to change our entire lives.

And you can see that the reason we cannot move mountains is because our faith is not complete. We have doubts.

And yet the one faith we live by is much more important than faith to do miracles by:

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Complete faith makes us whole first.

Faith for healing etc...has it's place with the body, but if we're not living it with the heart, then it does no good for the soul.

And those seeking God and faith in miracles and signs and wonders are the ones more readily decieved:

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

The devil has his own servants transformed into apostles with real miracles and wonders to behold, but they are lying to people that they are of God.

Any man convinced of God by such things of sight, will be convinced Satan is God, and will be obeying his lying apostles as that of Christ.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The elect who care less about what we as Christians think, and more about what God says in Scripture, will not be decieved by any lying wonder on earth, nor in heaven, nor falling from above:

And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Before the Lord returns as lightening, the devil will make his appearance as fire in the sky.

For we walk by faith, not by sight.

 

[RBDERRICK]

In my experience, the heart is revealed and changed by what we actually do and say. Because it is deceitful about itself (how many people have you heard describe themselves in very complimentary words that you know are untrue, for example,) it is easy to make introspection the only means by which we are changed. I’ll give an example.

Jesus said we must forgive others. He warned that if we refuse to do so, we won’t be forgiven either (fair is fair.) So one can sit in one’s room squeezing the eyes tighter and tighter in an effort to produce forgiving feelings (purifying the heart as it were) or we can get up and do something kind for the offending party. Corrie Ten Boom tells of meeting her prison guard later (a then cruel man) who asked her for forgiveness. She struggled. But when she reached out and shook his outstretched hand, forgiving grace flowed into her. Doing good to those who do
you wrong is a LOT harder than endeavoring to stir up the heart to some vague goal. But that is when God releases grace. In a word, it is called obedience, to the teachings of Christ.

one can sit in one’s room squeezing the eyes tighter and tighter in an effort to produce forgiving feelings (purifying the heart as it were)... endeavoring to stir up the heart to some vague goal.

Since Scripture commands us to purify our hearts and wash within the platter first, then your example of trying to purify the heart must not be the way of the Lord to do so.

And it makes a good point of how not to do something for God.

We purify our hearts from lust and thought for sin and doing evil to our neighbor.

We do not purify our heart by trying to think good. Scriptural purity of heart is not by the power of positive thinking.

When we purify our hearts from evil, then our hearts and minds are free to believe God and do good.

So long as lust remains in the heart, we will be battling whether to do good or evil, knowing to do good with the mind, but choosing to do evil instead.

or we can get up and do something kind for the offending party.

The reformation of religion by the blood of the Lamb includes doing good deeds, while yet having lust in the heart to do sins elsewhere.

We cannot possible obey the second great commandment, until we are obeying the first with a pure heart, purged and freed from lust of the world.

Good deeds are good to do, and any neighbor will be thankful for them, but they do not save the soul alone.

The outward never purifies the inward, even though such things can soothe the soul, else Christ died in vain.

Corrie Ten Boom tells of meeting her prison guard later (a then cruel man) who asked her for forgiveness. She struggled. But when she reached out and shook his outstretched hand, forgiving grace flowed into her.

Flowing grace occurs when the Spirit bears witness to the pure in heart, that the one asking forgiveness is from the heart. There are some who led me by deception down a road of near destruction for over a decade of life, costing me my career and wife, and yet if any of them were to repent and ask forgiveness, the love of God toward them would flow greater than when I idolized them in their ministry of the past.

it is called obedience, to the teachings of Christ.

Which begins within the heart: when the heart is purified first, the good deeds of righteousness of God will surely follow with ease, not being hard to do at all:

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.