The Rapture is wrong !

[Elvispelvis]

The rapture or the rupture as I call it is a myth and a fairy tale and an old wives tale.

People who are untrained and unlearned act as if they understand the Bible.

To escape the wrath to come they invent the rapture.

One simple scripture shoots down the rapture in flames!

Scripture must agree with scripture to stop people from wresting scripture.

2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

The total disregard for these Bible verses shows me people who dont understand the old testament.

How can you go before " The Judgment Seat of Christ" to receive good or bad if you already are in heaven from the rapture .

The thought that you are called away to heaven is not scriptural.

The language of 1 thes 4 is hard to be understood those that are unlearned in the old testament
wrest to their own destruction.

2Pe 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

If scripture is to agree with scripture everyone goes to the Judgment Seat of Christ to answer EVERY IDLE WORD YOU SPOKE.

How can any one fit this scripture into the rapture theory!

If you are raptured away how did you get taken to heaven before the Judgment Seat of Christ.

No where in 1 Thess 4 does it say heaven however it does say' in the air'.
"
What does" in the air" mean?

For this we have to go to the old testament and allow scripture to interpret scripture!


2 Tim 4 ;

1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge:
2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage–with great patience and careful instruction.

3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

Psa 78:5 For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

 

[DrFrank]

Re: The Timing Of The Rapture Is Crucial

Such a lengthy condemnation based on a simple misunderstanding!

The Rapture removes God's elect from the earth to the safety of heaven to escape the horrors of the Tribulation.After the Tribulation ends Jesus and those raptured return to the earth during the Second Coming to establish His Kingdom on earth for 1,000 years.It is only at the end of this time that the Judgment will occur.Here are the verses that describe this event.

Revelation 20:7-15 (Contemporary English Version)



7 At the end of the thousand years, Satan will be set free. 8 He will fool the countries of Gog and Magog, which are at the far ends of the earth, and their people will follow him into battle. They will have as many followers as there are grains of sand along the beach, 9 and they will march all the way across the earth. They will surround the camp of God's people and the city that his people love. But fire will come down from heaven and destroy the whole army. 10Then the devil who fooled them will be thrown into the lake of fire and burning sulfur. He will be there with the beast and the false prophet, and they will be in pain day and night forever and ever.
11 I saw a great white throne with someone sitting on it. Earth and heaven tried to run away, but there was no place for them to go. 12 I also saw all the dead people standing in front of that throne. Every one of them was there, no matter who they had once been. Several books were opened, and then the book of life was opened. The dead were judged by what those books said they had done. 13The sea gave up the dead people who were in it, and death and its kingdom also gave up their dead. Then everyone was judged by what they had done. 14 Afterwards, death and its kingdom were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name wasn't written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

The Rapture will occur more than 1000 years before the Judgment! I just can not understand why people are so opposed to the Bible's teaching about the rapture.Don't they think that God wants to protect His children?

 

[watchman F]

Re: The Timing Of The Rapture Is Crucial

Such a lengthy condemnation based on a simple misunderstanding!

The Rapture removes God's elect from the earth to the safety of heaven to escape the horrors of the Tribulation.After the Tribulation ends Jesus and those raptured return to the earth during the Second Coming to establish His Kingdom on earth for 1,000 years.It is only at the end of this time that the Judgment will occur.Here are the verses that describe this event.

Revelation 20:7-15 (Contemporary English Version)



7 At the end of the thousand years, Satan will be set free. 8 He will fool the countries of Gog and Magog, which are at the far ends of the earth, and their people will follow him into battle. They will have as many followers as there are grains of sand along the beach, 9 and they will march all the way across the earth. They will surround the camp of God's people and the city that his people love. But fire will come down from heaven and destroy the whole army. 10Then the devil who fooled them will be thrown into the lake of fire and burning sulfur. He will be there with the beast and the false prophet, and they will be in pain day and night forever and ever.
11 I saw a great white throne with someone sitting on it. Earth and heaven tried to run away, but there was no place for them to go. 12 I also saw all the dead people standing in front of that throne. Every one of them was there, no matter who they had once been. Several books were opened, and then the book of life was opened. The dead were judged by what those books said they had done. 13The sea gave up the dead people who were in it, and death and its kingdom also gave up their dead. Then everyone was judged by what they had done. 14 Afterwards, death and its kingdom were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name wasn't written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

The Rapture will occur more than 1000 years before the Judgment! I just can not understand why people are so opposed to the Bible's teaching about the rapture.Don't they think that God wants to protect His children?

The is sad drfrank. i believe it was you who was posting all those post on understanding Revelation. No one whop believe in the pretrib rapture should be posting anything about anybody understanding anything. Seeing as they themselves are in total confusion, and can;t grasp the simplest of biblical truths.

 

[NJBeliever]

Re: The Timing Of The Rapture Is Crucial

The is sad drfrank. i believe it was you who was posting all those post on understanding Revelation. No one whop believe in the pretrib rapture should be posting anything about anybody understanding anything. Seeing as they themselves are in total confusion, and can;t grasp the simplest of biblical truths.

Oh stop it. lol. If you understand the Biblical truths, what are your beliefs on the fruits of the spirit?

 

[jasoncran]

that's odd watchman, we have agreed and i'm a pretribber as well.

i read my bible.

 

[Vic C.]

Re: The Timing Of The Rapture Is Crucial

The is sad drfrank. i believe it was you who was posting all those post on understanding Revelation. No one whop believe in the pretrib rapture should be posting anything about anybody understanding anything. Seeing as they themselves are in total confusion, and can;t grasp the simplest of biblical truths.

Oh stop it. lol. If you understand the Biblical truths, what are your beliefs on the fruits of the spirit?

Lets stay on topic. Thanks.

 

[Theofilus]

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.(Rev. 20:1-5 NIV)

People say that the dead in Christ shall rise first, before those who are still alive at the rapture. But how can that happen either before or in the middle of the tribulation when the first resurrection isn't until after the tribulation?

 

[NJBeliever]

Re: The Timing Of The Rapture Is Crucial

[quote="watchman F":mh7ogyma] The is sad drfrank. i believe it was you who was posting all those post on understanding Revelation. No one whop believe in the pretrib rapture should be posting anything about anybody understanding anything. Seeing as they themselves are in total confusion, and can;t grasp the simplest of biblical truths.

Oh stop it. lol. If you understand the Biblical truths, what are your beliefs on the fruits of the spirit?

Lets stay on topic. Thanks. [/quote:mh7ogyma]

We should do all things by the Spirit bro. I know this is eschatology (and you probably can tell I am for discussing eschatology), but we should still be Christians to each other. God bless.

 

[freeway]

elivs says:

The rapture or the rupture as I call it is a myth and a fairy tale and an old wives tale.

So you say, just because you choose to believe different, make those that do not believe the way you do less of a chrisitain? sad for you..

People who are untrained and unlearned act as if they understand the Bible.

Well I'm open for learning anytime, but why should I listen to you? who made you the master of the scriptures?

To escape the wrath to come they invent the rapture.

Invent? how funny!

One simple scripture shoots down the rapture in flames!

I suppose the scripture that follow is the one that shoots down the rapture?

Scripture must agree with scripture to stop people from wresting scripture.

umh, well I have to agree here.. but not the same interpentation of the scriptures.

2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
This is a reward issue not a salvation issue, the berma seat of Christ is for believers only, not who had the right interpentation of the rapture, and the rapture is not a salvation issue anyway. Now the Great White Throne jugement is for non- christians. I will not be there. and that is at the end of the 1000 yr mil..

The total disregard for these Bible verses shows me people who dont understand the old testament.

funny, I could say the same about you...

How can you go before " The Judgment Seat of Christ" to receive good or bad if you already are in heaven from the rapture .

You need to study the bible a little harder and stop being hung up on who has the rapture right or wrong. the rapture is not a problem for me, lets see, I pray for a pre but plan for a post. anyone should..

The thought that you are called away to heaven is not scriptural.

By your interpentation again..

 

[freeway]

elvis again:

The language of 1 thes 4 is hard to be understood those that are unlearned in the old testament
wrest to their own destruction.

again funny, teach me, you seem to have the answers, so you say.

2Pe 3:16 As also in all epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

How is this in anyway connected to the rapture, The blind (unbelievers) will not understand scriptures, they will call us fools... "do they not"

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Again non believers, that God that His Son gave himself for our sins, that we will not be accounted them at the berma seat of Christ... "christians". remember the GWThore is for the non believers.

If scripture is to agree with scripture everyone goes to the Judgment Seat of Christ to answer EVERY IDLE WORD YOU SPOKE.

We are saved by Grace and Grace only, we cannot add one ounce to our salvation, praise Jesus or non of us would make it.. "true or not?'

How can any one fit this scripture into the rapture theory!

Looks like to me you are trying to do that, these scriptures has nothing to do with the rapture.

If you are raptured away how did you get taken to heaven before the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Friend you need to study the bible a little more. Have you heard of the wedding feast of the Lamb.

No where in 1 Thess 4 does it say heaven however it does say' in the air'.

But it does say that when Jesus returns he will gather his elect from the four corners of heaven, not earth.. but you can interpet that anyway you want.

"What does" in the air" mean?

Air, the space between heaven and earth..

 

[freeway]

and lastly form elvis;

2 Tim 4 ;

1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge:
2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage–with great patience and careful instruction.

3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

Psa 78:5 For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

I'm sorry but to me this is talking about false teachers, false christ, who will lead people astray " away from salvation, not the rapture, again rapture is not a salvation issue...

 

[Elvispelvis]

freeway said;

2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
This is a reward issue not a salvation issue, the berma seat of Christ is for believers only, not who had the right interpentation of the rapture, and the rapture is not a salvation issue anyway. Now the Great White Throne jugement is for non- christians. I will not be there. and that is at the end of the 1000 yr mil..

Craig said;
Thanks for your time in posting answers.

I have a few questions that arise from your comments.

What is the berma seat of christ.?

What is the Great white throne? What verses are you quoting for these comments.?

Are you saying that there is no Judgment Seat of Christ when he returns everybody is saved?

Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? These are Christians being rejected! Because they did it in Jesus name they prove they are Christians.

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth

So explain to me again how there is no judgment seat when Jesus returns.

Explain how, using scripture the people are raptured before the judgment seat?

Can you prove your statement there is no judgment when Jesus returns using scripture to prove your point.?

 

[watchman F]

that's odd watchman, we have agreed and i'm a pretribber as well.

i read my bible.

I believe pretribber can have some truth, but no one searching for truth in the subject of the rapture with a pure heart of believing whatever the bible says can study this subject and remain a pretribber. The bible is as clear on this subject as on any subject in the bible. The rapture occurs at the post trib 2nd coming.

 

[freeway]

Craig said;
Thanks for your time in posting answers.
I have a few questions that arise from your comments.

What is the berma seat of christ.?

The bema seat is the seat of the Judge (Christ) that gives out rewards, this seat is not a salvation judgement seat. As the word trinity is not found in the bible the phrase bema is also not found in our bible but eluded to in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, The ideal of bema seat is from the Olympians where at the end of the race the rewards where handed out. You will find the word bema seat all throughout Christian preaching. Believe I am not the first to use this phrase. The word for “Judgment seat†in the Greek is “Bemaâ€

What is the Great white throne? What verses are you quoting for these comments.?

Answer: The great white throne judgment is described in Revelation 20:11-15 and is the final judgment prior to the lost being cast into the lake of fire. We know from Revelation 20:7-15 that this judgment will take place after the millennium and after Satan, the beast, and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:7-10). The books that are opened (Revelation 20:12) contain records of everyone’s deeds, whether they are good or evil, because God knows everything that has ever been said, done, or even thought, and He will reward or punish each one accordingly (Psalm 28:4; 62:12; Romans 2:6; Revelation 2:23; 18:6; 22:12). The ones in this Judgement are non believers that where brought out of hell to show them why they are there and then cast out in outer darkness. Hell, lake of fire, the place that I never want to visit.
Footnote the above quote is from gotquestions.org

Are you saying that there is no Judgment Seat of Christ when he returns everybody is saved?

No not at all, When Christ return to the Mount of Olives. At this “that†time everyone that is alive at that time believer and non- believer will be gather before him. Jesus will separate the sheep (Christians) on his right and the goats (non believers) on his left. The sheep will enter the 1000 yr millennium and repopulate the world. The goats on the left will be the ones Jesus says to “I never knew you†and will be cast into hell
And then at the end of the 1000 yrs, these along with all the other non Christians will be brought before the Great White Throne for the last judgement.

 

[freeway]

Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

See above post I answer this question.

[quoteM]at 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? These are Christians being rejected! Because they did it in Jesus name they prove they are Christians.[/quote]
Believe me there are a lot of people that say their Christians, I cannot tell the difference. No one but Jesus can tell the true believer, other than their works, although their works do not lead to salvation. Their works are the after effects of their salvation.

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Again same here lots of people are going to feel good, make me happy, all about getting ahead in life churches, the world is full of them… you know that!

Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.

Again people with a Christian mask on along with those that just flatly refuse to follow Jesus.

 

[freeway]

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Same again…

Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Same again

So explain to me again how there is no judgment seat when Jesus returns.

Never said that there was no judgement at the second coming, if I eluded to it sorry.

Explain how, using scripture the people are raptured before the judgment seat?

Just like the word trinity is not found, The word "rapture" comes from Paul's "caught up" remark . The words "caught up" are translated from the Greek word harpazo, which means "to carry off," "snatch up," or "grasp hastily." The translation from harpazo to "rapture" involved two steps: first, harpazo became the Latin word raptus; second, raptus became the English word "rapture."
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thess, 4:16-18).
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality" (1 Cor. 15:51-53).

Can you prove your statement there is no judgment when Jesus returns using scripture to prove your point.?

There is a separation of sheep and goats at the second coming, the beast, antichrist and false prophet are judged then and there and cast into the lake of fire. The non believer are judged then and also cast into the abyss, and brought back out at the end of the 1000 yr for the final judgement. Can explain more but I think you already know this.

Now let me ask you a question? Do you know how the wedding for a Jewish man and woman was brought about, the tradition involved? How the grooms father was involved, the blowing of the trumpets, the father telling the son when to go get his new bride. This is history and you said you have to understand history or the old testament to understand the new testament, now I ask you do you know?

 

[freeway]

that's odd watchman, we have agreed and i'm a pretribber as well.

i read my bible.

I believe pretribber can have some truth, but no one searching for truth in the subject of the rapture with a pure heart of believing whatever the bible says can study this subject and remain a pretribber. The bible is as clear on this subject as on any subject in the bible. The rapture occurs at the post trib 2nd coming.

Sorry been studying for over 30 years and still am and always will be a pretribber, unless of course I'm here for the 7 year trib.....

 

[watchman F]

I believe pretribber can have some truth, but no one searching for truth in the subject of the rapture with a pure heart of believing whatever the bible says can study this subject and remain a pretribber. The bible is as clear on this subject as on any subject in the bible. The rapture occurs at the post trib 2nd coming.

Sorry been studying for over 30 years and still am and always will be a pretribber, unless of course I'm here for the 7 year trib.....

you actually proved my point. Even though you have been studying for 30 years, it is not to learn the truth, whatever that truth may be. It is only to sift through so you can better support your already decided upon doctrine.

If you were to ever step back and study it from a fresh neutral out look you would come to a post trib conclusion

 

[freeway]

[quote="watchman F":3dpkzqrq]

I believe pretribber can have some truth, but no one searching for truth in the subject of the rapture with a pure heart of believing whatever the bible says can study this subject and remain a pretribber. The bible is as clear on this subject as on any subject in the bible. The rapture occurs at the post trib 2nd coming.

Sorry been studying for over 30 years and still am and always will be a pretribber, unless of course I'm here for the 7 year trib.....

you actually proved my point. Even though you have been studying for 30 years, it is not to learn the truth, whatever that truth may be. It is only to sift through so you can better support your already decided upon doctrine.

If you were to ever step back and study it from a fresh neutral out look you would come to a post trib conclusion[/quote:3dpkzqrq]
I was joking, come on you've never joke. I am and always will be pretribe, sorry if that doesn't fit your line of thinking or belief. It doesn't bother me that you don't believe as I do. As I've said before pre, mid or post is not a salvation issue. Jesus saves us by grace and grace only. Anything beyond this is works, and you know what God says about our works.
Question for you? truthfully, why do post tribers have such a huge problem with pre trib. I never worry about a post triber being lost in the scriptures, or that they are not saved just because they don't believe like I do... why is that, post triber have such a problem with pre tribers...ummm

 

[Elvispelvis]

Thanks freeway for your thoughtful Answers but here is my problem trying to understand this:

Freeway said;
No not at all, When Christ return to the Mount of Olives. At this “that†time everyone that is alive at that time believer and non- believer will be gather before him. Jesus will separate the sheep (Christians) on his right and the goats (non believers) on his left. The sheep will enter the 1000 yr millennium and repopulate the world. The goats on the left will be the ones Jesus says to “I never knew you†and will be cast into hell

Craig:
According to custom and tradition the rapture took place before Jesus returns to the Mt of Olives to
separate the sheep and the goats.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

I hope you can see my problem those that are dead and those alive go together.

The bible says that the living shall not precede those that are dead.

Okay so we have the tribulation taking away the people with the dead before christ's return?

If only the believers are taken then who are they and how did they get chosen to be raptured ?

If they are raptured then the Angels had to decide who to pick to get raptured and who does not get raptured!

The only way they could decide this is by discerning those worthy and those unworthy!

This is the only way the Angels could decide who is to be raptured they have to judge them first!

You say Jesus judges between the sheep and goats, but thats not judgment?

You are confusing me!

You say the goats are not judged but they are sent to Hell!

Confusing again!

You say Jesus gathers the sheep and goats together to give them a reward or punishment but thats not judgment.

If I was one of the goats and was sent to hell I would certainly say I had been judged and found wanting! If I was one of the sheep entering the kingdom I would know I had been judged and found faithful.!
You say the word bema is not in the bible, you say the word trinity is not in the bible!


Deu 4:1 ¶ Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do [them], that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.

Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

When you start adding to the word you are cursed with a curse be very careful!

The old testament is full of future events, prophecy.
Please study the old testament.