The Rapture is wrong !

[freeway]

Craig, first off I want to say that I truly enjoy talking about the rapture, salvation, end times and evolution. I often find that it can get bogged down and rehashed over and over in forums like this. In person I will take all day.
So with that said I will try to keep my answer to a minimum. Here goes…
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on in corruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality" (1 Cor. 15:51-53).

Now if this happen where we are all changed into immortals at the end of the 7 yr trib, like you say. If we are all taken up to meet Jesus then and if we are, we are told we will change from mortal to immortal “true?â€.
Then my problem is who will repopulate the world in the 1000 yr. The bible does not say “some†at the end of the 7yr “by your thinking†but all will meet Jesus. Then also who are the sheep standing before Jesus. The goats yes I get that they are the non- believers and are distended for hell and the lake of fire.
You see the last trump the post tribbers refer to is not the same trump at the end of the 7 yr trib. And here is why.
Mat: 24:36 “But as for that day and hour no one knows it – not even the angels in heaven – except the Father alone. 24:37 For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. 24:38 For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. 24:39 And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.

Here Jesus is talking about how it will be just like the days of Noah, The days of Noah no one knew about the flood coming and they where not ready and couth off guard and perished. Like was as normal, like Jesus said.
Now at the second coming. When you see the antichrist sign a treaty or enforce a treaty that is all ready in place, at that time, God’s clock for the Jews begins again for the final 7 yrs of Satan rule and the 7 yrs the Jews owe to God. As spoken of by Daniel. Now when this clock starts again, you have 7 yrs. 1260 day into this agreement the AC will break his promise with the jews and insert the abomination of desolation. Then we have another 1260 day before we can look and watch for Jesus coming. There will appear a sign of the Son of Man’s coming.
Now during these 7 yrs, remember 2 thirds of the world population has been killed, all vegetation is dead, the oceans of the world are blood, the fresh water in the river etc are wormwood. A 200,000,000 man army is marching toward Israel along with all the other army of the AC for the battle of Armageddon. An earthquake has leveled all the mountain of the world and all Island have sunk to the ocean floor.
Now to think like is normal and people are just going about their everyday life and just toasting with a can of beer and BBQ in the back yard and swimming as life is “now†normal.
Then I ask you ? in you mind what is normal to you, If you see you family members before you being beheaded! Are you thinking this is life at its normal pace?

 

[veteran]

The trump of 1 Thess.4 and the last trump of 1 Cor.15 are the same trump, because both chapters are about the raising of the dead. In John 5 our Lord showed at the resurrection, both the just and unjust are resurrected at the same time.

On that last trump this is what happens...

Isa 25:6-8
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
(KJV)

That's the twinkling of an eye change Apostle Paul was talking about on the last trump of 1 Cor.15.

Rev.20 shows the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" is ON EARTH. In Rev.22:14-15, Christ defines where the separation point is between His sheep and the goats. His sheep are inside the gates of the city, while the goats are outside it.

The idea that Christ's gathering of His saints will be somewhere away from the earth is not Biblical. It's a doctrine of men that began by not staying in God's Word as written, totally disregarding the Scripture evidence of the heavenly being revealed to all upon the earth at Christ's coming.

That's what the removal of that "vail" of Isaiah 25 is about, and it is a covering spread over all peoples and nations for this present world. It's going to be removed, and then all peoples will see, the just and unjust. And as there has been a place of separation in the heavenly between God's abode and Satan's abode, that kind of separation will exist here on earth after that vail is removed.

That makes any earth re-population ideas sound silly, which is actually a mark of doctrines of men, especially of those pushing the Pre-tribulation "secret rapture" lie.

 

[watchman F]

Question for you? truthfully, why do post tribers have such a huge problem with pre trib.

Because the pretrib rapture is a demonic doctrine created to lull the church to sleep, to keep us unaware, and unprepared for the time of trouble. I say awakes you who sleep for the light of god is shining upon you.

 

[freeway]

Question for you? truthfully, why do post tribers have such a huge problem with pre trib.

Because the pretrib rapture is a demonic doctrine created to lull the church to sleep, to keep us unaware, and unprepared for the time of trouble. I say awakes you who sleep for the light of god is shining upon you.

This is totally your view. Let me see, so for 30 years I've been lulled to see by pre trib doctrine. My belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior and wanting to share that good news with anyone that want to listen but in actuality I've been asleep. umm.. interesting, but sad on your part..

 

[watchman F]

Question for you? truthfully, why do post tribers have such a huge problem with pre trib.

Because the pretrib rapture is a demonic doctrine created to lull the church to sleep, to keep us unaware, and unprepared for the time of trouble. I say awakes you who sleep for the light of god is shining upon you.

This is totally your view. Let me see, so for 30 years I've been lulled to see by pre trib doctrine. My belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior and wanting to share that good news with anyone that want to listen but in actuality I've been asleep. umm.. interesting, but sad on your part..

Yes. I am glad you share the gospel, and I hope that many have come to Christ through your testimony, but I pray that your gospel did not include ''if you get saved you miss the Tribulation''. Because if so you have done those you have spoken to a grave mis-justice.

 

[freeway]

Watchman F says:
Yes. I am glad you share the gospel, and I hope that many have come to Christ through your testimony, but I pray that your gospel did not include ''if you get saved you miss the Tribulation''. Because if so you have done those you have spoken to a grave mis-justice.

The injustice would be not to tell them about Jesus, to second guess my belief would also be an injustice. Like I've said I've been studying the bible for over 30 years and I don't see it the way you do. But If everyone thought the same, what would we talk about?

 

[Elvispelvis]

freeway wrote
Question for you? truthfully, why do post tribers have such a huge problem with pre trib.

Because the pretrib rapture is a demonic doctrine created to lull the church to sleep, to keep us unaware, and unprepared for the time of trouble. I say awakes you who sleep for the light of god is shining upon you.

Craig;
Freeway has hit the nail om the head I am afraid the modern churches preach a complete pre-trib doctrine.
Once saved always saved came from this same way of thinking.

This way of thinking lulls Christians into lack of Bible study.

Most modern churches cannot answer the most simple question from the old testament.

Why should I study the bible if I am already saved is the prevalent thinking today.

The lack of Bible understanding can be traced back to this kind of thinking.
This is not a conscious happening but it shows up as I am already saved so I dont need to" work out my own salvation with fear and trembling."

2 Tim 4
1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage–with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

Sin cerley Craig

 

[Andrew]

The verses that truly shoot down a pre-trib rature are the ones that clearly indicate the persecution of the elect by the anti-christ.
You cannot persecute people who are not here.
"This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on part of the saints".
Matthew 24;
Clearly Jesus Christ our Lord states the tribulation begins with the abomination that causes desolation and that it will be dreadful for ALL. He states that these days are cut short for the sake of the elect.
The two witnesses will bring on the Great Tribulation by their testimony. Suffering leads to repentance.
The two witnesses will be their brothers keeper, "To give them their food at the proper time".

I've said it before, and I say it again; if you truly believe in a pre-trib rapture you've fallen for a lie that will shake your faith when you find yourself "Left behind", abandoned, "because you were never saved in the first place", will be the lie to tear you down.
"Those who stand firm unto the end will be saved".
I have no need to spend time quoting scripture verbatim or calling out every verse to back it up.
YOU ARE HERE, and here is where all this suffering will take place. You are not getting out of here until God Almighty takes you out of the picture.
How bad will it be?
Rev.9:6 During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

This continued debate disgusts me as much as the servants of Satan who are part of this forum.
Jesus Christ knows His sheep, He knows His elect, and all of you who are truly saved will remain under His protection FOREVER; you are eternally loved by the Almighty God. You have no need to fear those who can kill your physical bodies.

 

[watchman F]

Watchman F says:
Yes. I am glad you share the gospel, and I hope that many have come to Christ through your testimony, but I pray that your gospel did not include ''if you get saved you miss the Tribulation''. Because if so you have done those you have spoken to a grave mis-justice.

The injustice would be not to tell them about Jesus, to second guess my belief would also be an injustice. Like I've said I've been studying the bible for over 30 years and I don't see it the way you do. But If everyone thought the same, what would we talk about?

It is not about thinking the same or seeing it as I do. It is about truth. And it is there for those who have not shut there hearts off from it.

 

[David505]

I've said it before, and I say it again; if you truly believe in a pre-trib rapture you've fallen for a lie that will shake your faith when you find yourself "Left behind", abandoned, "because you were never saved in the first place", will be the lie to tear you down.

Thanks Andrew,

Good point.

When the events of Daniel's 70th Week begin to unfold, and become apparent, I think the other lie will be something like: "We can't possibly be living through the 70th Week because the Rapture hasn't happened yet."

 

[freeway]

Andrew chimes in with:

The verses that truly shoot down a pre-trib rature are the ones that clearly indicate the persecution of the elect by the anti-christ.

But fails to list any, But I know which ones you are talking about though.

Well yes, of course there will be "elect" on the earth during the 7 yr trib, the ones the 2 wittiness convert and the ones that the 144,000 jews convert, PS. A multitude that cannot be numbered
Revelation 20:4
[ The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years ] And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

You cannot persecute people who are not here.

see above answer for clarification.

Matthew 24;
Clearly Jesus Christ our Lord states the tribulation begins with the abomination that causes desolation and that it will be dreadful for ALL. He states that these days are cut short for the sake of the elect.
The two witnesses will bring on the Great Tribulation by their testimony. Suffering leads to repentance.
The two witnesses will be their brothers keeper, "To give them their food at the proper time".

Yes the time of Jacob's trouble, the second half of the tribulation, so if you are counting that 1260 day before the appearing of the sign of the Son of Man. Jesus. umm, doesn't sound like a thief in the night to me, how about you?

 

[freeway]

then andrew finish with these tid bits:

I've said it before, and I say it again; if you truly believe in a pre-trib rapture you've fallen for a lie that will shake your faith when you find yourself "Left behind", abandoned, "because you were never saved in the first place", will be the lie to tear you down.

IF and I mean IF for the sake of the topic, if I find myself here when the tribulation starts, I believe I will do just like "you" rely of Jesus to get me through, my family, friends, after all life well be just normal so says some.
"

Those who stand firm unto the end will be saved".

the saints during the tribulation, this statement is true.
I have no need to spend time quoting scripture verbatim or calling out every verse to back it up.
Maybe you should. and pray first before you post.

YOU ARE HERE, and here is where all this suffering will take place. You are not getting out of here until God Almighty takes you out of the picture.

I'm assumming your not talking about the rapture, but my death. I'm hoping for the rapture frist! :yes

How bad will it be?
Rev.9:6 During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

One little note here, does this sound like life as normal??? read what you write.

This continued debate disgusts me as much as the servants of Satan who are part of this forum.
Jesus Christ knows His sheep, He knows His elect, and all of you who are truly saved will remain under His protection FOREVER; you are eternally loved by the Almighty God. You have no need to fear those who can kill your physical bodies.

This is precious! Now we're of Satan! dude take a chill pill and come back later, I believe on this forum there are alot of good Christians, just engaging in conversations, just because you don't agree does not make us children of the devil.

Jesus, Yes he knows his elect, they are saved by the blood of Jesus, nothing else, along with who's right or wrong about the rapture or no rapture. Again this is not a salvation issue...

 

[freeway]

Watchman F says:
Yes. I am glad you share the gospel, and I hope that many have come to Christ through your testimony, but I pray that your gospel did not include ''if you get saved you miss the Tribulation''. Because if so you have done those you have spoken to a grave mis-justice.

The injustice would be not to tell them about Jesus, to second guess my belief would also be an injustice. Like I've said I've been studying the bible for over 30 years and I don't see it the way you do. But If everyone thought the same, what would we talk about?

It is not about thinking the same or seeing it as I do. It is about truth. And it is there for those who have not shut there hearts off from it.

Yes it is about the truth, God's truth, read and study a little more and you will find that God loves His children, and will not punish us along with the un-loving, Jesus hating world. sad that you think God puts us on the same level. There are many scriptures that says He will send Jesus for His bride "church" AMEN.

 

[freeway]

I've said it before, and I say it again; if you truly believe in a pre-trib rapture you've fallen for a lie that will shake your faith when you find yourself "Left behind", abandoned, "because you were never saved in the first place", will be the lie to tear you down.

Thanks Andrew,

Good point.

When the events of Daniel's 70th Week begin to unfold, and become apparent, I think the other lie will be something like: "We can't possibly be living through the 70th Week because the Rapture hasn't happened yet."

Thanks for the input dave, but my faith in Jesus will never be shaken, even if a ufo lands in my front yard....... demons :

 

[freeway]

As I have said before, this stuff get hashed and rehashed over and over, all points made, everyone has a different ideal, but that fine and good with me. Like I said this is not a salvation issue. So gentlemen it's been interesting but now I will bow out... freeway... Who was saved by the blood of the Lamb, and nothing, and I mean nothing else......... If Jesus leaves it up to me to get there, well I won't make it.. we all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God......

 

[precepts]

The verses that truly shoot down a pre-trib rature are the ones that clearly indicate the persecution of the elect by the anti-christ.

Try this one: Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

 

[Andrew]

then andrew finish with these tid bits:

I've said it before, and I say it again; if you truly believe in a pre-trib rapture you've fallen for a lie that will shake your faith when you find yourself "Left behind", abandoned, "because you were never saved in the first place", will be the lie to tear you down.

IF and I mean IF for the sake of the topic, if I find myself here when the tribulation starts, I believe I will do just like "you" rely of Jesus to get me through, my family, friends, after all life well be just normal so says some.
"[quote:2amgiepe]Those who stand firm unto the end will be saved".

the saints during the tribulation, this statement is true.
I have no need to spend time quoting scripture verbatim or calling out every verse to back it up.
Maybe you should. and pray first before you post.

YOU ARE HERE, and here is where all this suffering will take place. You are not getting out of here until God Almighty takes you out of the picture.

I'm assumming your not talking about the rapture, but my death. I'm hoping for the rapture frist! :yes

How bad will it be?
Rev.9:6 During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

One little note here, does this sound like life as normal??? read what you write.

This continued debate disgusts me as much as the servants of Satan who are part of this forum.
Jesus Christ knows His sheep, He knows His elect, and all of you who are truly saved will remain under His protection FOREVER; you are eternally loved by the Almighty God. You have no need to fear those who can kill your physical bodies.

This is precious! Now we're of Satan! dude take a chill pill and come back later, I believe on this forum there are alot of good Christians, just engaging in conversations, just because you don't agree does not make us children of the devil.

Jesus, Yes he knows his elect, they are saved by the blood of Jesus, nothing else, along with who's right or wrong about the rapture or no rapture. Again this is not a salvation issue...[/quote:2amgiepe]
I, in no way shape or form, accused the children of God of being of Satan. For you to personalize my statement and sling it back at me as if I made an accusation against you is pure distortion.
Obviously opinion and interpretation go in many directions. If I have to quote every verse to back up my statements I can, but I feel it is wasted time for those who wish to debate simply for the sake of debate.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways", declares the Lord.
Do I need to put Isaiah 55:8 here for you to know these words? If I fail to do so does it nullify the truth?
Are all mysteries revealed at this present moment? Do you understand that each and every one of us is utterly powerless? That Almighty means all things are His? That "all things" includes ALL the answers?

Debate as you will. Here's the explanation I understand;
The rapture will take place immediately after the resurrection of the dead, and it effects ONLY those still alive at Christ's return. A day to the Lord is like a thousand years and a thousand years are like a day. The Great and Dreadful DAY of the Lord will be just that, a day. He reigns today. As a beloved adopted son I reign with Him.
Study all the passages of the DAY of the Lord and it is hard to say that this age doesn't end on that day. He brings His Kingdom with Him upon His return and within that Kingdom is the new heaven and the new earth.
I'll end here with this hint;
Can any one of you say that you are not being held accountable for every single thing you've done good or bad? Is not your life playing out before you? And plan as you may, does every plan work out the way you intend?
Everything is playing out just as it was written a long long time ago.
God's will be done; as in FINISHED.
Sit back and enjoy the ride. NOTHING can separate us from the love of Christ, nor snatch us from His Mighty Hand.

 

[watchman F]

Yes it is about the truth, God's truth, read and study a little more and you will find that God loves His children, and will not punish us along with the un-loving, Jesus hating world. sad that you think God puts us on the same level. There are many scriptures that says He will send Jesus for His bride "church" AMEN.

Who said anything about punishing the church along with the wicked. I think you have a misunderstanding of what the purpose of the Church and or Tribulation is.

 

[precepts]

Definitely anti-christ teachings!

 

[Andrew]

Definitely anti-christ teachings!

Pretty vague statement. Would you care to clarify?