The rapture of the Church

[lecoop]

Yes. It is the only place in scripture where the judgement of the nations is found.

OK, So the two below are judgments by angels...not God? God has nothing to do with it. (only trying to understand what you are saying...not trying to put my own words in your text.)

I say two. The parable of the tares, and of the dragnet are speaking of the same thing. Both of these are accomplished by angels.

Matt 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matt 13:47-50
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Of course God has something to do with it, because He sends out the angels. And I am sure they go by His direction as to who is "taken" and who is left.

Coop

 

[GraceBwithU]

Yes. It is the only place in scripture where the judgement of the nations is found.

OK, So the two below are judgments by angels...not God? God has nothing to do with it. (only trying to understand what you are saying...not trying to put my own words in your text.)

I say two. The parable of the tares, and of the dragnet are speaking of the same thing. Both of these are accomplished by angels.

Matt 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matt 13:47-50
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Of course God has something to do with it, because He sends out the angels. And I am sure they go by His direction as to who is "taken" and who is left.

Coop

I'm confused...so the first two judgments where just random and were not all nations...because the words all nations was not mentioned. So why did Jesus even bother mentioning these judgments and relating them to the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[lecoop]

OK, So the two below are judgments by angels...not God? God has nothing to do with it. (only trying to understand what you are saying...not trying to put my own words in your text.)

Coop: I say two. The parable of the tares, and of the dragnet are speaking of the same thing. Both of these are accomplished by angels.

Matt 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matt 13:47-50
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

coop: Of course God has something to do with it, because He sends out the angels. And I am sure they go by His direction as to who is "taken" and who is left.


I'm confused...so the first two judgments where just random and were not all nations...because the words all nations was not mentioned. So why did Jesus even bother mentioning these judgments and relating them to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Good questions!. Of course, the judgement of the tares takes in the whole world, since there are lawless people living in every country of the world. But it does not take in every human. Jesus said "all things that offend, and them which do iniquity," would be gathered. Does this judgement seem to be based on the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, and those that have put their trust in Him? It does not to me. No mention of being born again, or believing in the shed blood of Jesus. Here, one would NOT want to be the one taken.

Some people believe that the judgement of the nations means just that: nations as a whole. I don't think so. I think this is speaking of every last human alive on planet earth. I believe this is the final "test" for who will be allowed into the millennial kingdom. They are not judged here by whether or not they believed in the shed blood of Jesus. Jesus was quite explicit on what they will be judged on. It seems to be how they treated those trying to escape the leopard beast. Did they offer to help?

Coop

 

[turnorburn]

Oh Coop, don't do this to me, I just got off a thread where I commend you and come back here and find your still on this kick!

 

[lecoop]

Oh Coop, don't do this to me, I just got off a thread where I commend you and come back here and find your still on this kick!

He he! I am just answering questions! Maybe you did not like the answers.

Coop

 

[GraceBwithU]

coop,
OK. I do not want to get into the details of these verses. That is not the purpose of this thread and it is unnecessary to do so. In your question below, I’m assuming that you are speaking of what is mentioned in Matt 25:31-34. If not, please let me know. I am only trying to answer your questions.

Btw, would you please explain where you find the sheep for the judgement of the nations?

 

[GraceBwithU]

Coop,
First, the parable of the tares and wheat:

By "tares" is meant a degenerate kind of wheat, or the darnel-grass growing in Palestine. In its growth and form it has a strong resemblance to genuine wheat; but it either produces no grain, or that of a very inferior kind. The tares are the hypocrites and the false prophets. They resemble the real thing but are not. It also mentions burning the tares once separated from the wheat.

Second, the sheep and goats:

Here, the main point is the right and left separation, right for honor and reward, left for dishonor and condemnation.

Although these two parables are worded differently, they are still talking about the same event. Together they describe the event more clearly to us. Every time a parable is used is not a reason to create another event. And as said in Matt 25:31 says, “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his gloryâ€Â

.â€Â…throne of his glory…†This means his glorious or splendid throne. It is not to be taken literally, as if there would be a material throne. It expresses the idea that he will come "as a king and judge" to assemble his subjects before him, and to appoint them their rewards.

This happens on earth, after He comes, NOT in heaven. The tares and the goats will never see heaven.

Also, “Rev 19:7, Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come [is at hand], and his wife hath made herself ready[ready to be harvested].

The marriage is the union of the church to Christ. Therefore, it represents the true church as a pure bride and the Lamb's wife. The meaning is, that the church will be now in permanent union with her glorious groom and Lord.

Christ gathers His bride for the wedding, [union] at His second coming. The gathering is the wedding! The wedding is not a walk down the isle with the groom waiting at the alter thing. This is all symbolic of the groom and the bride joining together permanently.

:wink:

 

[GraceBwithU]

coop,
Furthermore; the sheep, (true wheat) reign over the goats, (tares) for the 1000 years, (some die of course and are resurrected at the great white throne). Later Satan is freed for a season. He gathers these goats and/or their descendants to do battle one more time. When Satan is freed, these are his most likely sources for an army to go against God, if not the goats and tares, then WHO?

Rev 20:7-9
9 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The saints with Christ, reign for 1000 years...over whom?

:wink:

 

[Vic C.]

coop,
Furthermore; the sheep, (true wheat) reign over the goats, (tares) for the 1000 years, (some die of course and are resurrected at the great white throne). Later Satan is freed for a season. He gathers these goats and/or their descendants to do battle one more time. When Satan is freed, these are his most likely sources for an army to go against God, if not the goats and tares, then WHO?

Rev 20:7-9
9 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The saints with Christ, reign for 1000 years...over whom?

:wink:

Bravo! :D There is still an aura of evil present during the 1,000 year reign and some will succumb to it's temptation, just like in the Garden. A full purging of all that's evil and full restoration of all things doesn't happen until after the 1,000 years.

1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1 Cor 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

There are some here who teach that only those with glorified bodies are present during the 1,000 years. Which begs the question you ask. "over whom?"

 

[lecoop]

coop,
Furthermore; the sheep, (true wheat) reign over the goats, (tares) for the 1000 years, (some die of course and are resurrected at the great white throne). Later Satan is freed for a season. He gathers these goats and/or their descendants to do battle one more time. When Satan is freed, these are his most likely sources for an army to go against God, if not the goats and tares, then WHO?

Rev 20:7-9
9 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The saints with Christ, reign for 1000 years...over whom?

:wink:

It is amazing to me, how two people can read the same thing, and come up with such different ideas.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Question: how can they be "departed" from Jesus, and be sent into the everlasting fire, and be a part of the millennial kingdom? The whole purpose of this judgement is to determine who will be allowed into the kingdom. Why would you even think that God would allow wicked people into the kingdom? I can promise you, He won't!

Both the sheep and goats are natural people, and have not been resurrected from the dead, They are people who have survived the day of the Lord, up to this point. The sheep are allowed into the millennial kingdom, and they produce children. Billions of people were put to deatrh, during the 70th week of Daniel, and only a few million will survive. The world will be repopulated during the 1000 years. Of course, all of these people, those born during this 1000 years, will have never been tempted to turn from God, so God will allow Satan to tempt them, to see if they choose God or Satan. Amazingly, many will choose SAtan, and will be destroyed.

In the parable of the tares, take a look:

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

If they are cast into the fire, sorry, they will NOT be around for the 1000 year reign. Buzzards will eat their bodies. (see Luk 17:37) They are the ones "taken."

When is this done? There is strong evidence it is done at the moment that Jesus descends. What does Jesus say happens when He appears as lightning that flashes from the East to the West?

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

This is the parable of the tares, being carried out. It is the "one taken," and one left. What happens after Jesus gets here? Of course, the battle of Armageddon. I guess you want to fit the judgement of the nations into this tiny timeframe, of between Jesus descent and the battle of Armageddon? No, it must be after the battle, else who would be fighting on the beast's side?

So we see that the tares are gathered the moment of his coming, and the sheep and goat judgement later, after the battle and probably after He has set up His throne. Plain and simple.

Coop

 

[golfjack]

Coop, At the judgment of the nations, will they be judged by how they treated the Jews? How are you doing my friend?



Peace, Golfjack

 

[GraceBwithU]

coop,
Furthermore; the sheep, (true wheat) reign over the goats, (tares) for the 1000 years, (some die of course and are resurrected at the great white throne). Later Satan is freed for a season. He gathers these goats and/or their descendants to do battle one more time. When Satan is freed, these are his most likely sources for an army to go against God, if not the goats and tares, then WHO?

Rev 20:7-9
9 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The saints with Christ, reign for 1000 years...over whom?

:wink:

It is amazing to me, how two people can read the same thing, and come up with such different ideas.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Question: how can they be "departed" from Jesus, and be sent into the everlasting fire, and be a part of the millennial kingdom? The whole purpose of this judgement is to determine who will be allowed into the kingdom. Why would you even think that God would allow wicked people into the kingdom? I can promise you, He won't!

Both the sheep and goats are natural people, and have not been resurrected from the dead, They are people who have survived the day of the Lord, up to this point. The sheep are allowed into the millennial kingdom, and they produce children. Billions of people were put to deatrh, during the 70th week of Daniel, and only a few million will survive. The world will be repopulated during the 1000 years. Of course, all of these people, those born during this 1000 years, will have never been tempted to turn from God, so God will allow Satan to tempt them, to see if they choose God or Satan. Amazingly, many will choose SAtan, and will be destroyed.

In the parable of the tares, take a look:

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

If they are cast into the fire, sorry, they will NOT be around for the 1000 year reign. Buzzards will eat their bodies. (see Luk 17:37) They are the ones "taken."

When is this done? There is strong evidence it is done at the moment that Jesus descends. What does Jesus say happens when He appears as lightning that flashes from the East to the West?

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

This is the parable of the tares, being carried out. It is the "one taken," and one left. What happens after Jesus gets here? Of course, the battle of Armageddon. I guess you want to fit the judgement of the nations into this tiny timeframe, of between Jesus descent and the battle of Armageddon? No, it must be after the battle, else who would be fighting on the beast's side?

So we see that the tares are gathered the moment of his coming, and the sheep and goat judgement later, after the battle and probably after He has set up His throne. Plain and simple.

Coop

You just don't get it...that is why you don't see...you see only what you want to see. You invent judgments. You invent resurrections. you invent comings of Christ...all to fit your preconceived Hollywood movie version of the Bible...you should spend less time with Tm Lahaye. Depart from me
:

 

[GraceBwithU]

Bravo! :D There is still an aura of evil present during the 1,000 year reign and some will succumb to it's temptation, just like in the Garden. A full purging of all that's evil and full restoration of all things doesn't happen until after the 1,000 years.

1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1 Cor 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

There are some here who teach that only those with glorified bodies are present during the 1,000 years. Which begs the question you ask. "over whom?"

God Bless you! I think this is something that most people don't realize. They stop short of even caring about it. They have got to be there...it ain't over! Of course this pitiful attempt of Satan only warrants a few verses. But it is still there.

I see this when I read revelations 19-20;
Christ coming to gather the union of the bride and groom...war and defeat of Satan's army. However; everyone does not fight in this battle even though they are not believers in Christ. Just like today and throughout history...every individual of a nation does not fight in their military, regardless of what their beliefs are. But after 1000 years of being reigned over by the other guys...they are mad and want revenge. Just a thought. :wink:

P.S.
I also think that the 1000 year reign is symbolic for a very long time...not actually 1000 years, just a long time. It's for us mortals. We live in a world that is bound by 4 dimensions including time. The spiritual world is not bound by any of these.

I'm not so sure that any of these references to time mean anything to God except to help us understand. Alpha and Omega ya know, why should he care about time, it is just for us.

For instance; the number seven.
Creation
Universe and man created in six days and celebrated completion on the seventh, and rested.

Seven seals
Lots of things going on in the first six seal being opened, the seventh seal however;
Rev 8:1-2
And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Seven trumpets:
Lots of stuff going on for the first six. Then the seventh:
Rev 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Seven vials:
Again a lot of things going on during the first six vials, then the seventh;
.Rev 16:17
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Seven ages, the seventh being the kingdom age.
Seven is the completion of His work and rest. A turning point.

Seven years of tribulation:
Hum…the complete period.

3 and a half years….simply the mid point of the period

Oh yes these numbers mean something, but not in the way most humans think of them relating to time.

Sorry got carried away…just some thoughts.
:wink:

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

...
P.S.
I also think that the 1000 year reign is symbolic for a very long time...not actually 1000 years, just a long time.

Looking up the term in the concordance, it seems clear that the term that has been translated to "one thousand years" is not certain.
I have posted my thought before, and I believe that it worth repeating with this opportunity.

i hold the belief that we are to be ruling and reigning with Christ here and now. He has given us power and authority. Not only are we not using it to take dominion, but the many who are not are ridiculing, mocking and degrading those who are trying to teach it, preach it, and walk the walk.

If the Lord gave us a glimpse at what coulda, shoulda, woulda been, and stacked it up against what is, what would we see?

 

[GraceBwithU]

...
P.S.
I also think that the 1000 year reign is symbolic for a very long time...not actually 1000 years, just a long time.

Looking up the term in the concordance, it seems clear that the term that has been translated to "one thousand years" is not certain.
I have posted my thought before, and I believe that it worth repeating with this opportunity.

i hold the belief that we are to be ruling and reigning with Christ here and now. He has given us power and authority. Not only are we not using it to take dominion, but the many who are not are ridiculing, mocking and degrading those who are trying to teach it, preach it, and walk the walk.

If the Lord gave us a glimpse at what coulda, shoulda, woulda been, and stacked it up against what is, what would we see?

Excellent points. I must add though that His and our "reign will not start until Satan is bound. Right now we live in the "church age", Satan is in as much of control over mankind as he can have and ever will have. Thank Jesus for the comforter that He left with us!
Thank you for your comments. Good stuff.

F.Y.I. I did edit the post that you commented on...read it one more time if you like.

 

[lecoop]

You just don't get it...that is why you don't see...you see only what you want to see. You invent judgments. You invent resurrections. you invent comings of Christ...all to fit your preconceived Hollywood movie version of the Bible...you should spend less time with Tm Lahaye. Depart from me
:

No, I just believe the bible the way it is written. It seems many don't. I've never read Lahaye. I do read the bible.

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

Vic
Equating Ecclesiastes 12:7 to 2 Corinthians 5:8 actually contradicts your interpretation. No problem in referencing both verses together if one understands the intent of Ecclesiastes 12:7. Once you understand that, then it becomes clear that Paul is not speaking about something that is to happen "instantly", but at some point in the future... like the resurrection/transformation of believers.

This is not some future time,let's look at these verses in Rev

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Their blood was shed on the earth, while at this time they are pleading at the altar of God in heaven. To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord [Ecclesiastes 12:7]. The time of revenge will come at God's appointed time. Before God, nobody gets away with anything.

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Again nobody is in the ground somewhere

 

[lecoop]

Vic
Equating Ecclesiastes 12:7 to 2 Corinthians 5:8 actually contradicts your interpretation. No problem in referencing both verses together if one understands the intent of Ecclesiastes 12:7. Once you understand that, then it becomes clear that Paul is not speaking about something that is to happen "instantly", but at some point in the future... like the resurrection/transformation of believers.

This is not some future time,let's look at these verses in Rev

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Their blood was shed on the earth, while at this time they are pleading at the altar of God in heaven. To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord [Ecclesiastes 12:7]. The time of revenge will come at God's appointed time. Before God, nobody gets away with anything.

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Again nobody is in the ground somewhere

Excellent post, onelove! Finally, something we can agree on! Good point; those under the alter! They are the martyrs of the church age, slain for their walk with Jesus. James and Stephen are in this group. Yes, indeed, the are in heaven. No "soul sleep here!"

Coop

 

[turnorburn]

If this doesn't say it well... :

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Maybe you need a page from Foxes Book Of Martyrs to show you how they were killed. They would cry foul, don't you think, Coop escapes persecution because he was better than these. Coop they took entire families men women and children, Satan loves it, he hates us and finally he's deceiving you so that when the time comes you'll be in shock, his trickery has duped you, and I thought you were smarter. But being smart has nothing to do with evil does it now?

In His Service,
turnorburn

 

[lecoop]

If this doesn't say it well... :

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Maybe you need a page from Foxes Book Of Martyrs to show you how they were killed. They would cry foul, don't you think, Coop escapes persecution because he was better than these. Coop they took entire families men women and children, Satan loves it, he hates us and finally he's deceiving you so that when the time comes you'll be in shock, his trickery has duped you, and I thought you were smarter. But being smart has nothing to do with evil does it now?

In His Service,
turnorburn

Heb. 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Coop escapes persecution? I spent 8 days in jail, in June 07, and spent about $5000 for a lawyer and for court fines, because I took a young lady to a church service, just because she asked me to. And the sad part, it was church people that did it.

Coop