Coop, read Revelation 14 carefully. The "they" in verse three refers to the harpers:
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American Standard Version
14:1 And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion...
Darby's English Translation
14:1 And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing upon mount Zion...
Weymouth New Testament
14:1 Then I looked, and I saw the Lamb standing upon Mount Zion...
NIV
1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion...
NASB
1Then I looked, and behold, (A)the Lamb was standing on (B)Mount Zion,
Amp
1THEN I looked, and behold, the Lamb stood on Mount Zion...
Esv
1Then I looked, and behold, on(A) Mount Zion...
NKJV
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion...
NCV
1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb standing on Mount Zion...
(Note: there are as many others that say Sion.)
Young's Literal Translation
Hebrews 12:22 But, ye came to Mount Zion, and to a city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of messengers,
Do you guys ever really study the Word to see what the intent of the author is, or just read over it, and see where on your doctrinal theory tree to hang it?
First off, where is John?
Rev 4:1 ....the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
John is in heaven. Where is the voice he is hearing?
14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Where are harpers? It is an axiom that heaven is full of harpers. We can be sure these harpers are in heaven, where John is. Further proof of where they are:
14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Now read carefully: where again are the harpers? They are "before the throne." Now, who is learning their song? It is the 144,000. Therefore, they must also be before the throne. Then what is meant by "redeemed from the earth?"
ASV
...even they that had been purchased out of the earth.
Darby
...who were bought from the earth.
Douay Rheims
...purchased from the earth.
Weymouth
...who had been redeemed out of the world.
Youngs
...who have been bought from the earth;
Redeemed mean to purchase or buy.
From: Thayers Greek "apo"
1) of separation
a) of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...
b) of separation of a part from the whole
1) where of a whole some part is taken
c) of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed
d) of a state of separation, that is of distance
1) physical, of distance of place
2) temporal, of distance of time
(Emphasis added)
From therefore means that the 144,000 were taken FROM the earth to heaven, plain and simple.
14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth....
Where is "the lamb" at this point in time? Again, the answer is very simple: John shows Jesus returning to earth, AFTER the 70th week. John sees the 144,000 in the middle of the week. Jesus is therefore in heaven. The 144,000 MUST then be in heaven to follow Him. From Jamieson, Faussett & Brown:
"follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth--in glory, being especially near His person; the fitting reward of their following Him so fully on earth." (Emphasis added)
14:4 ....These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
We have the same Greek word here for "from." It again means that the 144,000 were separated by distance from the rest of the men, meaning earth. Now, if you are up to it, let's use a little logic: When they were first seen being sealed, what was to be their final destination? Would it be heaven or hell? Of course, they are God's special people, so heaven is the correct answer. Therefore, when God uses the word, "firstfruits," what would that mean? Remember, Christ was called the "firstfruits of them that slept." This means He was the very first to resurrect and receive a resurrection body, one that will never die again. Where did Jesus go when He resurrected? There are many verses that tell us He went to be at the right hand of the Father. Therefore, by the very word, "firstfruits," we understand that others will follow; there will be "second" fruits, or the rest of the fruit to follow.
In this 4th verse, we have "from" and "unto" God and the Lamb: "from" the earth, and "unto" God in heaven, as the "first" of many to follow. The "rest of the fruit" meaning the remnant, once they also are redeemed. Therefore, even in one word, "firstfruits" we know that the 144,000 are in heaven.
(I'm sorry to go into so much detail, but it is necessary for slow students.)
14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Please, read that last phrase very carefully. Where are they? And who is the "they?"
From Barnes comentary:
And, lo, a Lamb. See Barnes "Revelation 5:6".
Stood on the mount Sion. That is, in heaven. See Barnes "Hebrews 12:22". Zion, literally the southern hill in the city of Jerusalem, was a name also given to the whole city; and, as that was the seat of the Divine worship on earth, it became an emblem of heaven--the dwelling-place of God. The scene of the vision here is laid in heaven, for it is a vision of the ultimate triumph of the redeemed, designed to sustain the church in view of the trials that had already come upon it, and of those which were yet to come.
And with him an hundred forty and four thousand. These are evidently the same persons that were seen in the vision recorded in Revelation 7:3-8, and the representation is made for the same purpose--to sustain the church in trial, with the certainty of its future glory. See Barnes "Revelation 7:4".
commentary (author unknown)
It also shows that the 144,000 from Rev 7:3 are preserved safe now in heaven...
http://www.apocalipsis.org/rev-14.htm
Commentary Guzik
. Some commentators see this Mount Zion as the heavenly Zion referred to in Galatians 4:26. In this thinking, the 144,000 are victims of this beast, and are now in heaven with Jesus. But that view doesn't seem to match with the context at all. It also makes us wonder what good God's seal on the 144,000 amounted to (Revelation 7:4).
This shows that commentators are people too. Why victims? Does he not believe in God's power to rapture, or catch away? Did he forget about Enoch, and Elijah? Jesus?
J, F & B
four beasts--rather, as Greek, "four living creatures." The harpers and singers evidently include the 144,000: so the parallel proves (Re 15:2, 3), where the same act is attributed to the general company of the saints, the harvest (Re 14:15) from all nations. Not as ALFORD, "the harpers and song are in heaven, but the 144,000 are on earth."
(Emphasis added) These commentators disagree with Alford, whom must have written that they are on the earth.
There are many more commentaries to look at, but you get the picture: even amoung those that aspire to write commentaries, there is disagreement - so why go on? I am convinced that the author is telling us these 144,000 are in heaven; and you are free to believe what you will.
Coop
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