Bible Study The Rapture

[ezra]

Those doctrines are, IMO, all modern inventions and not supported anywhere by any of the teachings of the church before the 19th century.
They are "winds of doctrine" which tickle ears and offer no substance by which the believer might "make his calling and election sure.
They are a distraction, IMO.

iakoc the fool

how is scripture modern inventions ? it plainly says dead in Christ first then those which are alive and remaining will be caught up together in the clouds unless you got a Bible that says different . i would like to see scripture

 

[Jim Parker]

Maybe they didn't understand some of the future prophesies due to the fact they were looking for the Lord's imminent return.

They were looking for His immanent return for 1800 years???
The notion that the early church did not understand what the apostles taught them while modern "scholars" do so much more skillfully is a wonderful example arrogance.

Many things of Paul's gospel were hidden from the early church including the other apostles.

Nonsense.
That's what the JWs and Mormons teach: "new light". "Ongoing revelation" of the meaning of scripture. Rubbish!
2Pe 3:15-16 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
Peter (and, therefore, scripture) said it is untaught and unstable people who have twisted the scriptures and come up with the many ear-tickling winds of doctrine.

Who are present with Jesus when He receives His throne beginning His thousand year reign?

His disciples were present.
Mat 28:16-18 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted. And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."
Having been given all authority in heaven and earth is to reign.
That is when Jesus' "1000 year" reign began.
Taking a literal meaning of "1000 years" is part of the necessary distortions of scripture which are employed to appear to support the "rapture" invention.

Did they arrive there prior to the tribulation

Tribulation has been the ongoing experience of mankind.
Making the "Great Tribulation" of the ecstatic visions of the Apocalypse into a special event is another prop of the "Rapture" invention.
The dead will arise ONE time.
Christ will come again ONE time.
Christ will judge the living and the dead ONE time.
I don't care how good John Hagee's charts look. It is IMO religious bunk preached to fill pews and pump up the collection but is, in fact, a distraction from the calling of every believer.

But, if you feel a need to get all enthralled about when and where and who and how then have at it. Enjoy the movie.

Just make sure that you be found doing the good works which God created you to walk in when Christ returns. (Eph 2:10; Mat 24:46)

iakov the fool

 

[ezra]

They were looking for His immanent return for 1800 years???
The notion that the early church did not understand what the apostles taught them while modern "scholars" do so much more skillfully is a wonderful example arrogance.

Nonsense.
That's what the JWs and Mormons teach: "new light". "Ongoing revelation" of the meaning of scripture. Rubbish!
2Pe 3:15-16 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
Peter (and, therefore, scripture) said it is untaught and unstable people who have twisted the scriptures and come up with the many ear-tickling winds of doctrine.

His disciples were present.
Mat 28:16-18 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted. And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."
Having been given all authority in heaven and earth is to reign.
That is when Jesus' "1000 year" reign began.
Taking a literal meaning of "1000 years" is part of the necessary distortions of scripture which are employed to appear to support the "rapture" invention.

Tribulation has been the ongoing experience of mankind.
Making the "Great Tribulation" of the ecstatic visions of the Apocalypse into a special event is another prop of the "Rapture" invention.
The dead will arise ONE time.
Christ will come again ONE time.
Christ will judge the living and the dead ONE time.
I don't care how good John Hagee's charts look. It is IMO religious bunk preached to fill pews and pump up the collection but is, in fact, a distraction from the calling of every believer.

But, if you feel a need to get all enthralled about when and where and who and how then have at it. Enjoy the movie.

Just make sure that you be found doing the good works which God created you to walk in when Christ returns. (Eph 2:10; Mat 24:46)

iakov the fool

so you dont believe in the rapture ?

 

[dirtfarmer]

They were looking for His immanent return for 1800 years???
The notion that the early church did not understand what the apostles taught them while modern "scholars" do so much more skillfully is a wonderful example arrogance.

Nonsense.
That's what the JWs and Mormons teach: "new light". "Ongoing revelation" of the meaning of scripture. Rubbish!
2Pe 3:15-16 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
Peter (and, therefore, scripture) said it is untaught and unstable people who have twisted the scriptures and come up with the many ear-tickling winds of doctrine.

His disciples were present.
Mat 28:16-18 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted. And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."
Having been given all authority in heaven and earth is to reign.
That is when Jesus' "1000 year" reign began.
Taking a literal meaning of "1000 years" is part of the necessary distortions of scripture which are employed to appear to support the "rapture" invention.

Tribulation has been the ongoing experience of mankind.
Making the "Great Tribulation" of the ecstatic visions of the Apocalypse into a special event is another prop of the "Rapture" invention.
The dead will arise ONE time.
Christ will come again ONE time.
Christ will judge the living and the dead ONE time.
I don't care how good John Hagee's charts look. It is IMO religious bunk preached to fill pews and pump up the collection but is, in fact, a distraction from the calling of every believer.

But, if you feel a need to get all enthralled about when and where and who and how then have at it. Enjoy the movie.

Just make sure that you be found doing the good works which God created you to walk in when Christ returns. (Eph 2:10; Mat 24:46)

iakov the fool

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

Where in Ephesians does it state that we are to do good works. It is stated that we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works. The last phrase of Ephesians 2:10 stated that we are ordained to walk in them, not do them.
Philippians 2:13, " For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

 

[Eugene]

So the Lord is coming again two times?

At least Two, and I believe three times concerning the Church alone! Everyone caught up into heaven follow the pattern of 1 Thes 4:16-17; the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.
Would anyone say there have been no saints gone before us, and that are present with the Lord at this time?
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
What will be resurrected of those in the grave? their bodies? Their spirit is already there.

Those doctrines are, IMO, all modern inventions and not supported anywhere by any of the teachings of the church before the 19th century.

Maybe they didn't understand some of the future prophesies due to the fact they were looking for the Lord's imminent return.

They were looking for His immanent return for 1800 years???
The notion that the early church did not understand what the apostles taught them while modern "scholars" do so much more skillfully is a wonderful example arrogance.

Evidently so. Even today with all the resources to study scripture we have, you don't seem to have understood it, or rightly divided it.

Many things of Paul's gospel were hidden from the early church including the other apostles.

Nonsense.
That's what the JWs and Mormons teach: "new light". "Ongoing revelation" of the meaning of scripture. Rubbish!
2Pe 3:15-16 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
Peter (and, therefore, scripture) said it is untaught and unstable people who have twisted the scriptures and come up with the many ear-tickling winds of doctrine.

Who are present with Jesus when He receives His throne beginning His thousand year reign?

His disciples were present.
Mat 28:16-18 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted. And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."
Having been given all authority in heaven and earth is to reign.
That is when Jesus' "1000 year" reign began.
Taking a literal meaning of "1000 years" is part of the necessary distortions of scripture which are employed to appear to support the "rapture" invention.

Did they arrive there prior to the tribulation, and not of the pattern of 1 Thes 4:16-17?

Tribulation has been the ongoing experience of mankind.
Making the "Great Tribulation" of the ecstatic visions of the Apocalypse into a special event is another prop of the "Rapture" invention.
The dead will arise ONE time.

Christ will judge the living and the dead ONE time.
I don't care how good John Hagee's charts look. It is IMO religious bunk preached to fill pews and pump up the collection but is, in fact, a distraction from the calling of every believer.

But, if you feel a need to get all enthralled about when and where and who and how then have at it. Enjoy the movie.

Just make sure that you be found doing the good works which God created you to walk in when Christ returns. (Eph 2:10; Mat 24:46)

iakov the fool

Jim, I consolidated the different posts we've written so as to keep track of what's being said. To me when the Day of the Lord begins there will end the usurpation of nations in a short time, Israel will be restored, and when the end comes for judgment of the unrighteous, we will already have been in heaven for a thousand years. Thanks for your comments.

 

[reba]

Do not go to argueing. Stating your beliefs is great... Giving your scriptural backup for your beliefs even better... then move on before the yes no yes no battle begins..
Do not reply to this post in this thread ... if you have a problem with this post please take it to TWITS

 

[for_his_glory]

serious i didnt think they had dial up any more you must live out in the middle of no where

I am out in the country and love it. I have Dish for the TV, but can't afford $100 a month for the internet nor would I pay that much if I could.

 

[for_his_glory]

O Glory Girl, I'm surprised that you haven't studied this through....2Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."....When the rapture occurs, the Holy Spirit goes up with the Elect to meet our Master in the clouds.

I mean no disrespect Glory Girl, you are advanced more than many others in the workings of Elohim.

There may be some confusion in my questions as I was not asking for myself, but inquiring of others why there would even need to be an end of days time of tribulation (Gods mighty wrath), mystery Babylon being revealed or the mark of the beast if the Church (Body of Christ) are no longer here. Why would God need the rest of what is written in Rev from Chapter 4-20. If we are no longer here as some teach the Church is no longer here after Rev Chapter 4 why would God not end everything right there with His judgement and then send down the New Jerusalem.

 

[dirtfarmer]

There may be some confusion in my questions as I was not asking for myself, but inquiring of others why there would even need to be an end of days time of tribulation (Gods mighty wrath), mystery Babylon being revealed or the mark of the beast if the Church (Body of Christ) are no longer here. Why would God need the rest of what is written in Rev from Chapter 4-20. If we are no longer here as some teach the Church is no longer here after Rev Chapter 4 why would God not end everything right there with His judgement and then send down the New Jerusalem.

hello for_his_glory, dirtfarmer here

The reason for the events after the Church (Body of Christ) is "caught up" is that when Adam sinned in the Garden of Eden the title deed to the earth, God's creation, was given over to Satan and he became the god of this world. His rulership has to be shown not to be legitimate, as he is not like God, as said in his heart in Isaiah 14. The earthly kingdom of Israel will be established and Christ with is bride will rule and Satan will be shown that is a created being and not like God in any way.

 

[for_his_glory]

At least Two, and I believe three times concerning the Church alone! Everyone caught up into heaven follow the pattern of 1 Thes 4:16-17; the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

Would anyone say there have been no saints gone before us, and that are present with the Lord at this time?
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
What will be resurrected of those in the grave? their bodies? Their spirit is already there.

As John is shown different ones in different proximities to the throne of God arriving in heaven at different times, so is the amount of times Jesus meets different portions of the Church in the air.

Jesus has never returned for anyone after His ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father being our mediator before God, as this would go against what Jesus said in John 3:13. The resurrection of the dead has not happened yet as it is only our breath/spirit/soul that returns back to God who gave it when this physical body returns to the dust of the ground from where it came from, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. No one is resurrected until the one and only return of Christ who calls His Bride (dead in the grave or alive at His coming) as they are then caught up to the clouds to meet Jesus in the air and then forever we will be with Him in all of Gods glory. 1 Corinthians 15:51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

When Paul was speaking about being absent from the body and to be present with the Lord, I believe he was speaking about being absent from the sinful flesh as when we walk in the Spirit we are in His presence while here on earth. The house Paul is speaking of in this chapter is the Spiritual tabernacle of God that dwells in us as we are clothed with Gods righteousness. For we walk by faith, not by sight. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present (Spirit of Christ) or absent (sinful flesh), we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad, 2 Corinthians 5:1-10.

 

[for_his_glory]

hello for_his_glory, dirtfarmer here

The reason for the events after the Church (Body of Christ) is "caught up" is that when Adam sinned in the Garden of Eden the title deed to the earth, God's creation, was given over to Satan and he became the god of this world. His rulership has to be shown not to be legitimate, as he is not like God, as said in his heart in Isaiah 14. The earthly kingdom of Israel will be established and Christ with is bride will rule and Satan will be shown that is a created being and not like God in any way.

What would all that matter any more if the Church is no longer here. At the moment Christ returns the door of Gods grace will then be closed forever as there are no second chances after the return of Christ.

 

[JohnDB]

These rapture theories seem to be really popular.
But they all hinge upon Dispensationalism...which doesn't seem right to me.
Now I tend towards inclusion theology where the New Covenant is included with Israel (Old Covenant) but to hold something special for the Jews of today especially since Jesus had nothing nice to say to the Jews of old and they still reject Jesus as their Messiah...it's just difficult to swallow.
There are different ways of interpretation of the scriptures shown here.

And this rapture wasn't thought to exist until John Darby came up with the idea.

So consider me confused. I guess that things will pan out one way or another.

But I like all the rapture movies. They are fun to watch.

 

[dirtfarmer]

What would all that matter any more if the Church is no longer here. At the moment Christ returns the door of Gods grace will then be closed forever as there are no second chances after the return of Christ.

hello for_his_glory, dirtfarmer here

Salvation has always been because of God's grace, but mercy has to be there also. Because we are born sinners, if God didn't show mercy, we would die at birth. Because of God's mercy his grace is extended to everyone. God is longsuffering not willing that any should perish.

Did God have to make "coasts of skin" to cover Adam and Eve? NO, but because of his mercy they were saved by his grace.
Mercy is God not giving us what we deserve.
Grace is God giving us what we don't deserve.

I will make this statement that disagrees with your statement: "There are no second chances". As long as a person is alive physically there is always hope. A person that is alive physically has yet to be consigned to the lake of fire. It is as death finds us so are we at the judgments. The believer is judged by works, not an entrance into heaven, but as to rewards. The (non-believer) unbeliever will also be judged, but it is the number of times that they have rejected the gospel of salvation that will determine the degree of punishment they will receive.

 

[dirtfarmer]

These rapture theories seem to be really popular.
But they all hinge upon Dispensationalism...which doesn't seem right to me.
Now I tend towards inclusion theology where the New Covenant is included with Israel (Old Covenant) but to hold something special for the Jews of today especially since Jesus had nothing nice to say to the Jews of old and they still reject Jesus as their Messiah...it's just difficult to swallow.
There are different ways of interpretation of the scriptures shown here.

And this rapture wasn't thought to exist until John Darby came up with the idea.

So consider me confused. I guess that things will pan out one way or another.

But I like all the rapture movies. They are fun to watch.

hello JohnDB, dirtfarmer here

Paul wrote about the rapture before John Darby ever existed.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 " Behold I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. In a moment , in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

When we couple this with 2 Thessalonians 2:7, " For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." What or who is the one the letteth( hinders-stops)? Is it not the Church by the power of the Holy Spirit that keeps the "that Wicked", "whose coming is after the working of Satan"(v-9) from being revealed?

 

[Douglas Summers]

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Hi Apousia, The one thing that most self willed teachers get wrong on this Scripture is that the dead will rise and go to be with the lord, then those that are alive will follow, but that is not what it is saying, it says, "caught up together with them", (it means, "simultaneously") in the original text, and it also means it here. In the two advents of Christ, He stands upon the earth, but in the rapture, we meet Him in the air and return with Him and descend with Him at His second coming, for He has not appointed us to wrath (1 Thes. 5:9) (Rev. 3:10).

 

[for_his_glory]

hello for_his_glory, dirtfarmer here

Salvation has always been because of God's grace, but mercy has to be there also. Because we are born sinners, if God didn't show mercy, we would die at birth. Because of God's mercy his grace is extended to everyone. God is longsuffering not willing that any should perish.

Did God have to make "coasts of skin" to cover Adam and Eve? NO, but because of his mercy they were saved by his grace.
Mercy is God not giving us what we deserve.
Grace is God giving us what we don't deserve.

I will make this statement that disagrees with your statement: "There are no second chances". As long as a person is alive physically there is always hope. A person that is alive physically has yet to be consigned to the lake of fire. It is as death finds us so are we at the judgments. The believer is judged by works, not an entrance into heaven, but as to rewards. The (non-believer) unbeliever will also be judged, but it is the number of times that they have rejected the gospel of salvation that will determine the degree of punishment they will receive.

What I meant by no second chances is once Christ returns is that He only returns one time and those who have made themselves ready for His return will at that time, alive and those who sleep in the grave whose breath has gone back to God, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7, whom God will bring with Him will be caught up together in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air and forever be with the Lord, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; Rev 19. This all occurs on that great and terrible day of the Lord (the last day) after the seventh trumpet is sounded an the seven vial judgements have made an end to all who had a chance to turn back to God during His great wrath (tribulation Matthew 24:21) as the gospel was preached to them. His patience and long suffering will have ended at that time, Joel 2:28-31; Matthew 24:29-31, as all had a chance to turn back to God, but rejected His calling them.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

[Hermit]

IMHO, the whole point about these verses is to always be prepared (soul) to go Home to the One that Loves you.

Getting caught up (in mind and effort) about whether there is a rapture, false rapture (mass alien abduction), or no rapture, is a waste of time for it has nothing to do with being prepared. If anything it seeds fear in the form of doubt about one's own salvation.

Not loving the Love that loves you is missing the point (the gateway and call of the Good Shepherd).
Remain content in all things. Be grateful throughout your day for being Loved.

(Added edit)
Fear holds us here (in the domain of the world) regardless of how subtle. Only total surrender (unconditional) lets us loose from the bondage of self (old nature).

 

[ezra]

I am out in the country and love it. I have Dish for the TV, but can't afford $100 a month for the internet nor would I pay that much if I could.

we live out in a rural area and had dial up for years.. i remember the days listening to the tone to see if it would connect or go over my hours . then i phone company put in dsl

 

[ezra]

IMHO, the whole point about these verses is to always be prepared (soul) to go Home to the One that Loves you.

it is about being prepared someday sooner or later it will happen

 

[for_his_glory]

If we are taken out of here before God's end of days mighty wrath (tribulation) that is all good and well, but what happens when we find we were deceived by all those pretrib teachings and find ourselves smack dab in all the tribulation that God will pour out into the world during the seven trumpet and seven vial judgements, which God will hope many will turn back to Him during this time. Are we going to fear and curse God thinking Him a liar or will we continue to praise His Holy name and continue taking the gospel out to those who might have ears to hear and come back to God during this time of the end.

BTW, we are not appointed to Gods wrath as to fall to temptation taking the mark of the beast, but that we not fear that which will fall around us or even those able to kill the body for our witness and testimony of Christ, but never the soul as we are to fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell, Matthew 10:28.