Bible Study the resurrection

[Nathan]

That is the Augustinian and Scholastic view that Satan is an agent of God and, therefore, God is the author of evil and God tempts man to do evil.

True. But you don't set those kind of choices before children as Adam and Eve were in their experience, for, up to the point of Satan's deception, they knew only God and weren't aware that evil even existed, let alone what it might be. (They didn't know they were naked until after they sinned.)

So do you let your 4 year old play in the street so you can show him compassion when he gets hit by a bus?
You comment makes God responsible for sin. (Augie and the gang again)
God gave man freedom so that, once he was ready, he could choose between good and evil.
Now, we have apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers who are supposed to train us up to the point of the maturity of the fullness of Christ so we can make the right choices. (Mostly, they just preach about tithing....)

The you agree that some folk are predestined to hell and others to eternal life because God allows it and designed it that way.
More Augie and the gang.

Sorry, my friend, but you are definitely "under the influence" of Augustine and the Scholastics.

A book: The Ancestral Sin, John S. Romanides, Zephyr Publishing. (You'll need a quiet place and plan to read it at least twice. 175 pages)

iakov the fool

No, I do not agree that some are predestined to hell or eternal life.

I'm not sure if you have ever read the book of Job? I would, personally, rather have my 4 year old play in the street - get hit by a bus - than to let satan wage a full on attack on his life. Yet God, brought up the fact that Job was righteous before satan - satan did not bring it up before God. God not only allowed His child to play in the street, God put His child in the street. God has this right. He can do what He wants with His creation.

You may believe that it makes God responsible for sin, but I do not. If God did not want there to be sin He could have made it so. Yet He chose to create satan(knowing what he would do), put him in the Garden(knowing what he would do), and allow mankind the ability to speak to him(knowing what he would do).

I do not think that satan is an agent of God. I believe God used him to accomplish His plan. Big difference. I do not think that every human is responsible for the guilt of Adam and Eve. It was through their disobedience that God was able to manifest love.

If you study the Bible, you will see that God manifests love in Christ death - and you do not see that His love was manifested in the resurrection. What you do see is the power of God manifested in the resurrection.

Romans 1:4
was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,

Philippians 3:10
that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death

On the flip side, we see the love of God shown in the death of Christ;

Romans 3:23-25
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Romans 5:7-8
For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Now, God's love is manifested in Christs death, but it would be in vain if Christ had not been raised from the dead - therefore securing eternal grace for all mankind. The resurrection was the final 'stamp' of approval from God -

Ephesians 2:4-7
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

The death and resurrection of Christ(birth and life reba ) are intrinsically linked, but each has its specific purpose - and its essential, to the faith, to understand each purpose.

What happens is we gloss over the death of Christ and go straight to the resurrection of Him. This is clearly seen, across the board, in all churches, by more emphasis put on the resurrection than His death. Its the same reason why the people of that day were looking for a Messiah the King, instead of Messiah the Servant.

When we are forced to hold the death of Christ in the same regard as His resurrection, we are forced to see just how much sin seperates us from God. It was the very act of His death, not His resurrection, that seperated Christ from God. This is tremendous to think about. The only perfect man, sinless in every way, seperated from God.

John spoke of this when he said, "behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world". John did not say, "behold the Lion of the tribe of Judah, who is raised to give eternal life". The Lamb of God had one purpose, to be killed, to be a sacrifice. He was raised from that death to show the eternal justification of God to man. It is so clear to see the distinction.

Romans 4:25
who was [delivered up for our trespasses] and [raised for our justification].

 

[ezra]

i have read about a lot of strange doctrine but this takes the cake . much of this takes away the atoning death of Christ . Christ died for our sins
Romans 5:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. all the sacrifices in the o.t was external they had to be repeated once a year .Christ sacrifice was and is eternal .never to be repeated again . when he said it is finished and gave up the Ghost the debt was paid in full . any thing outside that is to considered strange fire

 

[Jim Parker]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

No, I do not agree that some are predestined to hell or eternal life.

WHen you said, "Satan enticed man because God allowed it. There is no way to get around that point. God designed it that way."
you are saying that Satan is God's agent. That is 100% Augustinian/Scholastic teaching.
If God's allowing Satan to entice men is evidence of God's will (his design) then it follows that, because some men will be enticed "beyond the point of no return" and will end up in hell. If God's allowing is evidence of His design then it is His design (His will) that some people go to hell.

So, while you so not agree with double predestination (and I agree with you that it is an error.) your logic is faulty.

I'm not sure if you have ever read the book of Job? I would, personally, rather have my 4 year old play in the street - get hit by a bus - than to let satan wage a full on attack on his life.

I have read Job many times and you totally missed the point.

What happens is we gloss over the death of Christ and go straight to the resurrection of Him.

I don't know anyone who glosses over the crucifixion and death of Christ and goes straight to the resurrection.
Generally, Western Christianity emphasized the death as punishment for our crimes against God and gloss over the resurrection without which the death would have served no purpose.

The Lamb of God had one purpose, to be killed, to be a sacrifice. He was raised from that death to show the eternal justification of God to man. It is so clear to see the distinction.

That is incorrect.
He was raised to destroy the power of death (1Cor 15:52ff) because death is the enemy of God and man.
And I do not know what you mean by "eternal justification."
Please clarify.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[ezra]

Western Christianity emphasized the death as punishment for our crimes against God

what was the purpose of Christ death ?
1 Peter 1:18-20

Knowing that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, that you were redeemed from your vain manner of life handed down from your fathers, but with precious blood, as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot, the blood of Christ; who was foreknown before the foundation of the world but has been manifested in the last of times for your sake.

1 Peter 2
24 He Himself bore our sins
25 For you were like sheep going astray,
but you have now returned
to the Shepherd of your souls.

 

[Jim Parker]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

what was the purpose of Christ death ?
1 Peter 1:18-20
Knowing that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, that you were redeemed from your vain manner of life handed down from your fathers, but with precious blood, as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot, the blood of Christ; who was foreknown before the foundation of the world but has been manifested in the last of times for your sake.
1 Peter 2
24 He Himself bore our sins
25 For you were like sheep going astray,
but you have now returned
to the Shepherd of your souls.

ABSOLUTELY!
I think that my point has been lost in the conversation.
I'm not saying that Jesus' death was not 100% necessary for our salvation.
I'm saying that:
(1) Without His resurrection, His death would not have accomplished our salvation.

(2) His death was NOT the required punishment demanded by divine justice for crimes committed against the honor of God.

(3) By His death, Jesus bore the consequence of our sins even though He was sinless (1 Peter 2:24)

and

(4) by His resurrection, He defeated the power of death to hold mankind in the grave. (1Cor 15:52ff)

I have been trying to explain that the common judicial understanding of Jesus' death was not the teaching of the very early church but was introduced by Bishop Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD), expanded by the Roman Catholic Scholastics of the middle ages and succinctly put forth by RC Archbishop Anselm of Canterbury's tract "Cur Deus Homo"*** in the 11th century. The teaching is based on a Platonic (pagan Greek philosopher) view of God and the cosmos and demonstrated by the method of reasoning established by Aristotle. (pagan Greek philosopher)

I apologize for the deficiency of my presentation.

*** You can find Cur Deus Homo here: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Cur_Deus_Homo

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)



DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[ezra]

common judicial understanding of Jesus' death was not the teaching of the very early church but was introduced by Bishop Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD), expanded by the Roman Catholic Scholastics of the middle ages and succinctly put forth by RC Archbishop Anselm of Canterbury's tract "Cur Deus Homo"*** in the 11th century. The teaching is based on a Platonic (pagan Greek philosopher) view of God and the cosmos and demonstrated by the method of reasoning established by Aristotle. (pagan Greek philosopher)

drop this part and you will find we all agree . from my perspective / observation .. it sounded as if you was saying over and over. that Christ death was not payment for our sins.. which helped pave the road to forgiveness and his Resurrection eternal life . a suggestion that i think would draw interest . would be do a post on what these people actually believed. evidently you have read up on this. why not break down. glad you clarified this. i was beginning think you was so far out in left field you could never find home page 2

 

[ezra]

I apologize for the deficiency of my presentation.

no need some of mine look way out there a writer i am not

 

[Nathan]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

WHen you said, "Satan enticed man because God allowed it. There is no way to get around that point. God designed it that way."
you are saying that Satan is God's agent. That is 100% Augustinian/Scholastic teaching.
If God's allowing Satan to entice men is evidence of God's will (his design) then it follows that, because some men will be enticed "beyond the point of no return" and will end up in hell. If God's allowing is evidence of His design then it is His design (His will) that some people go to hell.

So, while you so not agree with double predestination (and I agree with you that it is an error.) your logic is faulty.

I have read Job many times and you totally missed the point.

I don't know anyone who glosses over the crucifixion and death of Christ and goes straight to the resurrection.
Generally, Western Christianity emphasized the death as punishment for our crimes against God and gloss over the resurrection without which the death would have served no purpose.

That is incorrect.
He was raised to destroy the power of death (1Cor 15:52ff) because death is the enemy of God and man.
And I do not know what you mean by "eternal justification."
Please clarify.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

Ah, I see what your saying. So was satan not part of God's design? Did someone else make him?

I did do some light reading and it seems Orthodox beliefs don't gloss over the death as much as it seems. But it was interesting to see that they even see how others think that about them. Which does say something about the Orthodox faith (along with the over judgmental attitude of others )

1 Corinthians 15 does not state that He was raised to destroy the power of death. It does state that when this mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass that which is written "Death is swallowed up in victory".

However, Romans 4:25 specifically states He was raised for our justification. Black and white letters - word for word. Unmistakable.

Now, as far as "eternal justification", we know that Christ is eternal. We know that He was raised for our Justification. In Romans 5, we see Paul expounding more on what this justification is, and in verse 10 he says this;

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Reconciled by the death, saved by His life. His 'eternal' life is an ongoing propitiation for our sins. You know, as well as I do, that as long as we are still on this earth, we still sin. His life, is now our 'eternal' justification before God. Not temporal, like it was in the OT, but eternal.

Hebrews puts it this way;

Heb 2:17-18
Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Heb 7:22-28
This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.

The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.

There in is your exposition on what I mean by "eternal justification". His resurrection is what secures this eternal justification, made possible by His death.

 

[ezra]

"eternal justification", we know that Christ is eternal. We know that He was raised for our Justification. In Romans 5, we see Paul expounding more on what this justification is,

justification is cool i heard it said like this just as if we had never sinned

 

[Nathan]

justification is cool i heard it said like this just as if we had never sinned

I've heard that also. It is a somewhat true statement, but should not be looked at in the aspect that we actually have not sinned. Its a judicial term to 'acquit' someone. In other words, to throw out the case against us because it has become null and void. This will not be fully realized until we are in eternity with Him and He no longer makes intersession for us.

But the very fact that He is making intersession for us, right now, should make us aware that each and every sin committed is being dealt with in this regard. It should motivate us to abstain from sin, knowing that He loved us so much, and continues to love us.

All to often people view justification, in the aspect of 'never have sinned', and think that sin does not matter anymore. It does, and His very resurrection secured this eternal justification, but it came at a great price.

 

[Jim Parker]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

drop this part and you will find we all agree . from my perspective / observation .. it sounded as if you was saying over and over. that Christ death was not payment for our sins.. which helped pave the road to forgiveness and his Resurrection eternal life . a suggestion that i think would draw interest . would be do a post on what these people actually believed. evidently you have read up on this. why not break down. glad you clarified this. i was beginning think you was so far out in left field you could never find home page 2

it sounded as if you was saying over and over. that Christ death was not payment for our sins.

That is exactly what I was saying.
And I was focusing on the word "payment." The early church did not teach that God required a payment to save us.
The idea that God needs to receive a payment in order to restore us to good relations with Him is an entirely pagan idea.

Jesus' death was necessary to save man from the "wages of sin," but not from the "punishment for" sin as Augustine et. al. taught.

Jesus death was not required to "satisfy, cold hard, divine justice" .
God acted in very personal love for mankind in Jesus' self-sacrifice to death and in His resurrection in order to destroy Satan's power which he held over man through sin and death.

Even one sin brought death and the destruction of the body (corruption) in the grave. A righteous person, if he sinned even once, would suffer the same fate as a drunken, murdering, rapist: death and the corruption of the body. But God's original plan for mankind was that man would become immortal. (As indicated by his access to the tree of life in paradise before the fall.)

Because of Jesus' death and resurrection, which destroyed the devil's rule over death and Hades, all of mankind will be raised from the dead immortal and incorruptible. (1Cor 15:52ff) Because of Jesus' death and resurrection, there WILL BE a resurrection of all mankind and, as Jesus said, (John 5:28-29 NKJV) … the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Jesus death and resurrection insured that God's original plan for man would be fulfilled; man would be intimately united to God in Christ, body and soul, in eternal life in the Holy Spirit.

He died as a sinless man who had not earned death by His sin.(2Co 5:21)
He died as God the word united to mankind by His human flesh and Who could not be held captive to the grave. (John 1:14)
By His resurrection, Christ guaranteed the resurrection of all of mankind (1Cor 15:52ff) because He gained the victory over Satan by taking away his rule of death and the grave. (Rev 1:18)

If Jesus had not been born of the Virgin, died on the cross, raised on the third day, and ascended to the throne of the Father, we would all be without hope and dead in our sins.

I'm saying Jesus death and resurrection was not done because out of the necessity of divine justice that God acted to punish the sin/crimes of mankind committed against Him (as Augustine and the RC teaches) but because God so loved the world that He chose to destroy Satan's ability to use the power of sin and death against mankind.

I hope that helps.
It's a lot to take in since the entire western Church, beginning with Rome, has accepted the Augustine, Scholastic (Thomas Aquinas), Anselm teaching that God needed to be satisfied and His anger quenched by the sacrifice of a perfect human being before He would forgive man and not kill him.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Jim Parker]

Ah, I see what your saying. So was satan not part of God's design? Did someone else make him?

No Satan was not in accord with God's "design."
Everything that God created (including the angels) was good. (Genesis 1)
The fallen angel we call "Satan" exercised his free will to rebel against God and was cast out of God's presence.
In effect, Satan created himself by choosing evil over good. He was created good ( as were all creatures) but chose to do evil.

Man was also created good and God created him to attain immortality in body and soul. Thus man had free access to the tree of life.
Man also had free will, because, without free will, he could not attain the moral perfection of God. (Part of being in His image and likeness) Morality has no meaning unless the moral agent has the ability to choose to act morally or to act immorally.
Satan's deceit of man was not God's design. It was an act intended to prevent God's design for man to come to fruition.

Which does say something about the Orthodox faith (along with the over judgmental attitude of others )

???? I have no idea what you mean.

1 Corinthians 15 does not state that He was raised to destroy the power of death. It does state that when this mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass that which is written "Death is swallowed up in victory".

1Co 15:54-57 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Victory through our Lord Jesus Christ over what or over whom?
Over the devil, death and Hades.
Their power is destroyed by Jesus victory over them.
That is exactly what it says.

There in is your exposition on what I mean by "eternal justification". His resurrection is what secures this eternal justification, made possible by His death.

Really??

Romans 5

, we see Paul expounding more on what this justification is, and in verse 10 he says this;
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Saved from what?
Saved from death and Hades (1 cor 15:54ff) not saved from God who want's to kill everyone because He's angry at everyone sinned against Him. (Auggie and the Scholastics)

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

justification is cool i heard it said like this just as if we had never sinned

Yeah.
I've heard that too.
And it does have a germ of truth in it.
When God justifies sinful man, He graciously applies the uncreated energy by which man is saved from death and Hades, raised again immortal and incorruptible (as was God's original intent for man) so that those who to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality He will give eternal life. (Ro 2:7)
It does have the same result that someone who never sinned would experience. (If such a person were possible aside from Christ.)

iakov the fool

 

[Nathan]

No Satan was not in accord with God's "design."
Everything that God created (including the angels) was good. (Genesis 1)
The fallen angel we call "Satan" exercised his free will to rebel against God and was cast out of God's presence.
In effect, Satan created himself by choosing evil over good. He was created good ( as were all creatures) but chose to do evil.

Man was also created good and God created him to attain immortality in body and soul. Thus man had free access to the tree of life.
Man also had free will, because, without free will, he could not attain the moral perfection of God. (Part of being in His image and likeness) Morality has no meaning unless the moral agent has the ability to choose to act morally or to act immorally.
Satan's deceit of man was not God's design. It was an act intended to prevent God's design for man to come to fruition.

???? I have no idea what you mean.

1Co 15:54-57 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Victory through our Lord Jesus Christ over what or over whom?
Over the devil, death and Hades.
Their power is destroyed by Jesus victory over them.
That is exactly what it says.

Really??
Saved from what?
Saved from death and Hades (1 cor 15:54ff) not saved from God who want's to kill everyone because He's angry at everyone sinned against Him. (Auggie and the Scholastics)

iakov the fool

Did God know satan would rebel? Did God create him knowing he would rebel?

It seems to me that your logic puts more power into the hands of satan than God allows. Do you feel satan is outside of Gods knowledge and power, as in, he can do some things without God knowing it or being able to overpower it?

 

[Jim Parker]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Did God know satan would rebel?

If we believe that God is omniscient, we must answer, "yes."

Did God create him knowing he would rebel?

Again, yes.
God created angels and men with free will.
God is love. Love does not force one to act against his will.
Satan made a free will choice to rebel.

It seems to me that your logic puts more power into the hands of satan than God allows.

Are you saying that it was God's will that Satan would cause eternal death for man by enticing man to sin?
If so, then it must be that it is God's will that man should sin.
If it is God's will that man should sin then God is the author of evil and is responsible for every despicable act of man against his fellow man.
If everything that happens happens because it is exactly what God wants to happen then Calvin was right; God chose some to be saved and some to be sent to hell and there is nothing anyone can do about either outcome.
Also, if everything that happens is what God wanted to happen then all the sin, death, suffering, and misery of mankind is God's doing. He is responsible for it all.

If, on the other hand, it is by God's love for his creation that He allows His creatures to choose to love Him and obey Him or hate Him and disobey Him, then the responsibility for evil lies with Satan, who chose to be God's enemy, and man, who chooses to sin.

Do you feel satan is outside of Gods knowledge and power, as in, he can do some things without God knowing it or being able to overpower it?

Not at all.
God's knows exactly what Satan is doing and allows him to exercise his free will.
God has already overpowered Satan by Jesus' death and resurrection.
At the judgment, Satan will be judged and punished for his rebellion.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)

DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Nathan]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

If we believe that God is omniscient, we must answer, "yes."

Again, yes.
God created angels and men with free will.
God is love. Love does not force one to act against his will.
Satan made a free will choice to rebel.

Are you saying that it was God's will that Satan would cause eternal death for man by enticing man to sin?
If so, then it must be that it is God's will that man should sin.
If it is God's will that man should sin then God is the author of evil and is responsible for every despicable act of man against his fellow man.
If everything that happens happens because it is exactly what God wants to happen then Calvin was right; God chose some to be saved and some to be sent to hell and there is nothing anyone can do about either outcome.
Also, if everything that happens is what God wanted to happen then all the sin, death, suffering, and misery of mankind is God's doing. He is responsible for it all.

If, on the other hand, it is by God's love for his creation that He allows His creatures to choose to love Him and obey Him or hate Him and disobey Him, then the responsibility for evil lies with Satan, who chose to be God's enemy, and man, who chooses to sin.

Not at all.
God's knows exactly what Satan is doing and allows him to exercise his free will.
God has already overpowered Satan by Jesus' death and resurrection.
At the judgment, Satan will be judged and punished for his rebellion.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)

DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

I do not believe it was God's will that satan would rebel. But I do know that God knew it would happen before creating Lucifer. This is one of those mysteries of God. It is Paul's whole point when he asks who are we to question the potter and why he makes one vessel for one purpose and another vessel for another.

It really is simple. God giving man free will, even giving the angels free will, allowed them the choice. You cannot have true love without free will. But in order to have a choice, you have to have something to choose. If there was nothing to choose then how can there be a choice? God using satan's rebellion to show His love for mankind is not the same as God being responsible for sin. It does give mankind a distinct choice though.

I think this is precisely why sin originated with an angel and not with mankind. Angels cannot be 'saved'. God overpowered satan long before Jesus death and resurrection. In fact, overpower is not even a correct term because that would indicate satan was on the same level at some point - he never was.

 

[Jim Parker]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

If there was nothing to choose then how can there be a choice?

The choice was (and still is) to obey God or not.

God using satan's rebellion to show His love for mankind is not the same as God being responsible for sin.

I didn't say it was.
I said:
"Are you saying that it was God's will that Satan would cause eternal death for man by enticing man to sin?
If so, then it must be that it is God's will that man should sin.
If it is God's will that man should sin then God is the author of evil and is responsible for every despicable act of man against his fellow man.
If everything that happens happens because it is exactly what God wants to happen then Calvin was right; God chose some to be saved and some to be sent to hell and there is nothing anyone can do about either outcome.
Also, if everything that happens is what God wanted to happen then all the sin, death, suffering, and misery of mankind is God's doing. He is responsible for it all."

God does not use Satan's rebellion to show His love.
God doesn't need Satan to show His love.
God show's His love for mankind by defeating Satan's weapon against man which is death. Man could not defeat death so God sis it for us. That's not "using Satan"; it's preventing Satan from destroying the image of God by death.

I think this is precisely why sin originated with an angel and not with mankind. Angels cannot be 'saved'.

Sin may have originated with angels for no other reason than because angels were created before man.

God overpowered satan long before Jesus death and resurrection. In fact, overpower is not even a correct term because that would indicate satan was on the same level at some point - he never was.

God sent His angels to throw Satan out of heaven and an angel is used to bind Satan at Rev.20: 1-2.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Nathan]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The choice was (and still is) to obey God or not.

I didn't say it was.
I said:
"Are you saying that it was God's will that Satan would cause eternal death for man by enticing man to sin?
If so, then it must be that it is God's will that man should sin.
If it is God's will that man should sin then God is the author of evil and is responsible for every despicable act of man against his fellow man.
If everything that happens happens because it is exactly what God wants to happen then Calvin was right; God chose some to be saved and some to be sent to hell and there is nothing anyone can do about either outcome.
Also, if everything that happens is what God wanted to happen then all the sin, death, suffering, and misery of mankind is God's doing. He is responsible for it all."

God does not use Satan's rebellion to show His love.
God doesn't need Satan to show His love.
God show's His love for mankind by defeating Satan's weapon against man which is death. Man could not defeat death so God sis it for us. That's not "using Satan"; it's preventing Satan from destroying the image of God by death.

Sin may have originated with angels for no other reason than because angels were created before man.

God sent His angels to throw Satan out of heaven and an angel is used to bind Satan at Rev.20: 1-2.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

Your interesting. So is obeying God loving Him, and disobeying God not loving Him? Two choices right?

Take away one and can you choose?

So first you say God doesn't use satans rebellion to show His love, then you say He does show His love by overcoming what satans rebellion caused. Interesting.

Knowing what we do, if satan was out of the picture, would there be choice and would there be death?

 

[Jim Parker]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Your interesting. So is obeying God loving Him, and disobeying God not loving Him? Two choices right?

I'm interesting???
What did Jesus say?
Jhn 14:15"If you love me, you will keep my commandments."
Jhn 14:21a "He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; ..."
That should make Jesus interesting too! (Haha) :wink
And yes, the two choices are obey Him or don't obey Him. (Pick one.)

So first you say God doesn't use satans rebellion to show His love, then you say He does show His love by overcoming what satans rebellion caused. Interesting.

Do you not understand the difference between using Satan and defeating Satan???
God doesn't "show His love for mankind" by using Satan to incite us to sin so he can save us.
That would be like a fireman who's also an arsonist who sets buildings on fire so he can save people from the fire "in order to show his love" for the people he saves from the fire he set.
Satan rebelled against God and constantly tries to get man to rebel and sin since the result will be man's death and his "return to dust" (corruption) which is the destruction of God's image in man.
God show's his love by stripping Satan of the power of death.
All of mankind will be raised immortal and incorruptible. (1 Cor 15: 52-ff)

Knowing what we do, if satan was out of the picture, would there be choice and would there be death?

Of course there would be a choice.
That choice is to obey God or not to obey God. It's the same choice Satan had.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Nathan]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm interesting???
What did Jesus say?
Jhn 14:15"If you love me, you will keep my commandments."
Jhn 14:21a "He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; ..."
That should make Jesus interesting too! (Haha) :wink
And yes, the two choices are obey Him or don't obey Him. (Pick one.)

Do you not understand the difference between using Satan and defeating Satan???
God doesn't "show His love for mankind" by using Satan to incite us to sin so he can save us.
That would be like a fireman who's also an arsonist who sets buildings on fire so he can save people from the fire "in order to show his love" for the people he saves from the fire he set.
Satan rebelled against God and constantly tries to get man to rebel and sin since the result will be man's death and his "return to dust" (corruption) which is the destruction of God's image in man.
God show's his love by stripping Satan of the power of death.
All of mankind will be raised immortal and incorruptible. (1 Cor 15: 52-ff)

Of course there would be a choice.
That choice is to obey God or not to obey God. It's the same choice Satan had.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

Yes, Jesus is very interesting - but in a different way than you are to me.

So you don't believe God gave satan the same power that He strips from him?

If not, where does satan get such power? It seems to me if everything comes from God, then satan would have got this power from God.

I know the difference between using and defeating. And I don't think God shows His love by using satan to intice us. I do believe He allowed it, and did so, knowing satan would, in order to show His love.

Do you know the difference between allowing and using? Do you think that allowing something doesn't require a choice? Eventually God will make the choice to stop him, why not back in the Garden?