Bible Study the resurrection

[Jim Parker]

So you don't believe God gave satan the same power that He strips from him?

OK, I probable didn't make that clear.
Satan, in reality, has no power.
Satan does not force anyone to do anything. He doesn't MAKE anyone sin.
Satan tempts, knowing our weakness, but WE chose to sin. It is OUR free will choice and OUR responsibility.
SIN separates us from God who is life and which separation leads our death.
Since all of mankind has a weakness to sin, it is an easy thing for Satan to trick us into sinning.
By destroying the power of death to hold mankind, God rendered Satan's work ineffective. Death no longer accomplishes Satan's objective of destroying the image of God in man. Satan, by deception, cannot cause man to loose immortality.

I know the difference between using and defeating. And I don't think God shows His love by using satan to intice us. I do believe He allowed it, and did so, knowing satan would, in order to show His love.

OOOOOOps!

I have to run an errand really quickly.

I'll be back

 

[Jim Parker]

I know the difference between using and defeating. And I don't think God shows His love by using satan to intice us. I do believe He allowed it, and did so, knowing satan would, in order to show His love.

If God allowed Satan to entice man to sin"in order to show HIs love" then God had a purpose in allowing Satan to entice man to sin.
If it was God's purpose then It was God's will.
But it was definitely not God's will that man would do evil.
That would make God the author fo evil.

However. If God allowed man to exercise his free will, even if man chose to do evil, but intended to provide a means of escape from the wages of sin, then God acted out of Love without being the author of evil.

Do you know the difference between allowing and using? Do you think that allowing something doesn't require a choice? Eventually God will make the choice to stop him, why not back in the Garden?

Allowing does not necessitate using. (Thus the phrase, "See how that works for you...")
God made a choice to allow man to exercise his free will. That's what Love does, it does not force anyone to act in a prescribed manner.
God does eventually stop Satan by casting him into the lake of fire.
To have stopped Satan from tempting Adam would have prevented Adam from exercising his free will.
That would be no different from forcing man to choose good. If there is no choice then neither is there free will.
Without free will, man cannot progress toward moral perfection to be in the likeness of God. WIthout the opportunity to choose the good and reject the evil, morality has no meaning.


iakov the fool

 

[Nathan]

If God allowed Satan to entice man to sin"in order to show HIs love" then God had a purpose in allowing Satan to entice man to sin.
If it was God's purpose then It was God's will.
But it was definitely not God's will that man would do evil.
That would make God the author fo evil.

However. If God allowed man to exercise his free will, even if man chose to do evil, but intended to provide a means of escape from the wages of sin, then God acted out of Love without being the author of evil.

Allowing does not necessitate using. (Thus the phrase, "See how that works for you...")
God made a choice to allow man to exercise his free will. That's what Love does, it does not force anyone to act in a prescribed manner.
God does eventually stop Satan by casting him into the lake of fire.
To have stopped Satan from tempting Adam would have prevented Adam from exercising his free will.
That would be no different from forcing man to choose good. If there is no choice then neither is there free will.
Without free will, man cannot progress toward moral perfection to be in the likeness of God. WIthout the opportunity to choose the good and reject the evil, morality has no meaning.


iakov the fool

I don't want to take your statements out of context, but you just spoke circles around yourself.

I said "God allowed", then you say that if God allowed satan "then God had a purpose.....then it was God's will", and then you said that "allowing does not necessitate using". Then you say that "without the opportunity to choose the good and reject the evil, morality has no meaning". Which would mean that God allows man to choose the good or reject evil correct? So then if He allows this, according to your first statement, that would mean He will's it.

That would mean, God will's that man choose between good and evil - right? How can man choose between something that does not exist? Does that mean God created evil? Of course not. That only leaves one other option.

God had to allow satan to be the avenue by which He allows man to choose between good and evil. Therefore, He shows His love through this, by showing mankind he is incapable of choosing good apart from Him. He does this by sending His Son to die for us, in which we who believe in Him, now can see the good 'fruit' of that faith.

 

[Jim Parker]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I don't want to take your statements out of context, but you just spoke circles around yourself.
I said "God allowed", then you say that if God allowed satan "then God had a purpose.....then it was God's will", and then you said that "allowing does not necessitate using". Then you say that "without the opportunity to choose the good and reject the evil, morality has no meaning". Which would mean that God allows man to choose the good or reject evil correct? So then if He allows this, according to your first statement, that would mean He will's it.

I don't want to take your statements out of context,..

Yet that is exactly what you did.
What I said was: "If God allowed Satan to entice man to sin"in order to show HIs love" then God had a purpose in allowing Satan to entice man to sin."
I didn't "talk in circles." You fabricated a circle and then inserted pieces of what I actually said into it.

When you take pieces of what I said and present them as the crux of what I said, you distort what I actually said.

Please don't expect me to respond to that reconstruction of my statement as I will not attempt to defend or endeavor to discuss anything that I didn't say or a piece of what I said which is employed in a manner which presents a totally different meaning from the one I had communicated..

That would mean, ....

What it might mean is irrelevant to this discussion since neither you nor I presented that argument.

Blesings!
iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)



DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Nathan]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

What I said was: "If God allowed Satan to entice man to sin"in order to show HIs love" then God had a purpose in allowing Satan to entice man to sin."
I didn't"talk in circles." You fabricated a circle and then inserted pieces of what I actually said into it.

When you take pieces of what I said and present them as the crux of what I said, you distort what I actually said.

Please don't expect me to respond to that reconstruction of my statement as I will not attempt to defend or endeavor to discuss anything that I didn't say or a piece of what I said which is employed in a manner which presents a totally different meaning from the one I had communicated..


What it might mean is irrelevant to this discussion since neither you nor I presented that argument.

Blesings!
iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)



DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

Ok, I will reconstruct the circle I see using the words you used.

If God allowed Satan to entice man to sin"in order to show HIs love" then God had a purpose in allowing Satan to entice man to sin.
If it was God's purpose then It was God's will.
But it was definitely not God's will that man would do evil.
That would make God the author fo evil.

However. If God allowed man to exercise his free will, even if man chose to do evil, but intended to provide a means of escape from the wages of sin, then God acted out of Love without being the author of evil.

To have stopped Satan from tempting Adam would have prevented Adam from exercising his free will.

You say if God allowed satan to entice then God had a purpose, and if it was God's purpose, then it was God's will.

Then you say if God allowed man to exercise his free will, then God acted out of Love without being the author of evil.

Then you say to have stopped satan from tempting Adam would have prevented Adam from exercising his free will.

So my point is, if God did not stop satan, then God allowed it. You say that means God purposed it if He allowed it. Yet you say He cannot purpose that man choose evil, but He could not have stopped satan because that would have prevented Adam from choosing.

The whole of the matter is, God knew satan would choose evil - yet He allowed it. And, just as you say, He allowed satan in the Garden to allow man to exercise his free will.

I do present the argument;

That would mean, God will is that man choose between good and evil - right? How can man choose between something that does not exist? Does that mean God created evil? Of course not. That only leaves one other option.

God had to allow satan to be the avenue by which He allows man to choose between good and evil. Therefore, He shows His love through this, by showing mankind he is incapable of choosing good apart from Him. He does this by sending His Son to die for us, in which we who believe in Him, now can see the good 'fruit' of that faith.

I had no intention to distort your post, just show that to me it was a circular logic.

 

[Jim Parker]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

You say if God allowed satan to entice then God had a purpose, and if it was God's purpose, then it was God's will.

Again, No, that is not what I said. You left out the central point.
I said: "If God allowed Satan to entice man to sin "in order to show His love" then God had a purpose in allowing Satan to entice man to sin."

God did not allow Satan to entice man to sin for the express purpose of demonstrating His (God's) love.

Since your response is based on a erroneous understanding of my comment, it will be not be relevant to what I said.

I had no intention to distort your post,

I'm sure that was not your intention.

just show that to me it was a circular logic.

It would be circular logic in the unintentionally edited form you presented but not as I originally wrote it.

Blessings!
iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[eddif]

what does the resurrection mean to you .
Romans 8
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you..

the pastor at the church we attend preached on knowing the truth this morning . one of the things that i am not crazy about is Easter egg hunts at Church . that is during the worship service maybe after Church or in our case we are having event for the kids this Saturday. strictly a day of fun for age groups up to 10. he did mention there was time Easter which is only used in acts and technically speaking was a pagan holiday.
i don't get all worked up over that.. back to what he mentioned there was a time it meant something to people special clothes . even those who normally do not attend church will come to services . lay aside the events connected . what is your thoughts .

the resurrection is complex .
Which resurrection ?
His
our from sin
or the one from the grave

II Timothy 2:18 KJV
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Any time you have the final corporate resurrection already taken place you have the overthrow of faith.

The prophetic assurance of the final resurrection is in place, it can be assured of happening. It is such a reality of happening we want to say so bad it is done already. All the facts about Jesus were prophesied and the assurance of completion was established, but at some point in time (not the slain from the foundation of the earth mind of God concept) he was born, lived, died, resurrected, preached to those in captivity, seen of witnesses, ascended to the right hand of the Father, sent the Holy Spirit, other things.

You asked - here it are:

Romans 8:11
My vile body will be changed at the last trump. I have promises that this will happen. My heart has promises desperate from my mind. My carnal mind has been changed to allow it to be filled with a lot of the discussion in this thread. Till that future event happens, there is a wretched man issue. The Spirit fights against the flesh and the flesh against the Spirit. I do not like it, but, The issue will be resolved.

eddif

 

[JLB]

However. If God allowed man to exercise his free will, even if man chose to do evil, but intended to provide a means of escape from the wages of sin, then God acted out of Love without being the author of evil.

Well said, Jim.

Much false doctrine arises from the idea that God "intended" for man to sin.




JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

Well said, Jim.

Much false doctrine arises from the idea that God "intended" for man to sin.




JLB

And I'll amen both of those statements.

 

[Nathan]

Well said, Jim.

Much false doctrine arises from the idea that God "intended" for man to sin.




JLB

There is a huge difference between intention and foreknowledge with a plan.

We do not have trouble understanding God confines us in sin, through His word, do we?

Gal 3:22
But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Here is the point. There are more false beliefs that rise when people believe that 'sin' was an accident - that somehow lucifer, or even mankind, averted God's sovereignty. False beliefs arise when people don't grasp the understanding that God knew about sin before it even existed on the earth. I cannot tell you how many times I hear sin, and Jesus death, being talked about as something that was a secondary plan.

We are in God's box - He is not in ours. God does not want us to sin, but He uses it to show His love - and His plan for mankind. The biggest, most absolute, danger in believing that God had no plan in regards to sin, is that tiny seed of pride - it gives a pinhole of doubt to God's absolute sovereignty. Reason being, if there is even a slight bit of chance that something happens outside of God's plan - then that means someone, or something other than God, can have some control. That's dangerous thinking right there.

Jesus death and resurrection was just as sure, and planed, as God's knowing that in Genesis 1 when He created the earth, He would destroy it some day.

 

[th1b.taylor]

There is a huge difference between intention and foreknowledge with a plan.

We do not have trouble understanding God confines us in sin, through His word, do we?

Gal 3:22
But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Here is the point. There are more false beliefs that rise when people believe that 'sin' was an accident - that somehow lucifer, or even mankind, averted God's sovereignty. False beliefs arise when people don't grasp the understanding that God knew about sin before it even existed on the earth. I cannot tell you how many times I hear sin, and Jesus death, being talked about as something that was a secondary plan.

We are in God's box - He is not in ours. God does not want us to sin, but He uses it to show His love - and His plan for mankind. The biggest, most absolute, danger in believing that God had no plan in regards to sin, is that tiny seed of pride - it gives a pinhole of doubt to God's absolute sovereignty. Reason being, if there is even a slight bit of chance that something happens outside of God's plan - then that means someone, or something other than God, can have some control. That's dangerous thinking right there.

Jesus death and resurrection was just as sure, and planed, as God's knowing that in Genesis 1 when He created the earth, He would destroy it some day.

God is Omnipotent. (Heb 1:3) God is also Omniscient. (Job 11 7:11) as our Omnipotent God, there is nothing He cannot do as our Omniscient, there is no place ae any time we can hide from Him, He is limitless.



Our Time/Space Continuum does not contain our God for He is the Creator of it also. (John 11-3) We must learn that we know nothing of our God except that, which He has revealed to us. God the Father and
God the Holy Spirit are just as Jesus once was, without physical body, they are spirits that can move through our realm and are not by what was created for us.



Now, I know this is hard to wrap the Head around but God, residing outside of our realm sees the Past, right now. is present in the Right Now, and the reason the Book of Life, the proof of Predetermination, is because He was watching the future before He created the first thing.



Wrap your head around this and our God becomes a loving, just God that has no fault.

 

[eddif]

John 1:12 KJV
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Matthew 6:10 KJV
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

I see no real reason to do any thing but mention our will has to be changed to God's will (in almost every case).

To protect our right to have a will seems to say the resurrection is already past.

Our will lies in the carnal / flesh area of our life. The mind of Christ contains the will of God (the new creation area that gives credit to God).

Then maybe this redneck can not read. LOL
eddif