The right way to suffer.

[reba]

Php 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?


Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Mar 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
Mar 10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Mar 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!


Mat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also

Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

I am a child of the King The King of all Glory. I do not doubt my place in the family of God. I hope and pray to grasp all of scripture not just the 'cool' parts.

In reading Scripture we see John was boiled in oil... Was that because of his lack of faith? Peter was crucified. John beheaded, What was Paul's thorn? examples over and over.... Yet we have the examples of Kings Solomon & David. There is a balance to Scripture a moderation.

In our world today i see Mother Tressa as a prime example of what ever you have done unto the least of these you have done unto me.... Do we all need to live as she did no. Do we all need to live like King Solomon no.


Your teaching places God in a box you like, one of prosperity and health,yet those are good things. What if God says sell all and give to the poor. It would not be a lack of faith for you to be poor no it would the opposite.
Yeah though i walk through the valley of the shadow of death.....Balance It is scriptural for the rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
Yes i am a joint heir of Christ how did He live while on earth.
He was not born in a home but a barn.... His earthly father worked and taught Him how to do manual labor. We have zero scriptures telling us He was silver spooned kid, His buddies were mostly fishermen guys who have great faith and zero faith..Every good 'thing' i have comes/came from the Father.....

Good thing .... salvation... faith...reasonable health..His love... family... comfortable home...plenty good truck... lessons learned through bad times..

I find the gospel of prosperity to be heretical. You dont, we do not have to agree.

Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.


Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

God does not say all good thing or all thing man thinks of as good things He just says all things

Which takes me back to the rain falling on the just and unjust.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We dont preach ourselves, we preach a message, and that message is the gospel.
Consider that unless you are preaching to your family, friends, or on the job where everyone sees you everyday, you are going to be sharing the message to someone who has no knowledge of your personal history, so your "walk of faith" has no influence on them,.... but the message that Christ died for their sins, will have an impact, as its the message, and not your lifestyle that bears fruit in the heart of a hearer.
Remember that "faith cometh by hearing" in an unbeliever.........ok?
It does not say that faith cometh by watching your behavior.

The words of the gospel can carry their own, that's for sure. But Jesus does tell us how our behaviour affects the gospel:

"...let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (Matthew 5:16 NIV1984)

You can't discount the witness and testimony of our deeds. It is very possible to make yourself and the gospel tasteless salt that men cast to the ground and tread on as worthless:

13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men." (Matthew 5:13 NIV1984)

 

[Kidron]

In reading Scripture we see John was boiled in oil... Was that because of his lack of faith? Peter was crucified. John beheaded, What was Paul's thorn? examples over and over....


Yes, John, Peter, Paul, and Jesus were persecuted for their PREACHING and TEACHING..
Absolutely.
This is the ""Right Way To Suffer" as a Christian, according to my Thread..
Read my Thread Reba....(for the first time)
It'll help you to agree with me even more then you are doing right now.



Your teaching places God in a box you like, one of prosperity and health,yet those are good things. What if God says sell all and give to the poor. It would not be a lack of faith for you to be poor no it would the opposite.

I would never put God in a box,... im diligently trying to take people who are in a theological box..... out of it.
Im showing them that as born again children of God, we have access to all that God has, all that God is, and all that God can do.
That our legal position, in the Kingdom of God, based on the blood covenant of his Son, which has reestablished us with this ACCESS because we are "heirs of God".
So, dont twist that and falsely identify me with your idea of "prosperity gospel".
For when you do this, you are not being honest.




Yes i am a joint heir of Christ how did He live while on earth.

Reba, u are not become a joint heir with Christ while he was on earth as a man.
You became the Heir of GOD after Jesus died and after he was reestablished BACK to his original position in heaven, = after you became born again..
He's NO LONGER the suffering messiah, the lamb.
He finished all that on the Cross.
Do you understand this?????????
JESUS is NOW the LION of Judah, and the KING of LIGHT and GLORY and HEAVEN and EARTH,..... that is his position NOW.
And that is NOW your "heir" position".
See it?
He is no longer the "lowly Jesus" who came to suffer and serve".
He is now the KING OF KINGS and The Lord Of Glory .
Did you ever notice this in your new Testament?
He didnt come out of that tomb the same way he went in it.
He rose as a KING and that is why Thomas said..."my Lord and my GOD" and Jesus didnt correct him.
For Jesus.....It was a positional change from the Cross to the Resurrection.
Understand?
Jesus NOW AGAIN is the one whom "every tongue will confess and before whom every KNEE WILL BOW".
So, do we bow before a lamb or a KING?
Do you understand this?
So THAT JESUS is your JESUS.
And THAT JESUS is a KING.......and you are an "heir" of a KING., not the "heir" of a suffering Messiah who has not gone to the cross yet.
Get the revelation.
Understand who you have now become joined to and who is living inside you RIGHT NOW.
Your "heir" position is with GOD and with Jesus AFTER the Cross.....and both of these are KINGS.
Get the revelation..


See, Jesus gave up his "riches" according to the New Testament, so that he could meet all the criteria the LAW required which when met, allowed his sacrifice on the Cross to be accepted on our behalf by his Father.
And it is Jesus himself who said he came to give you "abundant life, and that more abundantly".
So, get your dictionary and do a word search, and see if "abundant" means lack and sick and broke.
See, you have some type of mindset based on "word of faith" TV preachers who tell you to "send it in" for your miracle".
So, dont confuse what im sharing, with what you think they teach, Reba.


I find the gospel of prosperity to be heretical. You dont, we do not have to agree.


Reba,.
Ive never said a thing about any "gospel of prosperity", so you have no idea what you are talking about.
So, no need to put your words in my mouth, as they dont fit.
Now.,,If you want to continue to teach Christians that God's will for them is to be sick and broke, that is your business, so, dont make it mine.
You need to read what im writing, notice the context, and stop with your false accusations.
Nowhere in any thread ive ever posted here, have i ever said or implied that you are to be "rich".,,, or have i ever said you are to pursue "wealth", or that the "riches of glory" are provided you so that you can have cars and houses and 5 Flat Screen TVs.
That is your dishonesty trying to rewrite my context.
The fact is Reba, you have not read what ive written.
You and Mike, dont even use any quotes of mine when you come here and post your misguided opinions.

So, go and find a quote of mine where i say that God's riches in glory are available to us for any other reason then to meet our needs or to finance our ministry so that we can serve his divine will.
Good luck with that, Reba.
Take your time.
And thank you for the inspiration.
Its Christians like you, who inspire me for the sake of the others to offer them the opportunity to realize who they have become in Christ and how this position in the family of God is so elevated, so profound, and so rich in blessings and heavenly access.....and more.


K

.................

 

[God's_gift]

my say has nothing to do with the prosperity gospel that has been mentioned

at some point i agree with this..reminded me of the Song , God's not Dead ( Like a Lion) by Newsboys

You became the Heir of GOD after Jesus died and after he was reestablished BACK to his original position in heaven, and after you became born again..

He is NOW the LION of Judah, and the KING, and that is his position NOW.
And that is NOW your "heir" position".

He is no longer the "lowly Jesus" who came to suffer and serve".
He is now the KING OF KINGS.

that actually gives me hope and a reminder of my identity in Christ. And like you said with faith...

Faith is just like riches in Glory.
Its available, but we, not God, WE, have to develop it by USE of Faith.
Faith is a spiritual muscle and it grows when we exercise it and atrophies when we dont use it.
And the way you go to the faith gym to start, is you get the revelation of who you are in Christ so that you come to deeply lean on the fact and truth that you have access to all God has, all God is, and all he can Do.
Because, as Christ is God, and You are "in Christ", then you have access to the very power of the almighty on tap.
However, empowering it, is only achieved by REVELATION of who you are so that you can then behave accordingly and exercise it..

very empoweringI more realize now when Jesus said in Matthew 8:26 " He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm."


i could sum up my understanding on this in John 10:10 “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.”<O:p</O:p

 

[Mike]

And it is Jesus himself who said he came to give you "abundant life, and that more abundantly".
So, get your dictionary and do a word search, and see if "abundant" means lack and sick and broke.

There. I quoted you and this misunderstanding of what Jesus was saying. I am often on my phone, and copy/pasting is arduous, by the way. Your body of work has the constant prosperity gospel theme to it. Whether it's this false notion that God will heal anyone and everyone who has faith and asks for it, or that none of His faithful servants will go without if they believe and understand His Word. Often times, going to a secular dictionary will not necessarily provide for biblical meaning. You're correct that Jesus did say we would have abundant Life, but He was NOT talking about our finances or physical health. He WAS talking about His Peace that transcends all understanding; that we will live with joy in our hearts. Why? Because we would have no trouble? No. It's because He has overcome the world, and we will find rest in Him. You chastised me in response to my last post, but you never commented on its problem for your prosperity gospel. Kidron, Paul explained that he had times when he was without. Was his response to this valley to say that he prayed his faithful way out of it, knowing that God would honor his faith with a financial reward? No! He said he remained content through it. Seasons come and seasons go, but God is always with us. I believe it is highly presumptuous to conclude that those who aren't holding to your financial abundance do not have enough faith or misunderstand His Promise.

There inlies the rub on the property gospel. At a time when someone is experiencing Paul's "without", this doctrine could well leave them in despair, doubting their own salvation. They are being robbed of His Peace and abundance in Christ by hearing false teachers tell them it's their fault. For this reason, I believe this is among the worst of all lies that has infiltrated the Church. :gah

Paul had a thorn that was not removed. He was told His Grace was sufficient. IT IS!! Many believers have "thorns", and His Grace is always sufficient. There have been countless faithful believers who have been given platforms they wouldn't have had otherwise to share His Loving Message with a world that sorely needs it. Everything works for His Glory for those in Him, even when they are without or not in perfect health. I believe there's little more inspirational to the world than when they see peace in someone that they would expect not to have. Now, THAT'S seeing His Glory in everything. :yes

 

[Kidron]

Whether it's this false notion that God will heal anyone and everyone who has faith and asks for it, or that none of His faithful servants will go without if they believe and understand His Word.


Would you back this up with the New Testament?
Verse and context??
Its unfortunate that you as a mod have an extreme poverty gospel mentality, so, can you show me a New Testament scripture that says, as you say, that God may not answer the prayer of the sick, or that his faithful are supposed to go without?
Find me some scriptures, as your opinion is wearing thin, Mike.
And the quote of mine you used...???
The best you can do is deny that abundant life cant possibly mean help with finances and can only mean spiritual abundance?
Can you find me a verse that supports your opinion?
I can show you 10 that speak of material prosperity, and i can show you some where it even says that "its the LORD who gives you POWER to get WEALTH".
I can even show you one where it says that "God delights in the PROSPERITY of his saints".
Do you need a dictionary, or will you again try to spiritualize every single word in the New Testament so that it lines up with your poverty gospel theology?
You should take a hint from Gods_gift and try to realize , try, that money is a part of our NEED ....and God's riches in glory are designed to meet this personal need as well as the spiritual need part.


Often times, going to a secular dictionary will not necessarily provide for biblical meaning. You're correct that Jesus did say we would have abundant Life, but He was NOT talking about our finances or physical health. He WAS talking about His Peace that transcends all understanding;


Well he was indeed talking about Peace that passes all understanding, and he was talking about eternal life, but he is also talking about our day to day material needs.
This cant be ignored simple because you cant stand the idea of God and money and prosperity in the same sentence, Mike.



You chastised me in response to my last post, but you never commented on its problem for your prosperity gospel.


I chastised you honestly for not reading my Threads which has caused you to mislabel me many times since i came here, both in pm's and on the forum.
Mike...if you read even one thread i wrote, even the one i wrote today, you will discover to your surprise that i dont ever speak about any prosperity gospel..
But for some reason, if you read, "prosperity" in a Thread, you jump to a "prosperity gospel" conclusion, and you should not do that.
You should respond to my Threads based on your reading them.
But instead you are just proclaiming a false understanding for all to hear, and that is just not right.
If you were not a mod, i would not care, but because these readers might assume your position here indicates you might know a little about the bible.....well, i cant let you try to ram your wrong opinion down my threads throat, especially when you are simply wrong, and whats worse, is that had you really paid attention to my Thread's context, you would realize that im not sharing any type of prosperity gospel.
If you read my Threads, i always always always state that we have access to all God has, because of our position of born again birthright.
This blood covenant birthright, gives us access to God's abundance because it gives us a position of authority, legally, to have what God owns, and this is because we are his "In Christ" "HEIR".
Galatians 4:7.
So, because we are God's heir and are "in Christ", this gives us legal covenant rights to possess all he possess....and based on THAT TRUTH we are able to access by Faith all we need for our personal life and for our ministry.
Its our right to have it,....based on our position as a Son of God.
And where you and Reba fumbled the ball is by not realizing that this is not the same type stuff u hear from those TV teachers you despise..
See, I never ever say that we are to be extremely wealthy,, or to engage in some type of treasure hunt using our Faith.
I think you missed this, because you assumed that because i spoke of prosperity, then i must be exactly like those TV teacher you cant stand.
But, if you read me....you will soon discover what tessiewebb and Gods_gift and many others have discovered.
Which is....my entire point of view is to expose you to the fact of who you are in God, in Christ, so that your faith can be built upon the solid foundation of your heavenly status, so that your faith can actually work for you....and by that i mean to get your supply for your personal needs and for your ministry met.
I never imply that the access you have to God's riches in Glory, based on your position in the family, are to be thought of as a personal wealth or treasure hunt.
Never.
Never, Never, Never.
I will not try to convince you that the wealth that God can bring to any Christian is for the purpose of making them stupidly rich.

God's material gain...is given to meet NEEDS and its given to finance and run the ministry.
Does this mean that God does not want you and your family to have a nice home, car, and some toys?
God is fine with you having stuff as long as you can handle the stuff and it not become an idol or a time suck.
He has no issue with you having money,..but he does have an issue with you chasing it for the sake of itself.
As long as you understand that money is a tool and not a God, then things are fine.
The purpose of money is to be a help, and as long as its a help and not a treasure, you can expect God to bless you with money, as its your right to expect this from your Father..
After all, you need it, and if you are in the ministry you will need as much as necessary to fund the ministry or to fund the building he asks you to build.
Say God tells you to provide the people of Uganda with 1000 water wells.
You dont have that money, and yet God said to dig 1000 wells.
So HE has to provide the finances, and that is his job, and its our job to believe him to do it and supply it from his "riches in Glory"..
So, money is a good thing, but the love of it, is the problem.
I dont teach the love of money, I teach the proper use of it and why God wants you to have what you need to do his will as well as to have what you need in your personal life.
We need money..........God knows this......and he provides.
I teach that God has it available to provide, and we have him, and we have a right to access his riches in Glory because God himself because gave us that right when he birthed us in to the position of a Son and an Heir.
Are you familiar with the verse that says........"Though the Lord Jesus Christ was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich" (2 Cor.8:9).
Well, he isnt poor anymore.
He has returned to the first position, which is "rich".
And this position is the position of a KING.
And isnt Jesus a KING?
He's King of Kings and Lord of Lords now again according to the New Testament.
Do you know of any poor KINGS?
He isnt.
So,, we are "as he is in the world"....and we are "joint heirs".
So, if he is not poor, and he isn't, then we are the same, right now, as we are "seated in heavenly places "in Christ"., ,and ""Christ in you...(the King of Kings), the hope of glory".
There is no poverty to be associated with Christ the King, except with very very bad theology that has infected a lot of believers.
And to access this supply, Christ's supply,...God's supply, is our right, and to understand that the supply is not to be viewed as "treasure" is made clear by Paul.





Kidron, Paul explained that he had times when he was without. Was his response to this valley to say that he prayed his faithful way out of it, knowing that God would honor his faith with a financial reward? No! He said he remained content through it. Seasons come and seasons go, but God is always with us. I believe it is highly presumptuous to conclude that those who aren't holding to your financial abundance do not have enough faith or misunderstand His Promise.


Well , if you read the 1st paragraph of this Thread you will notice i said that a Christian's life will have seasons............
So, Paul and i have the same theology.
Where you and Reba take a left turn is when you consistently try to create a theology on this forum that ONLY ALLOWS for poverty and suffering as the proof of spirituality.
And brother/sister that is misguided and extremely wrong.
Poverty is not spirituality, and Paul never said that God created the difficult times of lack in his life.
Zero scriptures say that "God made Paul poor or sick.
Zero.
0
What he did say is that we have an enemy and this enemy will steal your money if possible and he will make you sick if you dont understand he can and continue to believe that God brings it all, and the devil just watches.
Also, and as i said....Paul's money difficulties were all tied up in trying to get believers to give, so, when they did, he had a lot of funds and when they didnt he had to eat potatoes and rice.
It is Paul who said that ministers were to get paid DOUBLE wages because of the work they do....1st Tim 5:17......and its clear he is talking about material because the context is an OX EATING.
So, Paul is not talking about a spiritual backrub, Mike.
He's talking about a double paycheck worthy of the work.
However, Paul did not say to own a fleet of Lexus automobiles and 8 private jets is proof of spirituality, as he said the greatest gain of all is Godliness with contentment.
However, by saying the phrase the greatest gain of all.....he is also saying that there are other lesser gains as well, and this includes MONEY.
The way he differentiates the greatest gain from lesser gain in 1 Tim 6:6, is the same way he describes greater spiritual gifts as compared to "tongues", in Corinthians,.. and then he says that Charity of heart is greater gain the all the spiritual gifts.
We are never to think of material gain as "godliness", as material gain is just a tool that is the blessing of help.



There inlies the rub on the property gospel. At a time when someone is experiencing Paul's "without", this doctrine could well leave them in despair, doubting their own salvation. They are being robbed of His Peace and abundance in Christ by hearing false teachers tell them it's their fault. For this reason, I believe this is among the worst of all lies that has infiltrated the Church. :gah


Well, lucky for you, i dont share a prosperity gospel.
I also never suggest that salvation is based or lost on seeing an increase of your bank account.
My threads have one vision.....and that is ito get a Christian to understand how to view their status in God's family so that their salvation is realized in a deeper way, which of course makes them more eternally secure in their belief.....and the other thing i focus the believer towards is the understanding that because we are One with God and Christ, then this gives us complete and personal access to all God has, All God is, and All that God can do.
And when a believer's spiritual eyes are opened to realize that they have blood bought born again legal birthright and an elevated status in God's Kingdom family, they begin to see themselves in life and in God with a whole new value......and once that happens they are able to see their faith as God wants them to see it....as HIS DIVINE POWER given to them, based on their position of Authority in his family.
From this spiritual position and revelation, they can now empower their faith on the foundation reality of who they are according to God, and this energizes and activates their faith to be real.


to be continued..............

.................

 

[Kidron]

continued.........


Mike.......listen.........Christians, most of them dont have any solid faith and this is because they try to think of it as....."well, ive been good so God might just answer my prayer".....But this thinking is the death of faith as its emotionally based....and the reason it is useless is because the devil will come and say to you...."do you remember last week when you did that".....
So, there goes their faith.......he steals it right from their hearts.

Imagine being in the ER......there is your mother dying, (car wreck) and the Docs are saying....."no hope".."brain dead"..and you need God to heal the situation, and you go out in the dark parking lot weeping and you begin to cry to God to help..
You know why he wont?...Because as soon as you try to believe he will, the Devil will remind your mind of that R-rated movie you saw 2 days ago that you knew you should have not rented from Redbox.
The devil will remind you of how many times you said the F-word in the last few days.
The devil will remind you that you dont really believe that Jesus heals anymore.
The devil will remind you of all your sins from the past 2 weeks and 2 years and suddenly your little bit of faith is NOTHING.....and so, God cant help.
Coz he does not work without Faith....He does not answer faithless prayers.
So, the devil has just killed your mother..(John 10:10)
Do you understand?
But let me show you how you get your mother helped.
You go to the parking lot, and in your mind you KNOW that you are a Son of God who has blood bought covenant LEGAL rights to have your Father hear your prayer.
You go to the parking lot KNOWING you are an Heir of God and you have a divine and legal born again birthright that gives you confidence that God must answer your prayer because he is the one who legalized your right to expect him to do it.
You go to the parking lot knowing that answered prayer is your RIGHT as a SON of God, and because of this Status-right, your faith has a solid foundation that Satan cant touch with accusations, because your status as a Son of God is why your prayer will be answered, and not because of your behavior..
This revelation frees you from doubt and once doubt goes ....Faith lives.
And nothing can withstand the intervention of God, and nothing can stop him from intervening when Faith involves him.
God lives to help and heal and solve and restore and create.
God is "the man" when it comes to taking the bad and making it the good.
Fixing the broken and doing the impossible....Is God doing his will.
And Jesus died so that God could help us.
Its impossible for God to do nothing when he is the one who created the Faith system, and we activate it.
He used it to create all of creation, and he gave it to us to use by right.
Its ours, and once we accept our legal status to access all he has then Faith is no longer just a definition in Hebrews,(11:1) but instead it becomes the very spiritual force of God to change a circumstance from bad to good,....from wrong to right, ....from broken to restored,... from helpless to healed.


Paul had a thorn that was not removed. He was told His Grace was sufficient. IT IS!! Many believers have "thorns", and His Grace is always sufficient.


Paul had a thorn, it was given to him by Satan's messenger, and God, at that time, in that letter, didnt remove it.
He may have removed it later.
Your bible doesn't say.
And also, that verse never says that you will be given a thorn in the flesh, and that verse never says that God gave it to Paul.
So, never accuse God of giving a believer sickness, using that verse.
And never believe that God didnt remove it later from Paul just as he took away Job's suffering that Satan brought.
And be careful that you do not confuse what happened to Paul with some doctrine of sickness that you feel you need to preach to believers.
Listen, Mike.....every apostle except for John, died a violent and often horrible death.
Paul refers to this as an Apostle situation, in Colossians 1:24..."and now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up that WHICH IS BEHIND of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church....25: Whereof I am made a minister.....that is to say... Paul was called for this purpose.
This verse is showing you that the apostles had a situation regarding becoming martyrs that had to do with their ministry and they all died as martyrs....except for John, and history does not give us his end.
We only know where he died, but not how.
So, this is not the rule for the average Christian.
These are the original apostles of Christ, early on, and God was using their death to encourage and grow and flame his early church.
God will sometimes send a martyr into a place to die so that their death inflames the church in that area to grow wildly and intensely..
99.9% of believers are not in that situation at this point., so, dont grasp at the Apostles type of martyr discipleship and try to conclude that it is for everyone who is saved.
If you do that, you have to take it to mean that all of us are supposed to die for the cross violently.
And that is not the case for most in 2012, as of yet..
However, in the case of the Apostles, and for the Body of Christ's purpose needed at that time, it was necessary for them to be martyr'd for the Gospel.
This is what Paul is describing by,... "and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ"..
See, the "afflictions of Christ" is literal here, and Paul is explaining to you why he was beaten with stripes, as Christ was, and why he was executed as Christ was......
AS this was what they were called to do....they were called to die as martyr's.
We, in general, are not....tho sometimes a saint is called to do it.
But that is the exception and not the rule.
So, dont try to make the sufferings of Paul, which were extreme, the rule for the body of Christ.



K

 

[Kidron]

that actually gives me hope and a reminder of my identity in Christ. And like you said with faith...
very empoweringI more realize now when Jesus said in Matthew 8:26 " He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm."

i could sum up my understanding on this in John 10:10 “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.”<O:p</O:p

Amen sister

 

[reba]

Reba,.
Ive never said a thing about any "gospel of prosperity", so you have no idea what you are talking about.
So, no need to put your words in my mouth, as they dont fit.

You may not use the words prosperity gospel but you are trying to sell it... I will not be part of your heresies any longer....No more to be used as a sounding board.

 

[Mike]

Kidron, that was a very impassioned response, and I don't expect you to recognize that all your references to heirs and such can and should be seen as spiritual first rather than in financial and physical prosperity. It's always been about that. You don't hold that every faithful believer should be wildly wealthy. I get that! But you still believe that temporal comforts are always to be expected. I don't believe they are. He may bless us with physical wealth, but He may not. In either case, we should be grateful for what we've been blessed with. I'm not one to condemn even the wealthiest billionaire, because on both sides of the coin, it comes down to the condition of the heart.

I'm killing time in my car until I have to head into a school board meeting, so I'm limited by my phone. I'm not going to be able to quote scripture right now. But I wanted to acknowledge your response. I won't spend a lot of time in this thread, because I know how it could go on endlessly. Here's my take in a nutshell.

Believers can be equally heirs whether poor or wealthy.
The wealthy can be faithful servants.
The poor can be led by selfish ambitions.
What matters most is the condition of our hearts.
Faithful servants might not be in perfect health.
God always answers prayer, though we may not recognize it when it happens.

That's all I can do for now, friend.

 

[Kidron]

You may not use the words prosperity gospel but you are trying to sell it... I will not be part of your heresies any longer....No more to be used as a sounding board.

Reba,

you are welcome to your opinion......np.
And you are welcome to come back if you want to talk more.
I noted that you are unable to post a quote of mine that sustains your issue or proves your complaint.
There is reason for that.
Its very simple.
I dont write about a prosperity gospel here on this interesting forum.
Instead, all the threads that ive posted related to theology have all maintained a very focused and central theme and revelation.

I have written to believing Christians who want to grow deeper in God and more faithful to Christ.
I realize that many Christians have come to a place in their faith walk where they believe that they know everything, and these types are not able to receive from God and will not receive from him.
But, there are others, sincere, hungry, wanting more of God, expecting more from God, and they dont understand why they are in the same place this year they were 2 or 4 or 6 years ago.
They read their bible, they love the Lord, they go to church, and yet, they dont have the deep experience in God that they know is available and they want it.
So, i came here, knowing they are here, and my only purpose here is to show them why they have not yet evolved into a more faith filled and joy filled believer.

See, Reba, a believer cannot mature in the spirit beyond the revelation knowledge they have regarding how God operates in their life based on who they are "in Christ".
And they need a good teacher of the Word like me to expose them to revelation and Word so that the Spirit of God can reveal to the eyes of their understanding more light.
So, i came here to simply and thoroughly explain and expose them to a central idea of deeper light.
And that is....that legally, based on the blood bought covenant that Jesus signed with his blood and death, we as Sons of God and Heirs of God, have access to all God is, all God has, and all God can do.
We as the children of God, as born again heirs of God, posses the legal covenant right to All God has, All God is, and All God can do.
We, as God's blood bought family members and heirs, have the right to expect him to do for us what he said, as we are co-owners of all he is and all he has.
And moreover, because we are in God and God is in us, we have the divine authority of God by right to act on his behalf as ambassadors of Light, using the Power of Christ by Faith, to execute his will in the earth,... And his will is to save, to restore, to execute healing, to influence, to convict, and to bless.
We are to do exactly the works of Christ, exactly as he did them, as its the exact same Jesus who is IN US who does the work through us.
That is our ministry, that is our faith walk, which is based on our legal right to do the works of a Son of God, exactly as Jesus who is a Son of God did them, as this is the Kingdom of God in Christ authority we have been given by born again birthright.
And all the provision and prosperity to meet our personal needs and the needs of our ministry, found in God's "riches in Glory", are ours by right based on our birthright status in the family of God as "heirs of God" and are accessed by Faith..

So my mission here is to open this deeper light so that a sincere and hungry believer can discover their position of authority in Christ .
This is so that they can move into the deeper realm of God knowledge which allows them to become more of a Light of Christ.
Thats God's will for all his Children of Light.






K

 

[Kidron]

Kidron, that was a very impassioned response, and I don't expect you to recognize that all your references to heirs and such can and should be seen as spiritual first rather than in financial and physical prosperity. It's always been about that.


Actually, you are once again not stating accurately what im explaining.
I think im being really clear to say this...
We as Sons of God have a legal right of access to all God has, all God is, and all that God can do...
So, if you only see that biblical truth as "money", then thats not my fault.
Instead I am constantly stressing that the idea of a believer's born again legal authority is to do the will of God using God's power and his provision, in ministry.
So, if you still cant get that after ive written thousands of words about it, then you are just not looking....


You don't hold that every faithful believer should be wildly wealthy. I get that! But you still believe that temporal comforts are always to be expected. I don't believe they are.


I'll tell you what.
"It is the Lord who became poor so that we could become blessed(rich), and the Lord gives you power to get wealth, and God delights in the prosperity of his saints, and Jesus came to give you ON EARTH abundant life and that more abundantly."
So, Mike, at the judgement seat, you can have a conversation with Jesus and explain to him that "power to get wealth', and Deut 28 should not be in the bible and are not designed for New Testament Children of God.
I on the other hand, will not be having that conversation with him.
Instead, here... i'll just continue to expose the light of authority that we have as believers to access legally all the gain that God has to give for ministry and personal needs to any Christian who wants to believe that the will of God is for his children to be blessed and to do his will.
I will never teach them to expect that God has saved them and healed them by the "stripes" of Jesus to make them sick and broke and confused about their position "in Christ"..
I'll leave that to you and Reba.
And also, if you read my thread about, "the right way to suffer", then if you see the word ""suffer"" in the title, then you have to conclude that i dont consider that any Christian should live in comfort to the point they are useless for God.
I think you are substituting "lazy ease" with "abundant life".
Im not confusing them.
I live in Israel, and i can promise you that there is very little easy living found here.
I dont have it., thats a fact.
But i am blessed and i know why.

No Christian gets out of this life without some tears and some pain.
But, there is a difference between the sometimes harsh effects of just being alive.... with teaching that all bad things come from God so that you can build character like Paul.
That type theology is very dangerous., because if you believe that you will perhaps spend years suffering a destruction the Devil brought to you, because you think God gave it to you to grow you.
So, a believer can waste years and perhaps die in this theological circle of confusion instead of having the quality of Life Jesus died to provide for you so that you can serve him.
Health is life, and Jesus is Life.
Anything else, is not abundant life.
Did you ever notice that Jesus was never sick, and never cast sickness INTO a person?
Did you ever notice that during the exodus of the Jews from Egypt, that even tho they wandered around a 20 square mile piece of dirt for 40 years, not a single one of them
was ever SICK with a disease....for 40 years?
Their clothes/shoes didnt even wear out.
(This is God's prosperity and provision)
So, do you think the blessing of God for a Son of God in the new testament is supposed to be less?
Study about this.


He may bless us with physical wealth, but He may not. In either case, we should be grateful for what we've been blessed with. I'm not one to condemn even the wealthiest billionaire, because on both sides of the coin, it comes down to the condition of the heart.



Well, to begin with, Christ, by his stripes, has already healed all believers, (1st Peter 2:24)..so, the healing is there,its furnished, its available, but the application is not that commonly found because of a faith issue.... (But im here to deal with that.....see my Threads)

And ive not said God is there to make you rich or to provide for your greed because you have a legal right to his wealth.
Ive not ever said that you are to expect to be "rich".
You are confusing me with a few out of balance TV preachers.
Ive only said 50 times that Gods, "riches in Glory" are spiritual and they are material, and are given to meet our personl needs and to be used in our ministry according to his will.
If you will actually read my threads you will see that ive spoken about the fact that God requires us to understand to be contented with what we have so that his blessings above all that, which are ours by birthright, are to be received with the right heart.



Believers can be equally heirs whether poor or wealthy.
The wealthy can be faithful servants.
The poor can be led by selfish ambitions.
What matters most is the condition of our hearts.
Faithful servants might not be in perfect health.
God always answers prayer, though we may not recognize it when it happens.

That's all I can do for now, friend.


Well, God always hears a believer's prayer, but he does not answer it unless there is Faith to activate his response.
If you read your gospels, you can read that Jesus could do very little in Nazareth because of their "unbelief".
There is a reason that Jesus said "YOUR FAITH has made you whole".
and "you shall have whatsoever you saith" if only you can believe.
So, faith is the switch and God is waiting to be turned on on our behalf as need be.
And ive not said that every saint has perfect health.
They dont.
However, its not God that brings sickness or poverty.
And its our right to walk in health, as there is no sickness where Jesus lives, and he lives in you.
You might want to check and see if he is home, Mike;-)

There is no sickness in the Kingdom of God, and you happen to be seated "in Christ" in it, "sealed unto the day of redemption", as you read this.
So, Sickness and Poverty are not included with the salvation package, and they are not found in the Christ who is in you, and they are not found in The Kingdom of God, ... so you have to find their cause in another place.
John 10:10 is a good place to start looking.



K

.................

 

[Mike]

And its our right to walk in health, as there is no sickness where Jesus lives, and he lives in you.
You might want to check and see if he is home, Mike;-)

Kidron, I'll thank you for questioning whether I or any professed believer is in Christ. I don't tolerate that accusation on this site, even if it's made in the form of a question.

You continue to use references to life, abundant life, heirs, riches, etc. and draw incorrect conclusions that the Lord is referring to temporal things, IMHO. So, you can fill the pages citing scripture that speaks to these things and feel like you're building a strong case for the prosperity gospel, but since they are talking about the riches of His Kingdom to come and of His Peace now, they don't support your stance.

When Christ spoke of the "least of these, the poor, the last, the meek" and said they will inherit or be first. And He meant in the resurrection. Jesus told His disciples that the world will always have its poor, and He encouraged them to follow Him. I believe this is because the most important thing He wanted to impress on them was the need to know Him so that later when He wasn't with them, they would then "feed My sheep".

One doesn't have to believe in the extreme wealth of Christians for it to be prosperity preaching. It can be any message that you will be Given temporal things that have no lasting value if you believe that makes it so.
I would be uncomfortable with that term, myself, but you are right there in this false doctrine.

 

[Kidron]

Kidron, I'll thank you for questioning whether I or any professed believer is in Christ. I don't tolerate that accusation on this site, even if it's made in the form of a question.


Mike, considering all the "walks like a duck" sarcasm you've spewed at me for 3 weeks here and in pm's, i think you need to be able to tolerate a joke.
Ive had to tolerate you, haven't i?
So, as i was kidding about "checking yourself"....just take it standing up, ok?
No harm no foul.
After all, i have to continue to listen to you tell me all your opinion as if its true, for, about a month now....

You continue to use references to life, abundant life, heirs, riches, etc. and draw incorrect conclusions that the Lord is referring to temporal things,


And you continue to state your theology without using a quote of mine or a scripture reference.
Im not quite sure why you need to spiritualize every symbol and allegory in the New Testament, however, if that is how you filter, then, that is how you filter.


IMHO. So, you can fill the pages citing scripture that speaks to these things and feel like you're building a strong case for the prosperity gospel, but since they are talking about the riches of His Kingdom to come and of His Peace now, they don't support your stance.


You can continue to try to supply some guilt by association nonsense to your sarcasm, and i'll tolerate it, however, ive taught no prosperty gospel.
As a matter of fact, im not mentioned tithing since i got here, mike.
And there is no such thing as a prosperity gospel, without dealing with the Tithe.
But see, im not talking about our right to God's provision the way you define it....which is to say......"its all about the money".
But rather im dealing with how to access, by right of birthright, the provision of God so that our needs are met and our ministry is financed.
And also, i have taught a whole lot regarding how understanding your authority as a Son of God empowers your faith so that its not just a dead lifeless thing based on feelings of doubt, but rather its an empowered force that actually works as God designed it to work for you.


When Christ spoke of the "least of these, the poor, the last, the meek" and said they will inherit or be first. And He meant in the resurrection. Jesus told His disciples that the world will always have its poor, and He encouraged them to follow Him.

However, Jesus never told you that a believer was to be poor.
He said there will always be the poor.
There will also always be the blind and the lame and the evil.
But this is not a command for a Christian to be one.
Its a backwards understanding of the goodness of God to try to associate poverty and sickness with the Cross.
The cross is given to restore, its not given to harm, therefore your doctrine is false.



I believe this is because the most important thing He wanted to impress on them was the need to know Him so that later when He wasn't with them, they would then "feed My sheep".


He didnt say "my sheep the poor".
You did.
And im not sure why you have such a fascination with poverty.
Did you take a vow with Reba?
Mike, "poverty is the destruction of the poor"...
Proverbs 10:15
So, if you want destruction for believers, then just keep teaching them that poverty is their God given direction.
You can then destroy any and all that would follow your teaching, as "poverty is the destruction of the poor".....according to your bible.


One doesn't have to believe in the extreme wealth of Christians for it to be prosperity preaching. It can be any message that you will be Given temporal things that have no lasting value if you believe that makes it so.
I would be uncomfortable with that term, myself, but you are right there in this false doctrine.


.
I have always been very clear, when discussing "riches in Glory", (which are ours as all God has is ours by legal birthright)......that all of God's blessings are geared towards our needs and never our greed.
And these provisions, that God has, to finance our lives and our ministry, are necessary, as he is the one who provides them, so this indicates he is the one who created the faith system to be used , according to his will, to help us so that we are able to complete his will in the earth....



K

.................

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Kidron,

I've read a lot of your posts, and I think in part you have some of it right, but I also think that it's a little more dynamic than your trying to make it be.

Love and suffering go hand in hand. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son.

As a Christian, we can suffer for many reasons. We can suffer because of past mistakes, we can suffer from unjust persecution, we can suffer because of broken relationships. The list is long, but the point is that life is fragile.

Sometimes God takes the hedge out from around us, and like Job, God allows Satan to bring us to a low spot in our life. Like Job, sometimes we start to thinking that were not doing enough, or we get carried away in our own religion. Perhaps we get like a stale marriage where we're doing everything right, but our love has gone stale and before we know it, our focus has become our jobs, income, sports, cars, hobbies... whatever it is that distracts us from what is truly important, and that is growing our relationship with one another, and with God. It is from this perspective that I believe God allows tribulation in our life because sometimes we need to suffer, before we cry out to God before we can see how our relationship is lacking.

As far as having our money taken away or our health, we live in a fallen world. Life happens and we cannot control every aspect of our lives, and we can't pin our situation on God. I know of a very Godly man who lost his 8 year old son when his son fell off the tractor and into the brushhog. It was a gruesome death.. to see your own innocent son chopped into bloody pieces. I couldn't begin to imagine. This man does not blame God, nor did he ever and his family drew closer together Unlike myself when I lost my first born. I hated God.. despised him. I was full of anger and it caused me to separate from all of my family. I was a walking time bomb making excuses to unleash my anger.

The Bible, in many places says that rain falls on the crops of the wicked as well as that of the righteous. Everybody enjoys God's blessings to a degree, and everyone suffers as well. It's just a part of this life.

I've done very well in the later half of my life, but it wasn't always like it is now. I've slept under bridges and pan handled in front of stores and I've went hungry a few times in my life and I have an appreciation for the things I have, but I dont' derive my happiness from them. What makes me happy are the relationships in my life, and that has no bearing on how much money I have in the bank.

Several years ago I was traveling across Wyoming and picked up a hitch hiker. He wandered from place to place as a ranch hand.. he didn't have 2 nickles to rub toghether. But he loved God, and we had a very rewarding talk that lasted the entire day. By biblical standards, he was very wealthy, and a true man of God. I admire him.

 

[Mike S]

We're called to emulate Christ's life of humility, service, and sacrifice, imbued with an agape love. Advice attributed to St. Francis: "Preach the Gospel always, use words if necessary."

I think you need to work on your humility, and use fewer words.

 

[Kidron]

Hi Kidron,


Love and suffering go hand in hand. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son.

I'll try to keep this simple.
Suffering, strictly in the sense of Christian service, never includes God making us sick or desiring us to be poor.
As i wrote in my Thread's opening, we as Christians, if we are to suffer, would suffer for the same reason that Jesus or Paul suffered.
Persecuted for the truth.
Where the devil gets involved in the theology is by convincing a New Testament Christian that poverty and sickness is the will of God for a believer.
This simply cannot be true as Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan.
So, what are Satan's works?
Not attributing them to your FATHER is the bottom line.

You have to understand and discern the difference between persecution that is related to the Gospel and destruction that is coming from your enemy.
If you dont, he will destroy you and you will think its God "allowing" you to "mature in faith"...2
And where the Cross gets trampled is when a believer teaches and believes that God and Christ are out there waiting to deliver the cancer, the stroke, the broken arms, the car wrecks, and the infant deaths and the severe life destroying poverty..
See the problem with "sickness theology", is that once you buy it, you have to include all sickness as a part of God's potential providence for you.
That means blindness, and deafness, and cancer, and cerebral palsy, and car wrecks....
See, once you go into that black hole of deception, you dont get to cherry pick the sickness that God sends to "test us" and "mature us".
You dont get to say, well, he would never cause throat cancer or breast cancer or a Cerebral hemorrhage...or a stroke that leaves you drooling and unable to speak and wearing a "depends" that you cant put on yourself..
Oh really?
So, this idea of "God allows us to be sick to mature us"........there is a go to list of "too extreme" that he goes by and he only gives us the easy sickness?
This is just ridiculous.
God is not in the making his children sick business.
Get ahold of that.....
If he was, then Jesus would have been making them sick., as he's GOD.
Try to find where Jesus gave anyone a "sickness test" in the New Testament.

"Well, Kidron, you dont understand........we are not saying that God is going to give you cancer, we are just saying that he allows you to get it.....
Then if that is the case, Satan is not necessary, as God is doing his job.


The Bible, in many places says that rain falls on the crops of the wicked as well as that of the righteous. Everybody enjoys God's blessings to a degree, and everyone suffers as well. It's just a part of this life.

Well, this thread assumes suffering, but the right kind for a Christian....<
However, the main thing is that a Christian needs to recognize is his status in the family of God.
And saying........"oh yeah, i know all that", and then you cant get a prayer answered, your life is miserable and not going to get better, and you have no purpose and you cant understand why the bible says one thing and you life does not reflect it......
So, the reason i am giving out so much light is because there are so many Christians sitting in darkness who are hungry for something real.
They are tired of a dead faith and a deal heaven and just existing from day to day, joyless, and in general resigned to....."sigh, its just the way it is".
And the reason they have no answer other then...."well, u just have to accept it as God's will"....is because they have not come to the knowledge yet of the authority they have been given to change their lives by faith so that what was once stale with sameness, will become alive with abundant life that only Jesus can give, which is only available to those who understand their rights to the provision of all that God has, all that God is, and all that God can do.

I've done very well in the later half of my life, but it wasn't always like it is now. I've slept under bridges and pan handled in front of stores and I've went hungry a few times in my life and I have an appreciation for the things I have, but I dont' derive my happiness from them. What makes me happy are the relationships in my life, and that has no bearing on how much money I have in the bank.

Money does not buy happiness, as its not designed to do it.
Money is a tool that is designed by God to help.
Does God want you to have enough?
YES, as if you dont, you cant help anyone and you will struggle in survival desperation instead of doing more for him, that you could do, if you didnt have the financial crush.
Money FREES YOU to do the most you can for God.
Thats why it matters, thats why he wants you to have it.
Health and money, if you dont have them, you have to deal with their absence, and this is a TIME SUCK that can rob your life from you....and if your life is being robbed, its never going to be as focused on the Gospel as it could be if you were free from the chase of trying to be healthy and trying to survive.
If you think you can do more for God from a wheelchair and a ditch then you can from perfect health and a stable financial condition, then perhaps you are smoking LSD.:yes

God certainly knows that without health and a secure financial state, you are going to be involved in getting all that together full time when you could be in his service all that time.
That is the other reason he wants his children healthy and financially stable.
The first reason is because he is a Father, and no father who is sane, would want his child to live in financial uncertainty and health distress.
God sent his boy to a cross to bear our infirmities and restore us, and he did.
Infirmities are not just sins....
Infirmities are laying in your bed awake at 2am when you cant pay your bills and its Christmas and you have no money and your kids are hoping for Toys and your heart is broken again because another Christmas has come and they get a card and some food.
And i know the meaning of Christmas, all ye spiritual ones....no worries.
But i also know how life can be....

Infirmities are having to hitch a ride to your 3rd job because all 3 paychecks cant fix your blown engine.
Infirmities are living in uncertainty, fear, strangling stress, that is related to LACK of all types.
God wants to remove the punishing lack, so that your life stabilizes, because if its not, your TIME IS ROBBED trying to get it together.
That means the devil is keeping you so involved in life matters that you have no time as you should to do the will of God.
See, u are bought with a price, so your time belongs to God, not you.
So, if he makes you poor and keeps you struggling as some here are proclaiming, then he has defeated his purpose as you'll have no time for him, as you are too busy dealing with that cancer he sent you while he was causing you to lose your job.



Several years ago I was traveling across Wyoming and picked up a hitch hiker. He wandered from place to place as a ranch hand.. he didn't have 2 nickles to rub toghether. But he loved God, and we had a very rewarding talk that lasted the entire day. By biblical standards, he was very wealthy, and a true man of God. I admire him.


I like Francis of Assisi and Rich Mullens....

So, in your perspective, a conversation with a broke christian is the definition of what a "true man of God" is all about?
I look at it differently.
I look at a Christian's personal life and i evaluate the way they spend their time.
I know Christians who can talk all day about gifts of the Spirit and they've never won a soul to Christ in 30 years.
I know Christians that have a library of biblical theological studies and have not won a soul to Christ, ever.
I know Christians that have not missed a Sunday Church service in 25 years, and have not won a single soul to Christ in their entire born again life.

I'll tell you something brother...
We are heading to the Judgment seat of Christ.
He is going to look into our eyes and soul and we are going to have to explain to Jesus Christ why we did so little for him when he gave us so much time.
That is a fact to face.
God has given us all the provision to do the same works the same way that Christ who is in us did them.
And arguing about why we should instead be sick and thankful for it, is not going to fly very well when we meet the Master.
You see, the Master died to give us his power and his authority and even his glory, and within all this, comes health and financial stability.
Its a slap in the face of God to deny what he has provided simply because some would rather live the life of lack so that they can feel as if they are spiritual....."like Paul" or Richard Wurmbrand.....or Mother Theresa.

"Well, what did you feed my sheep"...."i fed them the gospel of lack and hardship you died to provide them because i just could not allow the idea that you wanted us healthy and financially secure to exist in my theology of invent a cross to bear and convince myself that you gave it to me...
Other then that Lord, i never would believe that the devil can make us sick and broke, so, i decided to tell all the Christians i could find that you did it to them as a test......isnt that great. !!"

"But i said i am the Lord who gives you power to get wealth, and i said that the prosperity of the saints makes me happy.. and i said that by my Stripes you WERE healed, and i said that poverty is the destruction of the poor... and i told you that you had the inheritance of Abraham and access to my riches in Glory as a joint heir of mine..."....."well i know the bible says all that Lord, but all that is "spiritual stuff", and you know how it goes Lord.....you have your opinion and i have mine...



K

........

 

[Drew]

The Bible, in many places says that rain falls on the crops of the wicked as well as that of the righteous. Everybody enjoys God's blessings to a degree, and everyone suffers as well. It's just a part of this life.

Agree. To abstract this a bit and give it some Biblical grounding, the Scriptures teach that while the kingdom of God is already here, it is an unfolding, evolving project.

I suggest that it is quite clear that the Bible rules out the position that suffering, poverty, may still be the lot of the most devoted believer. Here are some relevant texts:

Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like <SUP class=crossreference value='(U)'></SUP>a man who sowed good seed in his field. <SUP class=versenum>25 </SUP>But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. <SUP class=versenum>26 </SUP>When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
<SUP class=versenum>27 </SUP>“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
<SUP class=versenum>28 </SUP>“‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
<SUP class=versenum>29 </SUP>“‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. <SUP class=versenum>30 </SUP>Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’â€

This is quite clear - as the kingdom advances, there will still be weeds.

Another, from Paul:

For he must reign <SUP class=crossreference value='(AT)'></SUP>until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

This text shows that victory over the enemies of the kingdom is achieved incrementally, and we therefore have no reason to suppose that, at the present time, the enemies of poverty and suffering have been defeated.

 

[Drew]

Where the devil gets involved in the theology is by convincing a New Testament Christian that poverty and sickness is the will of God for a believer.
This simply cannot be true as Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan.
So, what are Satan's works?
Not attributing them to your FATHER is the bottom line.

Yes, Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan. But for your position to be established, you need to make the case that these works were destroyed starting from "day one".

And you will not be able to make that case. Why not? Because, as per my prevoius post, it is clear that both Jesus and Paul see the kingdom as advancing incrementally over time, not achieving its results "overnight".

 

[Drew]

And where the Cross gets trampled is when a believer teaches and believes that God and Christ are out there waiting to deliver the cancer, the stroke, the broken arms, the car wrecks, and the infant deaths and the severe life destroying poverty..
See the problem with "sickness theology", is that once you buy it, you have to include all sickness as a part of God's potential providence for you.

Let's be clear about something. Many of us are in no way suggesting that God "delivers illness and / or poverty". We are saying that these are the result of the fall, and that while the kingdom has already been established, it has not necessarily achieved all its goals - including, quite possibly, the defeat of sickness and poverty.

Again, the parable of the tares is clear - the kingdom initiated by Jesus will have weeds!!!