The right way to suffer.

[handy]

If you think you can do more for God from a wheelchair and a ditch then you can from perfect health and a stable financial condition, then perhaps you are smoking LSD.

Do you think you have done more for God than Joni Eareckson Tada?

Not saying you've done less, because I don't know the extent of your ministry. I do know that Joni Eareckson's ministry has touched millions all over the world and has helped not just those who are Christians but has helped people of all faith, thus extending the Gospel even further.

I also think of lesser known, but nonetheless hard working Christians that have done much for the Lord from their wheelchairs... People I know personally like Michelle, Dave and Greg.... people who were either born disabled or were in accidents that left them permanently disabled, but never allowed their broken bodies to break their spirit for the Lord or allow their disabilities to be an excuse to not minister to others. Michelle disabled from birth due to cerebral palsy was someone whom the Lord used mightily in my own life and helped disciple me to become a much stronger Christian.

I remember Dave's testimony as to how he praises God daily that God allowed him to be broken and crushed in that motorcycle accident rather than die and be forever condemned. Dave knew darn well he was living a life of a hypocrite. His testimony, based upon Matthew 5, that it's better to lose the use of your body rather than keep it and then wind up in hell, was a powerful one when he would speak to high-school and college age partier types. And Greg, who was a rising tennis star when a drunk crashed full into the car he and his fiance's brother was in... killing his fiance's brother outright and crushing his pelvis in such a way that he would never walk, or have children or be pain free again.... Yet, from his wheelchair, he started up a ministry which took kids who suffer from disabilities and helped get them to camps which would enable to develop the athletic abilities they could engage in... tennis being one of them, wheelchair racing, snow skiing... as well as developing their walk with God... His life verse and the text he based his ministry upon was 1 Corinthians 9:24-27.

We know people by their fruit. These people have done some very fruitful work for the Lord... working in ministries that not only build people up in this temporal world but also stores up treasures in heaven, both in their own lives and the lives of the people they minister to... fruitful work done from wheelchairs and the scope of which may very well exceed your work or mine...

Sorry Kidron... but that was a particularly foolish, proud and unloving statement to make. I hope it was made out of a complete ignorance of what ministries people with disabilities are doing all over the world.

 

[Drew]

One of the most fundamental questions one can ask within the setting of any worldview is "What time is it?". That is, given that one has accepted a certian model for the way the world works, that model will include a time dimension.

So what time is it in the Christian worldview?

As per statements by Jesus and Paul it is the "overlap" time - the time between the initiation of the kingdom of God (by Jesus 2000 years ago) and the time of its final, full consummation, this latter time lying still in the future.

How is this relevant? It is relevant in the sense that we live in an odd "in-between" state. Jesus "reversed the fall" at Calvary 2000 years, but the effects of that profound positive change are still propagating out through creation.

Am I making this up? No, I am not. Jesus tells us that the kingdom will advance even though the weeds will still be there, that is, until the final consummation when they will be uprooted.

And Paul agrees with Jesus in declaring that Jesus' reign will be one in which enemies are defeated slowly over time.

So anyone who says that we get relief from poverty and sickness starting on Easter Sunday simply does not know what time it is.

 

[stovebolts]

Kidron,

There is much I could write you, even that which would affirm some of your words. But I found it phenomenal that you would come to such a conclusion with the hitch hiker I picked up. Dora, do you remember me telling you about him over coffee? He left his tent in my car... I felt really bad about it, and I was reminded about him just this memorial day when we went camping... and used his tent.

Anyway Kidron, this healthy young man was doing God's work, and in a way neither you or I could ever imagine. First off, if you have food to eat tonight, then by Biblical standards, I'd say your rich. This man never worried about not having food because he knew God would provide.

He told me many stories, and one that stuck out was an evening camped near a bridge with a few other homeless people. They were sitting around the fire drinking (he wasn't) and one gal started to open up... she was seeking healing. Emotional healing that is. He brought her to Christ that night... He's brought many to Christ. You see, his mission was to seek the lost... the really lost in dark places. He knew that he had to live among them, to reach them, because they had to trust him. It afforded him the opportunity to get to know them so they would trust him... and they could see what Christ looked like living through him. I admire him for that... I'll always admire him for that. He was a man of God, and what he had, he was always willing to give, or share.

 

[reba]

Beautiful Stove and Handy.. God is so good.. Makes me smile in my heart..

 

[handy]

Kidron,

There is much I could write you, even that which would affirm some of your words. But I found it phenomenal that you would come to such a conclusion with the hitch hiker I picked up. Dora, do you remember me telling you about him over coffee? He left his tent in my car... I felt really bad about it, and I was reminded about him just this memorial day when we went camping... and used his tent.

Anyway Kidron, this healthy young man was doing God's work, and in a way neither you or I could ever imagine. First off, if you have food to eat tonight, then by Biblical standards, I'd say your rich. This man never worried about not having food because he knew God would provide.

He told me many stories, and one that stuck out was an evening camped near a bridge with a few other homeless people. They were sitting around the fire drinking (he wasn't) and one gal started to open up... she was seeking healing. Emotional healing that is. He brought her to Christ that night... He's brought many to Christ. You see, his mission was to seek the lost... the really lost in dark places. He knew that he had to live among them, to reach them, because they had to trust him. It afforded him the opportunity to get to know them so they would trust him... and they could see what Christ looked like living through him. I admire him for that... I'll always admire him for that. He was a man of God, and what he had, he was always willing to give, or share.

I do remember you telling me of him, Jeff. I could tell how blessed you were by the encounter just by the look on your face as you were telling me of it.

I'm not holding my breath that all will understand the power of someone who lives the way that man did though. Too bad... what we can learn from those who live fully by faith and not concern themselves with money or things.

 

[stovebolts]

I knew you would remember Dora!

It reminds me of the woman who gave her two wee little pennies. Jesus said it was more than the bag of money that got dropped in the dish just moments ago.

Anyone can give out of their wealth... that's the easy part. But can you give out of your poverty? That's a whole nother discussion. But then again, if one can be trusted with little, then I think one can be trusted with much

Be blessed, stay blessed... because I believe we are blessed to be a blessing to those around us.

 

[handy]

Some thoughts from a woman who has been suffering the "right" way for over 40 years.

Perhaps she can give some balance here:

http://www.dts.edu/media/play/theology-of-suffering-joni-eareckson-tada/

 

[Drew]

God certainly knows that without health and a secure financial state, you are going to be involved in getting all that together full time when you could be in his service all that time.
That is the other reason he wants his children healthy and financially stable.
The first reason is because he is a Father, and no father who is sane, would want his child to live in financial uncertainty and health distress.

Where is the Biblical support for any of this?

First, you simply assume that unless we have health and financial acumen, we will not be "doing God's service" as we will be distracted. You cannot just assume this.

Second, you appeal to the notion that as a loving "father", God would not want His children to suffer.

Well, I agree. But you cannot simply assume that God can do whatever He wants to do. Its not that simple - Adam fell and God had no choice but to inflict great suffering on His Son to fix that problem. So this idea that God will magically make all our problems go away because He loves us simply not pass Biblical muster - pain and suffering on the part of Jesus were part of the very means God has used to reverse the fall.

And we are called to walk the path Jesus walked.

 

[Mike]

@ Kidron, either that was more light-hearted humor, you were thinking of someone else, or you were shamelessly fabricating our interactions. You tell me, because we shared a few PM's immediately after one of your threads was locked about 3 weeks ago, and those were only because I was responding to you. And I've hardly interacted with you on the board. This was the first of your threads on this topic that we have engaged in.

So, I hope we can move on from whatever that was. All good here!

I'm not sure I've seen anyone imply that God inflicts physical illness or disability, but a number of members shared biblical reasons to believe He permits them among believers without healing in this life.

As I've said, it's difficult for me to flip around on my phone and quote scripture, but I have referred to it. If you're unable to infer the scripture I'm referring to, try to Google it. For instance, try to Google "where I am weak, He is strong", and contrast that with your notion that we cannot be effective in our ministry when we are not "whole" in this life.

In Revelation 21, Jesus Promises us there will be no more tears, crying, or pain. This tells me that His Promise is to keep us now but that we can't necessarily expect perfect comfort until Creation is restored.

@ Dora, I was specifically thinking of Joni E. when I read Kidron's post. Her testimony has been a blessing to countless people, including my wife who's not sick or disabled BTW. She is a living example of His strength in our weakness. Only God knows how many Joni's have furthered His Kingdom more than they might have without being broken. :yes

@ Jeff, we can all draw lessons from the guy you picked up, even when we weren't there. He's a great picture of the birds and lilies of the field Jesus spoke of. What a faith walk! Some of the most Godly people I have ever met were among the poorest in my trips to Brazil. By existing in dependence to get to every next day, they were also among the very most Blessed.

 

[jasoncran]

charles spurgeon called his depression a blessing from god.

 

[handy]

I certainly thank God all the time for my infertility.

 

[Kidron]

[/FONT][/B]
Yes, Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan. But for your position to be established, you need to make the case that these works were destroyed starting from "day one".

And you will not be able to make that case. Why not? Because, as per my prevoius post, it is clear that both Jesus and Paul see the kingdom as advancing incrementally over time, not achieving its results "overnight".

Drew,

lets keep this really simple., lest the reader get bogged down in vague scriptures that are open to 1000 interpretations.

Here is what we know,.

Jesus is the king of a Kingdom that the bible says its within you.
Its called the Kingdom of God.
And we know that Jesus is the Lord of Lords and King of Kings right now and sooner then we think he will be here and every knee will bow and every tonguee confess that he is Lord.
Now he is already Lord, and he has already defeated Satan.
His Kingdom is established and he is coming soon to reign literally, bodily, physically, and we with him.
The bible says the last enemy to be defeated is death, and it says that right now, "all things are put under the feet of Jesus", 1st Corin 15:27.
So, he is already the King, and this King lives in us, and we are heirs of this King and his Father.
So, this is our established position in Christ, in the Kingdom of Christ, and in this Kingdom there is no sickness and no poverty.
We are in this Kingdom and its within us.

see my Thread...

 

[jasoncran]

sometimes we grow from our suffering and or going without.that is the whole point of what spurgeon preached on his bouts of depression that he had to lean on god to make it daily and learned far more about god then he would have if he wasnt depressed.

 

[handy]

So, this is our established position in Christ, in the Kingdom of Christ, and in this Kingdom there is no sickness and no poverty.

Except that, for now and until we are resurrected with our imperishable bodies, there is sickness and poverty.

It's hard when theological theory smacks up against a wall of indisputable facts. But, there is both poverty and sickness within the Kingdom of God as it stands here and now.

Because, obviously, Joni Eareckson Tada is part of God's Kingdom, here and now. My friends Michelle, Dave and Greg are part of God's kingdom, here and now. My nephew (Down's Syndrome, Autism, and is deaf) and my brother-in-law (severe cerebral palsy) are part of God's kingdom, here and now.

So are the poor of Darfur. So are prisoners in China who have nothing.

God didn't reject the poor of Darfur or China any more than He rejected these people with their obviously broken bodies... but but just as He hasn't showered prosperity down upon Darfur, He hasn't healed these people yet either.

So, if there is no sickness or poverty in God's Kingdom (Kidron's theological theory) then the fact that there are both poor and sick people in God's kingdom who remain poor and/or sick means:
a) God has no power over sickness or poverty. He wants His children healthy and prosperous, but the devil is just too good at what he does and God can't do nuthin' about it.
b) God can do something about it, if these people were really part of His kingdom, but since they are poor (like those in Darfur) or they are broken physically (like Joni or Greg) then they truly aren't of God's kingdom... they are only fooling themselves believing they trust in God when they in fact don't know Him.

Well, as Kidron rightly said in a different thread about God:

He has control......He controls it all.
He has ownership....He owns it all.
He has authority....Authority over it all.

...so there is no doubt that God can instantly heal any broken body and there is no doubt that God can rain showers of abundance down upon the refugee camps of Darfur.

And, although I know people won't know Greg, or Michelle or Dave... Joni is very well known and one only has to listen to her testimony or read one of her over 40 books to see that she genuinely has the Holy Spirit and walks the walk of true faith every day. Also, unless one has been privileged to go to Darfur, or be able to speak to someone who has been there personally, one has to take in faith that the Christians there, amongst the poorest people upon the face of the earth, have a deep and abiding faith in God. But, those who do travel there are often blown away at the strong faith and testimonies of our Christian brothers and sisters there.

Now, if it's a fact that God has control over all (and He does).... and a fact that He owns all (and He does) and a fact that He has authority over all (and He does) ... and it's also a fact that there are Christians who are born into, live and die in abject poverty and there are Christians who have very broken and sick bodies that are not healed, then it stands to reason that He allows sickness and poverty within His kingdom.

 

[Drew]

Drew,

lets keep this really simple., lest the reader get bogged down in vague scriptures that are open to 1000 interpretations.

The scriptures I have provided are not open to "a 1000 interpretations".

They are crystal clear:

1. In the parable of the tares, Jesus clearly asserts that the nature of the kingdom is such that it will advance over time (to a conclusion that clearly still lies in the future), and during that time, there will be "weeds", that is problems and imperfections. These problems can, of course, include poverty and suffering.

2. Paul states that Jesus must reign until all enemies are defeated. Have all enemies been defeated, including death, at this point in time? Clearly not. So, again, we are told to expect that there will indeed be problems during the interval from the initiation of the kingdom (2000 years ago), till the defeat of the final enemy - death - which clearly lies in the future.

These texts all by themselves entirely subvert the argument that Christians are to be spared sickness and / or poverty.

 

[Drew]

Jesus is the king of a Kingdom that the bible says its within you.
Its called the Kingdom of God.

No. The kingdom is not simply "within you" - it is everywhere. Jesus is a king of everything right now. Not just our inner lives.

Some assert that a brief of teaching in Luke 17, particularly verse 21, locate the kingdom of God as “inside†the believer, with the implication that the broader world does not fall under its jurisdiction. Here are several translations of verse 21:

NET: nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ For indeed, the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

kingdom</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">God</st1:PlaceName> is in your midst.â€

NIV: nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">kingdom</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">God</st1:PlaceName> is within you."

NASB: nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">kingdom</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">God</st1:PlaceName> is in your midst."

NLT: You won’t be able to say, ‘Here it is!’ or ‘It’s over there!’ For the <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">Kingdom</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">God</st1:PlaceName></ST1:p is among you."

MSG:Nor when someone says, 'Look here!' or, 'There it is!' And why? Because God's kingdom is already among you."

BBE: And men will not say, See, it is here! or, There! for the <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">kingdom</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">God</st1:PlaceName> is among you.

NRSV: nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ For, in fact, the <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">kingdom</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">God</st1:PlaceName> is among you."

NKJV: "nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">kingdom</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">God</st1:PlaceName> is within you."

Note how only 2 of these 8 translations render the last bit as “within youâ€. All the other translations have Jesus telling the listeners that the Kingdom is “in your midst†or “among you†– suggesting, of course, that the kingdom is “present right nowâ€.

And the fatal blow to the “within you†interpretation arises from who Jesus is speaking to:

Now at one point the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming, so he answered, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed

If Jesus is saying that the “location†of the kingdom is specifically “within the human personâ€, Jesus is telling the Pharisees that the kingdom of God is within them, the Pharisees, in this sense.

Not likely, of course – the Pharisees were precisely the ones in whom the kingdom was not present.

This may not be relevant to the immediate issue, but people need to understand that this "within you" reading is not really Biblically correct.

 

[Kidron]

@ Kidron, either that was more light-hearted humor, you were thinking of someone else, or you were shamelessly fabricating our interactions. You tell me,


No shameless fabs going on here.
You state your opinion on my Threads just like you state it in your pms to me.
The difference here is that you call me Kidron on the forum while you call me Kidding in your pms.



I'm not sure I've seen anyone imply that God inflicts physical illness or disability, but a number of members shared biblical reasons to believe He permits them among believers without healing in this life.


If you say that God allows some of his kids to get cancer to make them stronger, you are implying he is A-OK with it.
(If it walks like a duck with a rose in its mouth)..etc.
And if you think he is A-OK with allowing his children to get cancer (sickness) then "by his stripes you were healed" is a lie.....and someone needs to tell Peter and Isaiah and Jesus.
Somebody is not being honest in that trio.
You should tell them, Mike.



As I've said, it's difficult for me to flip around on my phone and quote scripture, but I have referred to it. If you're unable to infer the scripture I'm referring to, try to Google it. For instance, try to Google "where I am weak, He is strong", and contrast that with your notion that we cannot be effective in our ministry when we are not "whole" in this life.


Mike, apparently you live in your car and are once again unable to quote me, and instead you are inventing off the cuff.
Ive never said that someone who is sick, cant at the same time do some good for the Father, ...what i said is that no one who is truly sick and broke, is ever going to be as effective as if they are healthy and financially secure.
The reason is............for example.........If you are puking your chemo 3x a week for 5 years before it kills you, and all your money is spent trying to pay for the chemo....just when in all that suffering time suck are you going to be able to give God 100% or even 80%?
Not going to happen Mike.
You wont have the strength, the mental facility, or the time, as you will be preoccupied with trying to stay alive and find a way to pay it all off.
I know all about this because ive been one of the chemo people.
I was healed from all that , and that is why i know what im talking about.
Im not some random Sunday service church member who plays with the bible on forums for fun.
I know the difference first hand between being persecuted for the Cross and being destroyed by the enemy.
I know what its like to previously not have the real faith to overcome the Devil because my faith at one time was not empowered by the revelation of who i am in Christ.
And the reason i know all about how to execute the faith that delivers your life from death, is because i was once one of those suffering saints that thought that all hardships were tests and all tests were hardships and sickness and poverty, etc.
I learned that this type of martyr complex nonsense has its root in pride, and its pride that keeps a Christian stuck and useless when they could be delivered and doing the work of God instead of trying to sound spiritual while they play with their Ipad on their way to rent "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" from redbox..


In Revelation 21, Jesus Promises us there will be no more tears, crying, or pain. This tells me that His Promise is to keep us now but that we can't necessarily expect perfect comfort until Creation is restored.


Ive got an idea.
Read a thread found on this forum entitled "The right way to SUFFER".
If you read it, you'll discover that the author has spoken very clearly about suffering, the types, and which type is not for a Christian and why.


@ Dora, I was specifically thinking of Joni E. when I read Kidron's post. Her testimony has been a blessing to countless people, including my wife who's not sick or disabled BTW. She is a living example of His strength in our weakness. Only God knows how many Joni's have furthered His Kingdom more than they might have without being broken. :yes

Yes, i can somewhat relate....as for 7 years I had an incurable and chronic blood disease that left me 100% disabled.
You've heard of muscular dystrophy?......i had a variation of it.
God healed me .
So Mike, do you think my Testamony will be a blessing to people here and everywhere i share it... who are thinking they are stuck in a wheelchair or stuck eating chemo or stuck with no way to pay their light bill for life?
And i would not be the one who would blame God for Joni's condition, nor would i be the one who would imply that God's desire for her is to remain in that condition.
I'll let you be that person...
And you are aware of the invalid who was 38 years an invalid, and Jesus healed him.......John 5:8?
Did you ever wonder why he didnt leave him as he found him?


@ Jeff, we can all draw lessons from the guy you picked up, even when we weren't there. He's a great picture of the birds and lilies of the field Jesus spoke of. What a faith walk! Some of the most Godly people I have ever met were among the poorest in my trips to Brazil. By existing in dependence to get to every next day, they were also among the very most Blessed.


God's riches in glory even reach to Brazil.
Amazing how he does it.
Glory to God and God bless their faith.



K

............

 

[Drew]

Except that, for now and until we are resurrected with our imperishable bodies, there is sickness and poverty.

It's hard when theological theory smacks up against a wall of indisputable facts.

True, but I believe that even the "theory" is with you on this one.

As per a number of posts I have made, we are promised that we only realize our co-inheritance with Jesus at some time in the future. Jesus is different from us in this respect - He is the first-fruits, we follow later.

There is no "theological theory", that stands up to Biblical scrutiny, that supports the "prosperity" gospel message.

 

[Vic C.]

I agree Drew. When I prosper, what I gain is, increased faith, knowledge and patient endurance. They are all blessings from God. But only God chooses who He shall heal... or not heal. That is the prerogative will of God. It's not our place to say someone lacks in faith or spirit if they succumb to an illness or ailment. I personally knew three persons of great faith who have died of cancer in the last two years.. and a fourth clinging to his life.

Paul surely understood this. When nagged with that thorn in the flesh and begged the Lord to take it away, the Lord's response was:

My grace is sufficient for you: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. (excerpt from 2 Cor. 12:9)

Paul's response was:

Therefore, for Christ's sake, I take pleasure in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in distresses: for when I am weak, then I am strong. (2 Cor. 12:10)

Reba,

>Proverbs 26:4
>Luke 6:37

God loves you.

be blessed,

Really?

Mat. 5:22

1 Cor. 15:12-13

2 Tim. 3:16


God loves you too and I am thrilled that He has healed you.

But your comments to Reba, Mike and others in this thread are uncharacteristic of a Christian and come across as a bit boastful.

James has a mirror for those kind of behaviors.

This thread is basically turning out to be you against a whole group of members giving you their best Biblical support against your teachings. Therefore I must stop the bleeding and close this thread. This decision is not up for debate.