The role of women in the church

[BJGrolle]

Pardon me - this is my first topic and it might be somewhat controversial. But something happened to me recently that has put this issue at the forefront of my mind.

What do you feel that the role of women should be in the church?

Do you feel that women should be allowed to be pastors?

Do you feel that women should be allowed to teach in the church?

I recently had an occasion to challenge the LCMS position on this issue. I posted about it on my blog. Someone left a comment, using 1 Timothy 2:11-14 and 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 as justification for the LCMS position. I've also poked around a bit and found other websites that use these same 2 verses as justification for not allowing women to serve in the church.

This disturbs me greatly, for various reasons, which I'll be glad to talk about more after I hear your views.

 

[Aslan]

Pardon me - this is my first topic and it might be somewhat controversial. But something happened to me recently that has put this issue at the forefront of my mind.

What do you feel that the role of women should be in the church?

Do you feel that women should be allowed to be pastors?

Do you feel that women should be allowed to teach in the church?

I recently had an occasion to challenge the LCMS position on this issue. I posted about it on my blog. Someone left a comment, using 1 Timothy 2:11-14 and 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 as justification for the LCMS position. I've also poked around a bit and found other websites that use these same 2 verses as justification for not allowing women to serve in the church.

This disturbs me greatly, for various reasons, which I'll be glad to talk about more after I hear your views.

First, women have played and will play a vital role in the God’s plan. He chose a woman to give birth to the savior of the world; he first told a woman that he was the Messiah. Two women (my wife and mother in law) played a vital role in bringing me to Christ.

The Bible teaches that men and women have specific roles based on their gender. Men need to be the spiritual leader in the home for example, this does not happen many times and women assume the role and do a good job, but it is Gods plan for the man to have that role as well as many others found in the Bible. However, the roles of men and women complement each other.

As far as these passages, 1 Tim 11-14, I wonder about the translation. It is clear to me that Adam was deceived as well. He was there and watched the whole thing go down and said nothing. This translation is from the Amplified Bible:

11Let a woman learn in quietness, in entire submissiveness. 12I allow no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to remain in quietness and keep silence [in religious assemblies]. 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve; 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but [the] woman who was deceived and deluded and fell into transgression.

I think this jives with Genesis better, Adam was not deceived, Eve was, Adam let Eve eat the forbidden fruit to see what would happen, and then he ate thinking no consequences happened because she ate. So they both sinned. Because of that sin God gave the consequences, one of those for a woman is that men will be the leaders of the home. The “keeping quiet in assemblies†maintains the authority of the man. It shows respect not to contradict the leader in a public setting. This says nothing about at home or in private. The same holds true for 1 Cor 14:34-35.

These are my initial thoughts, subject to change.

 

[Quath]

The Bible is very repressive towards women. Modern Christianity tends to try to look past these passages, but they are there and show the sexism of the Bible.

It starts off with Eve's curse making women submit to their husbands even though they committed the same crime. They both ate the forbidden fruit, yet Eve get's Adam's punishments and more.

The New Testament basically tells women to be quite in church and let the men explain everything at home. It says that man is like Jesus but woman is like man. So men are closer to God.

Women are treated horribly in the Old Testament by the laws of God. For example, nonvirgin women are killed if they marry while nonvirgin men are not. A raped virgin woman must marry her rapist. There does not seem to be a punishment if the women were a slave. However, if the woman was an engaged slave, the man must sacrifice an animal.

A menstrating woman defiles everything she touches. A woman is twice as dirty if she gives birth to a girl than if she gives borth to a boy. A man is worth 50 shekels and a woman is worth 30.

A woman can't make a vow unless her husband allows it.

A man may force a woman on the battlefield to be his wife.

God detests women that wear men's colthing.

If a wife accidentally touches another man's genitals while saving her husband from a fight, she has to get her hand cut off. There is no law like this for men.

Women are treated horrible in the Bible. There are a few cases they are treated nice, but it is kind of rare. The Bible was one of the biggest hurdles that women had to overcome to be able to gain the right to vote.

Quath

 

[joyinhim]

Thank you Quath, I never got into Moses laws, you sure enlightened me.

We have so many laws that conflict with each other in OT and NT. We need a great discernment making decisions.

 

[BJGrolle]

When I had those 2 verses thrown in my face, I was greatly disturbed. I don't feel I should be relegated to take a back seat in the church because of my sex. (Neither does my husband. :smt049 )

I believe that the Bible is the Word of God, I didn't want to be doing anything contrary to His Word. So, if I'm to remain silent, according to Paul's writings, that means I have no business posting in this forum about Christianity, or elsewhere on the Internet, or teaching Bible study at church (a recent new venture of mine).

I was almost certain that the passages were being taken out of context. I suspected that one also has to take into account the culture of the times to put the passages into perspective.

I was able to find some great study resources and commentary that greatly helped me. Here's an interesting little gem about 1 Corinthians 14:34-35:

Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

This was a Jewish ordinance; women were not permitted to teach in the assemblies, or even to ask questions. The rabbins taught that “a woman should know nothing but the use of her distaff.†And the sayings of Rabbi Eliezer, as delivered, Bammidbar Rabba, sec. 9, fol. 204, are both worthy of remark and of execration; they are these: éùøôå ãáøé úåøä åàì éîñøå ìðùéí yisrephu dibrey torah veal yimsaru lenashim, “Let the words of the law be burned, rather than that they should be delivered to women.†This was their condition till the time of the Gospel, when, according to the prediction of Joel, the Spirit of God was to be poured out on the women as well as the men, that they might prophesy, i.e. teach. And that they did prophesy or teach is evident from what the apostle says, 1Co_11:5, where he lays down rules to regulate this part of their conduct while ministering in the church.

But does not what the apostle says here contradict that statement, and show that the words in chap. 11 should be understood in another sense? For, here it is expressly said that they should keep silence in the church; for it was not permitted to a woman to speak. Both places seem perfectly consistent. It is evident from the context that the apostle refers here to asking questions, and what we call dictating in the assemblies. It was permitted to any man to ask questions, to object, altercate, attempt to refute, etc., in the synagogue; but this liberty was not allowed to any woman. St. Paul confirms this in reference also to the Christian Church; he orders them to keep silence; and, if they wished to learn any thing, let them inquire of their husbands at home; because it was perfectly indecorous for women to be contending with men in public assemblies, on points of doctrine, cases of conscience, etc. But this by no means intimated that when a woman received any particular influence from God to enable her to teach, that she was not to obey that influence; on the contrary, she was to obey it, and the apostle lays down directions in chap. 11 for regulating her personal appearance when thus employed. All that the apostle opposes here is their questioning, finding fault, disputing, etc., in the Christian Church, as the Jewish men were permitted to do in their synagogues; together with the attempts to usurp any authority over the man, by setting up their judgment in opposition to them; for the apostle has in view, especially, acts of disobedience, arrogance, etc., of which no woman would be guilty who was under the influence of the Spirit of God.

But - to be under obedience, as also saith the law - This is a reference to Gen_3:16 : Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. From this it is evident that it was the disorderly and disobedient that the apostle had in view; and not any of those on whom God had poured out his Spirit.

1 Corinthians 14:26-40 make it clear that the subject of Paul's attention was speaking in tongues and prophecy, not whether women could speak at all.

Also, an examination of Paul's other writings indicates that women did speak in church, preach, teach, whatever was called for at the time. Paul is even happy about this. For example, Romans 16:1-4 and Philippians 4:2-3. The God's Word version even refers to Phoebe as a deacon of the church, despite some of Paul's writings which refer to deacons as being only men.

The contradictions can be confusing.

It upsets me though that some people will take one passage, one sentence, and use that as justification for not allowing women to serve in the church. They will conveniently ignore the passages that support women taking an active role in ministry. They conveniently ignore that certain passages contain distinct cultural references that do not apply in the present.

(Yes, God was pretty harsh on women in the OT - He was pissed off for a long time about that apple, hmmm? :wink: )

 

[kwag_myers]

Galatians 3:28 Comments, anyone...?

 

[D46]

A lot of men-Christian and otherwise, like to pull verses to show their authority over the woman as they do citing the following...

Ephesians 5:22-24 (KJV) Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

However, they fail to read one verse below this...

Ephesians 5:25 (KJV) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

As for Galatians 3:28, here's what Burkitt's Commentary says...

Ga 3:28
As if the apostle had said, "Now, since the coming of Christ, there is no difference of discrimination between one nation and another, no regard to any national privilege, either of Jew or Gentile, no distinction of conditions, either bond or free; or of sexes, either male or female; but circumcised or uncircumcised, we are all one as good as another, in respect of outward privileges, or external advantages; but being sincere believers, we are all equally accepted of God in Christ."
Learn hence, that no external privilege or prerogative whatsoever, without faith in Christ, is any whit available to salvation; none are debarred from Christ, nor more nor better accepted with him for any of these things: Both the circumcised and uncircumcised are his, if believing in Christ.

BJGrolle, it may behoove you to come out of the Lutheran Church.

 

[Bubba]

Brenda, there is a article at: http://www.godswordtowomen.org/studies/ ... reato2.htm

It may be helpful to you. Beza

 

[BJGrolle]

BJGrolle, it may behoove you to come out of the Lutheran Church.

That may be an option someday, but not strictly because of this issue.

Here are a couple of paragraphs from the commentary on BibleGateway:

The new vertical relationship with God results in a new horizontal relationship with one another. All racial, economic and gender barriers and all other inequalities are removed in Christ. The equality and unity of all in Christ are not an addition, a tangent or an optional application of the gospel. They are part of the essence of the gospel.

When men exclude women from significant participation in the life and ministry of the church, they negate the essence of the gospel. Some will argue that the equality Paul defends here is only in the "spiritual" sphere: equality before God. But Paul's argument responds to a social crisis in the church: Gentiles were being forced to become Jews to be fully accepted by Jewish Christians. Paul's argument is that Gentiles do not have to become Jews to participate fully in the life of the church. Neither do blacks have to become white or females become male for full participation in the life and ministry of the church.

Beza, YES!

I'm going to forward that link in an email to the Rev. Bergen, head of the Ohio District of the LCMS. He claimed that whenever the Bible speaks of pastoral care, it is referring to men. That is clearly not true.

If the LCMS was a public employer, the government would be after them for discriminating against women.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. What do you feel that the role of women should be in the church?
2. Do you feel that women should be allowed to be pastors?
3. Do you feel that women should be allowed to teach in the church?

1. Members
2. No
3. No

See how easy that was - Life can be so simple.

1 Tim 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

When Eve got to dicussing doctrinal things she got messed up - God never called women to be theologians.

Now, let's stir it up a bit - if I ever caught my wife on forums discussing doctrinal issues it would stop immediately - she wouldn't and I am thankful for that but if she did it would start having a negative affect on the home.

God called men to teach and take positions of authority in the home, the church, and civil government. Men are to take the beating not the women - God seeks to protect the women from such abuse. God thinks more highly of women then some of you do.

When I see the likes of Joyce Meyers, Mrs. Copeland, etc. up "preaching" (gag me with a spoon) and "teaching" then two things come to mind:

1. Confusion and chaos.
2. Men who listen and follow these women have the backbone of a jelly fish and french fries for ribs!

Now - go ahead and tell me I'm against women and I treat my wife like a doormat - won't keep me awake enough to yawn.

The highest calling the women can have is to be keepers at home and to raise godly children who are prepared to be godly citizens under the headship of the head of the house. And women today who don't like that are rebellious and don't like the labor invloved in doing that so they turn their children over to the state and go out into the workplace when they don't really have to (I quailified myself here!). As soon as you reverse the roles then chaos exists - you get masculine, confused women and whimpy men who make for poor soldires of Jesus Christ!

Don't shake your fist and gnash yoru teeth at me - go complain to God about it.

Now - for your further edification -
What Would Happen if the Women Would Leave the Workplace?
http://av1611bible.com/familyroom.htm

Now - wasn't that fun?

 

[BJGrolle]

AVBunyan, I'm sorry that you have a closed mind.

I read the link you provided. Did you read any of the links provided before you posted?

I have a close personal relationship with God - that isn't just the province of men, in case you didn't know.

The Holy Spirit moved me to start a Christian blog; to seek out Christian forums like this one, where I could share the Word of God with others; learn the Word of God from others; minister to those in need, etc.

The Holy Spirit moved me to start teaching a Bible study class at our church last month, something that no one else would step forward to do after our pastor of 11 years left for another calling. I said, "Why do we need a pastor to have a Bible class?" (We had previously belonged to a LCMS church many years ago where the Bible class was taught by a couple of men in rotation, not pastors.)

When our former pastor taught Bible study class, we had about 4 to 6 people each Sunday. My Bible study class has been in session 4 times and our number last week was 10! That's the highest number we've had in the 2+ years my husband and I attended the Bible study class. The people are very happy. We have a dynamic group and we learn from each other. They're inspired and enthused.

Why should I not teach them - just because I'm a woman?

Why do you conveniently ignore the Bible passages that support women teaching and preaching?

Why are you threatened by women having a leadership role - whether it's in the church or in the workplace?

Why do you feel that women having authoritative positions makes a man less of a man?

Now, let's stir it up a bit - if I ever caught my wife on forums discussing doctrinal issues it would stop immediately - she wouldn't and I am thankful for that but if she did it would start having a negative affect on the home.

Why would this threaten you? Why would you be upset about it? I'm sure you wife is an intelligent woman with opinions and questions. Why shouldn't she have the freedom to express herself? Do you expect your wife to share your opinions in everything? That's hardly realistic.

As to that article you linked to: There isn't much there that I disagree with. I had to work before I got married and I despised it. I quit working shortly before I got married and I've never been sorry. My husband and 2 children take priority in my life, as it should be.

But, it doesn't take all day to keep a house clean and I prefer not to sit around the house and twiddle my thumbs or read the latest in romance novels (YUCK - I prefer something more challenging than that). I've been an eBay seller for 5 1/2 years now. Spending time online with Christian issues is a recent pursuit of mine that I find very satisfying.

When I did work outside the home many years ago, I did work with many housewives who didn't need the money (they'd brag about it) - they just needed to get out of the house for a few hours a day. I can understand it, but I used to feel that it was a shame that they were taking a job away from someone who might actually have needed the money. In the meantime, volunteer organizations go begging for help and they can't get it. Society places too much emphasis on money as a measure of a person's worth and people buy into that illusion.

But I digress...

I'd like an answer to my questions, if it's not too much trouble for you.

 

[guibox]

AV,

I can respect your interpretation of the bible but I do question your logic about not having your wife posting on forums.

I don't recall this being a church as Paul's views on both preaching and teaching dealt with the synagogue and not overall day to day dealings. Especially as has been pointed out that we see women in the bible doing just that.

Not only is that harsh but it takes the 'letter of the law' to extremism.
So do you even allow your wife to witness to people or do you step in and stop it? Do you follow her around and step in like some Amish control freak when you see her opening her mouth to share God's word with someone?

You are stopping her from letting God use her talents and testimony because it doesn't fit your biblical interpretation?

That moves from 'following God's word' to 'being a good Pharisee'

 

[Quath]

I don't think you should take the Bible literally. If you do, you have to believe in an Earth that does not move; a God who kills a child because the parent sinned; and that slavery is acceptable. Maybe a better way to look at the Bible is writings by people about God and their beliefs that reflected their values and prejudices at the time.

So the Old Testament is very sexist and regulates rules for the subjection of women. However, if you look at it as people pushing their own personal beliefs, then you can believe in a God that does not promote the killing of nonvirgin brides or in sexist rules.

Paul pushes his beliefs in the Bible in his support for slavery and keeping women quiet. If that is just his view and not Jesus's or God's view, then you can believe in a God that sees all people as equally special.

Here is a logical way to look at it.

1. God does not punish or stop people from writing incorrect things about Him (Quram, Book of Mormon, etc.).
2. People voted on which books would make the Bible and God did not say it was wrong or right.
3. Protestants changed the books of the Bible and God did not comment on this either.

Thereore, it seems that the Bible can say wrong things and God will not correct them. Therefore, the sexism in the Bible could be wrong.

I don't know if that helps you reconcile your feelings with what the Bible says.

Qath

 

[BJGrolle]

Maybe a better way to look at the Bible is writings by people about God and their beliefs that reflected their values and prejudices at the time.

It's my understanding that is one of the major differences between the LCMS and the ELCA. People in the LCMS have been taught that the ELCA says that the Bible isn't the Word of God. If you go to the ELCA website though, you'll find that isn't true.

My husband and I have been discussing this issue a lot recently. I asked him just this weekend how we could be sure that Paul's letters are really the inspired Word of God? He explained it like this (my paraphrasing):

God inspired Paul to write those things, including all the sexist parts, because the most important thing was to spread Christianity throughout the world. Paul would have a much better chance of doing so, if he emphasized the current cultural traditions of the times, rather than calling for a massive overhaul of the treatment of women. If he'd tried to do both, many people would have rejected Christianity outright.

It makes sense to me. I still don't like the flavor of some of Paul's writings, but I can understand that Christianity had to be the bigger issue, not equal rights for women.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. So do you even allow your wife to witness to people or do you step in and stop it?
2. Do you follow her around and step in like some Amish control freak when you see her opening her mouth to share God's word with someone?
3. You are stopping her from letting God use her talents and testimony because it doesn't fit your biblical interpretation?

That moves from 'following God's word' to 'being a good Pharisee'

1. Of course not - we are talking about teaching and preaching to men in the church here - not witnessing. You are being rediculous.

2. See #1

3. See #1

 

[BJGrolle]

Has everyone noticed that AVBunyan answered guibox's questions but not mine?

I believe that mine are just as valid. Why don't you answer my questions AVBunyan?

 

[BJGrolle]

Maybe he won't answer my questions for the same reason he won't let his wife speak.

He has the mistaken view that if his wife doesn't completely agree with everything he says, does, or thinks, that she's somehow usurping his authority over her.

This is a ridiculous extremely old-fashioned idea.

Today's man is confident enough in his relationship with the women in his life to know that differences of opinion are simply that: differences of opinion. It doesn't mean a lack of respect, or loyalty, or love.

 

[BJGrolle]

I've sent an email to Reverend Bergen, as promised. Here is an abbreviated version (omitting some of the links and passages already mentioned here):

To: President: Rev. Ronald L. Bergen
District Office:
P.O. Box 38277
(6451 Columbia Road-for UPS/Fedex only)
Olmsted Falls, OH 44138-0277
Phone: 440-235-2297

Dear Rev. Ronald L. Bergen,

Please note that copies of this letter have gone out to various news media who I think would be interested in this issue. It's an important issue and I'd prefer that it not be ignored.

I'm so glad that I had the opportunity to meet you during the call meeting last month at St. John Lutheran Church in Elyria.

You may remember that we spoke briefly after the meeting. I asked you: "Where does it say in the Bible that women cannot be ordained as pastors?" You responded: "It doesn't. We choose not to ordain women as pastors because we feel that whenever the Bible is talking about pastoral care, that they're referring to men."

Well, that bothered me, for a number of reasons. One that I recall mentioning to you was the fact that some of the Bible's passages clearly reflect the culture of the time they were written in. As a learned pastor, you know that to interpret any passage of the Bible properly, one MUST take into account the culture of the times, the full content of the passages surrounding the passage in question, and compare passages on the same theme or topic to get the full flavor of the intent.

I recall that you said you're going to be retiring in less than a year. Congratulations on a long and distinguished career in the ministry!

Now you have a wonderful opportunity to create a legacy of sorts. I urge you to promote change within the LCMS. I urge you to consider the passages and related commentaries below. I urge you to follow the links which are further down in this email, so you can see what other people have to say about this issue. I urge you, as an educated forward-thinking man who commands respect within the LCMS, to advocate that women be allowed full privileges for preaching and teaching in the LCMS, the same as given to any man currently preaching and teaching within the LCMS. The Bible supports women taking a full and active role in Christian ministry.

It is an irony that private employers are prohibited from discriminating against women in matters of employment, while the LCMS remains outside the scope of inquiry, and continues to discriminate against women regarding their potential for service within the church. As we discussed last month, some churches won't even allow women to be ushers! Women are routinely relegated to the kitchen to cook, or the back room to count the money at the end of the service. Women are routinely allowed to teach Sunday school, as long as it's children they're teaching and not adults. But they are seldom allowed to be on the front lines, visible to all.

In Lorain County, many LCMS churches are failing - membership is dwindling rapidly - most congregations are aging with no new younger membership coming in to replace them. Could it be that many younger people don't want to associate with a church that won't allow women to fully participate?

I believe that the best man or woman should always get the job. God has given each of us unique gifts. Please, let everyone use their gifts in accordance with their God-given abilities. You can be the catalyst to see that this takes place! Search your heart and your mind, and ask God for his guidance in this critical issue. I know that I have, and it was He who inspired me to write this letter to you.

Let's bring the LCMS into the 21st century!

(Omitted text and links which are just a repeat of what you've already read here.)

Sincerely,

Brenda J. Grolle

I encourage everyone who agrees that the LCMS is wrong in their position of discriminating against women in the church to send an email or call to express your views.

Here is a page of the different LCMS districts:

http://www.lcmsdistricts.org/

Just a note: when I clicked on the Ohio District, the email address for Rev. Bergen on that page is different from the one I found on the actual Ohio District website - I used the one on the Ohio District website.

I sent the email to news media as - um - protection, if you get my meaning.

Don't think this is in vain either. Your calls and emails can and may very well make the difference. I can prove it! Read on:

Earlier this spring, Ohio had enacted a ridiculous law that would have prevented average ordinary people from continuing to list their items for auction on eBay. I got involved. I did research, gathered facts, made phone calls, sent emails, etc. Within 24 hours, a news reporter interviewed me by phone, politicians were calling my house (after being contacted by the media :wink: ), and my name and eBay appeared in print newspapers and online news articles all over the Internet. We got the law changed and protected the rights of all Ohioans to continue selling their stuff on eBay.

The CAT - Commercial Activity Tax in Ohio. The original proposal targeted any self-employed businessperson making as little as $40,000 a year and imposed a mandatory deposit regardless of income, filings, etc. After I got involved, the law was changed. The income requirements were raised substantially, and the mandatory deposit and filing became mandatory only if one had to actually pay the CAT. No media circus this time - all I did was mention my name and remind them of eBay. The politicians had no trouble at all in listening to my views and making changes to make the law fairer.

Twice already, I have had a major impact on issues that affected Ohioans. I'm sure you'll agree that this issue is even bigger than that. It's national, even international!

With your help, we can make a difference! :smt100

BTW, before I sent that email, I called my husband at work to - well - ask his permission. He thought it was odd that I felt I needed to ask his permission. I told him I was concerned about the possibility of being kicked out of church over it. I feel it would hurt him more than me. He said, "Why? Are they going to kick you out of church for stating your opinion?" :smt054

Please, make those phone calls and send those emails.

 

[Bubba]

Is it possible that over the years of Church history, some verses were translated with a male bias? Phoebe, a Christian woman whom we find in Romans 16:1 spoken of as any common "servant" attached to a church body, yet, may have been someone gifted by the Holy Spirit to preach the gospel, if we read what the apostle originally said in the Greek. "Diaconon" can (from what I have read) be translated "deacon" or preacher of the word. Why is it simply translated "servant" in most translations of the Scripture? Especially in light of the same Greek word used to designate her was applied to all the apostles and Jesus; " Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister (diaconon) of the circumcision" (Rom. 15:8). "Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers (diaconoi) by whom ye believed" (1 Cor. 3:5). "Our sufficiency is of God; who also hath made us able ministers (diaconous) of the new testament" (2 Cor. 3:6). "In all things approving ourselves as the ministers (diaconoi) of God" (6:4).
"The Lord gave the word, and great was the company of those that published it" (Ps. 68:11). In the original Hebrew it is, "Great was the company of women publishers, or women evangelists." Why is the female aspect left out in modern translations? And what is the implications if indeed these verses have been mistranslated because of a "male bias"?
Beza

 

[AVBunyan]

Has everyone noticed that AVBunyan answered guibox's questions but not mine?

I believe that mine are just as valid. Why don't you answer my questions AVBunyan?

I answered your first set - that is all I care to answer - I will not get into a dicsussion or debate with you over this issue.

Think what you may about why you think I choose not to answer you - if you think because I can't or afraid to then think what you may. Go discuss it with your pastor or husband.