The role of women in the church

[BJGrolle]

Is it possible that over the years of Church history, some verses were translated with a male bias? Phoebe, a Christian woman whom we find in Romans 16:1 spoken of as any common "servant" attached to a church body, yet, may have been someone gifted by the Holy Spirit to preach the gospel, if we read what the apostle originally said in the Greek. "Diaconon" can (from what I have read) be translated "deacon" or preacher of the word. Why is it simply translated "servant" in most translations of the Scripture? Especially in light of the same Greek word used to designate her was applied to all the apostles and Jesus; " Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister (diaconon) of the circumcision" (Rom. 15:8). "Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers (diaconoi) by whom ye believed" (1 Cor. 3:5). "Our sufficiency is of God; who also hath made us able ministers (diaconous) of the new testament" (2 Cor. 3:6). "In all things approving ourselves as the ministers (diaconoi) of God" (6:4).
"The Lord gave the word, and great was the company of those that published it" (Ps. 68:11). In the original Hebrew it is, "Great was the company of women publishers, or women evangelists." Why is the female aspect left out in modern translations? And what is the implications if indeed these verses have been mistranslated because of a "male bias"?
Beza

Those are scary questions. :smt102 But they need to be asked.

 

[BJGrolle]

Has everyone noticed that AVBunyan answered guibox's questions but not mine?

I believe that mine are just as valid. Why don't you answer my questions AVBunyan?

I answered your first set - that is all I care to answer - I will not get into a dicsussion or debate with you over this issue.

Think what you may about why you think I choose not to answer you - if you think because I can't or afraid to then think what you may. Go discuss it with your pastor or husband.

I can respect your decision to not want to discuss the matter further with me. However, do you realize or care how pathetic your last comment makes you look?

Go discuss it with your pastor or husband.

Jesus treated women better than you do.

If you have a problem with me posting here, don't read my posts. Now, wasn't that simple?

 

[AVBunyan]

1. However, do you realize or care how pathetic your last comment makes you look?

2. Jesus treated women better than you do.

1. :roll:

2. My how judging you are now - you don't know how I treat women :roll:

 

[BJGrolle]

This is true. I only know what I've seen you post here today.

I stopped by your website and took a brief look around, including your forum. This paragraph is from your forum guidelines:

The web is full of “debate and discussion forums†with many being places for folks to seek to persuade others of their viewpoints - which in itself is not a bad thing. But eventually these “chats†turned into full-blown debates and often attitudes and self cancel out any edification that could have taken place. I wanted this sited to be different.

Your first post to me in this forum was just full of attitude. You could have answered my questions without it.

You first brought your wife into the discussion, not me. Then you insulted all men who don't believe as you do, calling them wimpy. Then you proceeded to describe what a woman's place was supposed to be in this world. And you knew full well that your attitude wouldn't sit well, by saying this:

Don't shake your fist and gnash yoru teeth at me - go complain to God about it.

Your attitude contributed to the loss of any self-edification that might have taken place here between us, if I may be so bold as to throw your words back at you.

Why are you even here, since you don't like debate and discussion forums? Particularly, what are you doing in an Apologetics forum, which are often known for intense debate? :roll:

Since you believe that only the 1611 KJV is the Word of God and that all other modern versions are of the devil (from your website), then let's use that version for debate:

Rom 16:1 I commend vnto you Phebe our sister, which is a seruant of the Church which is at Cenchrea:
Rom 16:2 That ye receiue her in the Lord as becommeth Saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoeuer businesse she hath need of you: for she hath beene a succourer of many, and of my selfe also.
Rom 16:3 Greete Priscilla and Aquila, my helpers in Christ Iesus:
Rom 16:4 (Who haue for my life laid downe their owne neckes: vnto whome not onely I giue thankes, but also all the Churches of the Gentiles.)
Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the Church that is in their house. Salute my welbeloued Epenetus, who is the first fruits of Achaia vnto Christ.
Rom 16:6 Greete Marie, who bestowed much labour on vs.

Phi 4:2 I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntiche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.
Phi 4:3 And I entreat thee also, true yokefellow, helpe those women which laboured with me in the Gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellow labourers, whose names are in the booke of life.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Iewe, nor Greeke, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Iesus.
Gal 3:29 And if yee be Christs, then are ye Abrahams seed, and heires according to the promise.

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to passe afterward, that I will powre out my Spirit vpon all flesh, and your sonnes and your daughters shall prophecie, your old men shall dreame dreames, your yong men shall see visions.
Joe 2:29 And also vpon the seruants, and vpon the handmaids in those dayes will I powre out my Spirit.

Mat 27:55 And many women were there (beholding afarre off) which followed Iesus from Galilee, ministring vnto him.

Mat 28:1 In the ende of the Sabbath, as it began to dawne towards the first day of the weeke, came Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre.
Mat 28:2 And behold, there was a great earthquake, for the Angel of the Lord descended from heauen, and came and rolled backe the stone from the doore, and sate vpon it.
Mat 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snowe.
Mat 28:4 And for feare of him, the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
Mat 28:5 And the Angel answered, and said vnto the women, Feare not ye: for I know that ye seeke Iesus, which was crucified.
Mat 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as hee said: Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
Mat 28:7 And goe quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead. And behold, hee goeth before you into Galilee, there shall ye see him: loe, I haue told you.
Mat 28:8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre, with feare and great ioy, and did run to bring his disciples word.
Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Iesus met them, saying, All haile. And they came, and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
Mat 28:10 Then said Iesus vnto them, Be not afraid: Goe tell my brethren that they goe into Galilee, and there shall they see me.

Women were the first to be told by both an Angel of the Lord and by Jesus the risen Lord himself to tell the other disciples of his resurrection. I believe that qualifies as spreading the Gospel, witnessing to others, and taking a leadership role in Christ's ministry. If women are not to do these things, then why were they commanded to do so by the highest authority?

Luk 8:1 And it came to passe afterward, that he went throughout euery citie and village preaching, and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdome of God: and the twelue were with him,
Luk 8:2 And certaine women which had bene healed of euill spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene out of whom went seuen deuils,
Luk 8:3 And Ioanna the wife of Chuza, Herods steward, and Susanna, and many others which ministred vnto him of their substance.

More examples of women joining Christ in his ministry.

Luk 24:22 Yea, and certaine women also of our company made vs astonished, which were early at the Sepulchre:
Luk 24:23 And when they found not his bodie, they came, saying, that they had also seene a vision of Angels, which saide that he was aliue.
Luk 24:24 And certaine of them which were with vs, went to the Sepulchre, and found it euen so as the women had said, but him they saw not.
Luk 24:25 Then hee saide vnto them, O fooles, and slow of heart to beleeue all that the Prophets haue spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to haue suffered these things, and to enter into his glorie?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses, and all the Prophets, hee expounded vnto them in all the Scriptures, the things concerning himselfe.
Luk 24:28 And they drew nigh vnto the village, whither they went, and hee made as though hee would haue gone further.
Luk 24:29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with vs, for it is towards euening, and the day is farre spent: And he went in, to tarrie with them.
Luk 24:30 And it came to passe, as hee sate at meate with them, hee tooke bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gaue to them.
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him, and he vanished out of their sight.
Luk 24:32 And they said one vnto another, Did not our heart burne within vs, while hee talked with vs by the way, and while hee opened to vs the Scriptures?
Luk 24:33 And they rose vp the same houre, and returned to Hierusalem, and found the eleuen gathered together, and them that were with them,
Luk 24:34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
Luk 24:35 And they told what things were done in the way, & how he was knowen of them in breaking of bread.
Luk 24:36 And as they thus spake, Iesus himselfe stood in the midst of them, and sayeth vnto them, Peace bee vnto you.
Luk 24:37 But they were terrified, and afrighted, and supposed that they had seene a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said vnto them, Why are yee troubled, and why doe thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 Beholde my hands and my feete, that it is I my selfe: handle me, and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me haue.
Luk 24:40 And when hee had thus spoken, hee shewed them his handes and his feete.
Luk 24:41 And while they yet beleeued not for ioy, and wondered, hee saide vnto them, Haue ye here any meat?
Luk 24:42 And they gaue him a piece of a broyled fish, and of an hony combe.
Luk 24:43 And he tooke it, and did eate before them.
Luk 24:44 And hee said vnto them, These are the words which I spake vnto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the Law of Moses, & in the Prophets, and in the Psalmes concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their vnderstanding, that they might vnderstand the Scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said vnto them, Thus it is written, & thus it behoued Christ to suffer, & to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sinnes should be preached in his Name, among all nations, beginning at Hierusalem.

Jesus was angry with the men for not believing the women.

Act 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Iesus, and with his brethen.

This took place after Jesus ascended into heaven.

1Pe 3:1 Likewise, ye wiues, be in subiection to your owne husbands, that if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be wonne by the conuersation of the wiues:
1Pe 3:2 While they beholde your chaste conuersation coupled with feare:
1Pe 3:3 Whose adorning, let it not bee that outward adorning, of plaiting the haire, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparell.
1Pe 3:4 But let it bee the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, euen the ornament of a meeke and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
1Pe 3:5 For after this manner in the olde time, the holy women also who trusted in God adorned themselues, beeing in subiection vnto their owne husbands.
1Pe 3:6 Euen as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him Lord, whose daughters ye are as long as ye doe well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
1Pe 3:7 Likewise ye husbands, dwel with them according to knowledge, giuing honour vnto the wife as vnto the weaker vessel, and as being heires together of the grace of life, that your prayers be not hindered.
1Pe 3:8 Finally be ye all of one minde, hauing compassion one of another, loue as brethren, be pitifull, be courteous,
1Pe 3:9 Not rendring euill for euill, or railing for railing: but contrarywise blessing, knowing that yee are thereunto called, that ye should inherite a blessing.

Some related commentary from Barnes:

That, if any obey not the word - The word of God; the gospel. That is, if any wives have husbands who are not true Christians. This would be likely to occur when the gospel was first preached, as it does now, by the fact that wives might be converted, though their husbands were not. It cannot be inferred from this, that after they themselves had become Christians they had married unbelieving husbands. The term “word†here refers particularly to the gospel as preached; and the idea is, that if they were regardless of that gospel when preached - if they would not attend on preaching, or if they were unaffected by it, or if they openly rejected it, there might be hope still that they would be converted by the Christian influence of a wife at home. In such cases, a duty of special importance devolves on the wife.

 

[Quath]

It's my understanding that is one of the major differences between the LCMS and the ELCA. People in the LCMS have been taught that the ELCA says that the Bible isn't the Word of God. If you go to the ELCA website though, you'll find that isn't true.

Interesting. I did not know that.

My husband and I have been discussing this issue a lot recently. I asked him just this weekend how we could be sure that Paul's letters are really the inspired Word of God? He explained it like this (my paraphrasing):

God inspired Paul to write those things, including all the sexist parts, because the most important thing was to spread Christianity throughout the world. Paul would have a much better chance of doing so, if he emphasized the current cultural traditions of the times, rather than calling for a massive overhaul of the treatment of women. If he'd tried to do both, many people would have rejected Christianity outright.

It could be that Paul was just reflecting the views of women and slavery of the Old Testament. If the OT view had been nicer, then maybe Paul's views would have been nicer as well.

It makes sense to me. I still don't like the flavor of some of Paul's writings, but I can understand that Christianity had to be the bigger issue, not equal rights for women.

That seems to suggest that God will do evil for long term good. Or the ends justify the means. Since God was messing with this world, He could have just commanded that slavery and sexism were not something a Christian should embrace. After all adultry was and is popular, but God didn't allow that to gain more followers.

Even if that had been God's plan, then He should have issued a newer Bible that is not as sexist once the sexist views had started to leave society. Historically, the Bible has been the justification for holding back women from gaining equal rights with men.

Quath

 

[BJGrolle]

Quath, it is confusing.

I'm searching for information right now to prepare for this Sunday's Bible study - the topic of which has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion, let me assure you.

So how much of a coincidence is it that I just happened to run across this passage:

Rom 5:14 Yet, death ruled from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin in the same way Adam did when he disobeyed. Adam is an image of the one who would come.

Note the contrast with the other passage that is often used as justification:

1Ti 2:11 A woman must learn in silence, in keeping with her position.
1Ti 2:12 I don't allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. Instead, she should be quiet.
1Ti 2:13 After all, Adam was formed first, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 Besides that, Adam was not deceived. It was the woman who was deceived and sinned.

So, why does Paul say in his letter to the Romans that Adam also sinned, yet in his letter to Timothy he says that Adam didn't sin and lays all the blame on Eve? This is a glaring contradiction!

A couple of study guides that I have speculate that Paul didn't write 1 Timothy, but rather that his secretary or one of his followers might have. One study guide says that Paul would never have made childbirth the means of a woman's salvation, as this verse states:

1Ti 2:15 However, she and all women will be saved through the birth of the child, if they lead respectable lives in faith, love, and holiness.

This contradicts verses 5 and 6:

1Ti 2:5 There is one God. There is also one mediator between God and humans-a human, Christ Jesus.
1Ti 2:6 He sacrificed himself for all people to free them from their sins. This message is valid for every era.

I haven't studied Paul's writings in depth, but it does seem that 1 Timothy is much more simplistic in style than Paul's other writings. His writings are usually more eloquent than that. Perhaps the scholars are right and someone else wrote 1 Timothy.

But regardless of whether both writings are correctly attributed to Paul or not, it begs the question of how 1 Timothy 2:11-14 can be relied upon as a valid argument against women preaching and teaching in the church.

Either Paul couldn't make up his own mind, God couldn't make up His own mind (no offense to the Lord intended), or the person who wrote 1 Timothy was not truly writing with the influence of the Holy Spirit (maybe didn't have a strong spiritual connection to understand what points the Holy Spirit was trying to get across???).

There is not enough consistency to prove to my satisfaction that women are not supposed to preach or teach in the church. There is much more evidence in the Bible to support the opposite position IMO.

Oh, I don't believe it's a coincidence that I ran across that passage this evening. I believe that God led me to it.

 

[D46]

BJGrolle-I have a question for you. I know very little about the Lutheran Church although I've discussed it somewhat with a neighbor on the other side of me as he and his wife attend a Lutheran church about a mile up the road. He has on many occassions talked to her while outside and I could hear, like a 12 year old. I thought that odd since they're both in their mid 70's and have been married over 50 years. Maybe that's just the way he is...don't know. Chances are is has nothiing to do with his church. The question is this-most churches I know of have a choir and in that choir are girls/women. They're not keeping silent in the church when they sing or when they stand up, whether by request or on their own, to give a testimony about...say an illness that God healed them of or prayers answered about something else. I don't personally care for the women preachers I've heard and would rather hear a man but, anything else- I just don't see the problem.

Does your church have a choir and if so, I'm sure they're girls and women in it. Perhaps Lutherans don't do much in the testimony area but, I would be curious as to what your pastor thinks on these matters. I have a video called, "Bad Girls of the Bible" that's very interesting in that it covers women like Jael who, as you may know, drove a tent peg through the head of Sisera-Judges 4th Chapter. Then we have Rahab the harlot that helped the men escape undetected by the King of jericho's men. She lied about where they went and ended up saving herself and her house- Joshua 2nd Chapter.Of course, Jezebel was the star of the show in that video. Bottom line is this, God uses who he will for whatever purpose be it male or whether it be female. We are one in his eyes. One doesn't need to walk ten paces behind the other to show respect.

 

[AVBunyan]

Summary

BJGrolle said:
“This paragraph is from your forum guidelines:

The web is full of “debate and discussion forums†with many being places for folks to seek to persuade others of their viewpoints - which in itself is not a bad thing. But eventually these “chats†turned into full-blown debates and often attitudes and self cancel out any edification that could have taken place. I wanted this sited to be different. “

Yes, at one time I had a full-blown forum –when the attitudes and debates got out of hand I shut it down, erased the posts, took it off the site, made some folks made, and only just recently opened it up again in case someone did have a question about the site but it will never again become a debate forum.

BJGrolle said:
â€ÂYour first post to me in this forum was just full of attitude. You could have answered my questions without it.â€Â

I have no defense here and an apology is being offered. I had an attitude this morning that was unbecoming of a grace believer. When I went on the forum to look for Jason’s posts I ran across two threads and my flesh got the best of me. This is one of the reasons that me and forums don’t get along. Oftentimes forums reveal my old nature and I’m ashamed of this.

BJGrolle said:
â€ÂYou first brought your wife into the discussion, not me.â€Â

I brought her in to show how far I go with my conviction on this.

BJGrolle said:
“Then you insulted all men who don't believe as you do, calling them wimpy.â€Â

I stand by the above statement. How about weak instead of “wimpy�

BJGrolle said:
“Then you proceeded to describe what a woman's place was supposed to be in this world.â€Â

Titus 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Titus 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

BJGrolle said:
“And you knew full well that your attitude wouldn't sit well, by saying this:
Don't shake your fist and gnash your teeth at me - go complain to God about it.â€Â

Yep.

BJGrolle said:
â€ÂYour attitude contributed to the loss of any self-edification that might have taken place here between us, if I may be so bold as to throw your words back at you.â€Â

Probably – but if I said it nice and sweet you probably would not change your view anyway – my opinion – you have yours – I have mine.

BJGrolle said:
â€ÂWhy are you even here, since you don't like debate and discussion forums?â€Â

Good question – not sure – little good seems to come from forums.

BJGrolle said:
â€ÂSince you believe that only the 1611 KJV is the Word of God and that all other modern versions are of the devil (from your website),â€Â

Yes, I believe all modern versions are from the pit of hell.

BJGrolle said:
“then let's use that version for debate:â€Â

This is where I stop. I will not debate this issue with you.

Let’s summarize:

1. My attitude – it was poor and for that I do apologize.
2. My view – won’t budge here:
I still believe the scriptures are clear…
Women should not teach men.
Women have absolutely no business in the pulpits preaching.
(The context of the above is primarily within the local church.)
Women should be keepers at home unless providential circumstances prevent.
Men who follow women preachers and teachers are either ignorant or just plain weak (instead of wimpy – is that sweeter?)

May God bless

 

[Imagican]

When I had those 2 verses thrown in my face, I was greatly disturbed. I don't feel I should be relegated to take a back seat in the church because of my sex. (Neither does my husband. )

Funny that you put it that way. I'm sure Eve probably felt the same way. The indication is that Adam and God had a relationship that Eve was NOT a part of. Jealousy over this is perhaps the main reason that she rebelled and then led her husband to do the same. NO, not my words, the words of the apostle Paul.

You have obviously bought into the idea that men and women are equal, (the same). You didn't have to, but you chose to. That's no ones fault but your own. Men and women are not, will not, nor have they EVER BEEN the same. Just because society in this country has taught you this lie, doesn't mean you have to believe it.

I am NOT saying that women deserve to be treated unfairly by any means, but they were certainly created for a purpose and all you need to do is read the Word to find out what that purpose IS. That's right, IS. Not was, but IS. I don't like the fact that I wasn't born 200 years ago, but not liking it doesn't change the FACT. I am here NOW and have to deal with it PERIOD.

Now, since you do live in Babylon of the 21st century, you certainly have the freedom and choice to feel and do as you please concerning your religion and worship practices. But trying to integrate your modern day feelings into a religion that ignores the Word means you would just have to change it to suit yourself and continue living for the world instead of taking a back seat to God. Sorry, but you can't lead Him either.

I know, I know, this is certainly NOT politically correct in this day and age, but it's pretty much the 'truth'.

I certainly don't believe that anyone in our time is able to offer anything more inspired than that offered by the apostles. There is certainly nothing wrong with women teaching children or other women, but the Paul says that it's unacceptable for women to lead men.

I know, I know, some women will read this and think that I'm dead wrong. But then there would be some gays that would read what I have to say about them being leaders in the church and feel the same way too.

Do you believe that YOUR will is what matters most, or the will of God? What do we know concerning this issue as far as God's will? Once again I refer you to what Paul taught us. If that's not good enough, then I would suggest that you do as Russell did and just write you a new Bible and leave this part out. Otherwise your kind of STUCK with what we've been taught.

Hey, and don't get mad at me, I'm just the messenger. I didn't create men and women, so their order and purpose have nothing to do with my choice. If my statements anger anyone, let me further suggest that you too have bowed to the wishes of man instead of the will of God. Most of the churches have already done this to a degree that is unimaginable, so why not let women and gays be pastors in them?

But, the 'true' Church, (body of Christ), would NEVER EVEN DREAM of allowing this. Sorry, but it's true.

 

[joyinhim]

Bj,

I don't believe it is Biblicla for women to be pastors.

But because we hardly have godly men pastors I will support them if they are true godly women.

it's so sad that we cannot find many godly spiritual leaders. :

 

[Solo]

I suspect that if silly women can be led astray and teach that some of the Bible, specifically portions of Paul's writings are wrong, then silly men can say that the portion of Paul's writings that are God's role for men can be abolished as well; such as husbands love your wives as Jesus loved the Church so much that he gave his life for it. I wonder what portions of scripture that will get thrown into the trash because it goes against the understanding of some men and some women. Let's all pick apart the Word of God and believe in what we desire, and not believe what we don't like. That will solve all of our problems. And if we can't get the Church leadership to change their understanding of the Scriptures, we will protest to whomever to make the changes that WE see fit. That is the Christian way, right?! Wrong.

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. 7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. 8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones. Proverbs 3:5-8

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. 2 Timothy 3:1-9

 

[Imagican]

Rom 5:14 Yet, death ruled from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin in the same way Adam did when he disobeyed. Adam is an image of the one who would come.

Note the contrast with the other passage that is often used as justification:

1Ti 2:11 A woman must learn in silence, in keeping with her position.
1Ti 2:12 I don't allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. Instead, she should be quiet.
1Ti 2:13 After all, Adam was formed first, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 Besides that, Adam was not deceived. It was the woman who was deceived and sinned.

Obviously the whole problem here is a matter of discernment or lack thereof. Adam was NOT deceived by the serpent. Adam followed Eve. I guess you are unable to understand this any better than she did.

Adam trusted Eve for she was given to him BY GOD. Eve on the other hand was told that to eat the fruit would make her 'just like God'. The difference being the ignorance with which Adam ate the fruit compared to the deliberate deception involved with Eve's purpose and THEN causing her husband to stumble too. GET IT? Probably not. Eve probably didn't either.

Yes Adam sinned. But certainly not in the same manor as Eve. That's why Eve was punished separately from Adam. One aspect of her particular punishment was that she WOULD BE SUBSERVIENT to HER HUSBAND. Not my job to judge God's decisions so I don't. Accept them and be the best that you can.

On this same note. Ever read what Paul told slaves to do? Is this also unfair in your opinion? Wow, slavery has been used by God to punish people since the beginning of civilization. Is He wrong?

I always kind of figured that the Creator is in a position to set His own rules. The creation was meant to follow them. But, just like rebellious children that insist on doing things their way, there are those that we call 'adults' that are worse than they are.

Notice also in his letters to the Corinthians he says this exact thing to them. GROW UP. WHY AM I STILL FEEDING YOU WITH MILK. Allow the Spirit to guide you and you won't have all these problems. BUT YOU HAVE TO GROW UP FIRST before the Spirit can truly live within you. Put aside your pagan and selfish ways FIRST, learn to love God and your neighbor, and THEN receive the Spirit more fully each day to lead you in God's will.

And since you like quotes: 1Corinthians once again, but read it carefully.

36 What? came the word of God out from YOU? or came it unto YOU ONLY?
37 If ANY man think HIMSELF to be a prophet, or SPIRITUAL, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are THE COMMANDMENTS of the LORD,
38 BUT if ANY MAN BE IGNORANT, let him be IGNORANT.
40 Let all things be done DECENTLY AND IN ORDER.

Boy, does it get any plainer than this? OBVIOUSLY there were those in Corinth that were suffering from the same problem that we are dealing with here on this thread. Women wanting to run the show when they were SUPPOSED to be learning from the Spirit instead of their OWN WILL. If ANY MAN, see that? ANY MAN even THINK himself to be a prophet, or EVEN spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD. NO, not just my words, is what Paul is saying, BUT THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD.

 

[Imagican]

Solo,

Amen brother. We don't agree often, but that is exactly what has taken place. The churches bowing to the wishes of men, (and women), instead of God. Brings to the light the idea of a 'falling away' doesn't it? Satan wanted to be God, man wants to be God. And we know what's going to happen to him.

 

[Quath]

Adam trusted Eve for she was given to him BY GOD. Eve on the other hand was told that to eat the fruit would make her 'just like God'. The difference being the ignorance with which Adam ate the fruit compared to the deliberate deception involved with Eve's purpose and THEN causing her husband to stumble too. GET IT? Probably not. Eve probably didn't either.

I find this to be a co-out. If Adam should trust Eve because she was made by God, then Eve should trust the serpent because it was made byGod as well. The bottom line is they were both told not to eat the fruit and they both ate it.

The problem I have with this story is that the tree was for the knowledge of good and evil. So how did Adam and Eve know it was evil to disobey God? How were they to know that talking serpents lie? The story as told is a big set-up. It seems written by men who wanted to justify keeping their wives in a submissive role.

Quath

 

[kwag_myers]

I'm really getting tired of this "submissive wife" thing being taken out of context, e.g., Ephesians 5:22. Read verse 21, then read 25. How is it that the Submissive Wife teachers never talk about the husband's responsibility? If they do, it's a token gesture.

Or what about verse 23? The word "head" is kephale in the original Greek. It's the same word used in Luke 20:17 in describing Jesus as "...the head of the corner", i.e., the cornerstone. Which goes along with Christ being the head of the church. In this particular context, Paul is not talking about authority but of the structure and conduct of the church members. The submissiveness of a wife is directly related to the conduct of the husband, and if she cannot depend on him as the "cornerstone of their marriage", how can she submit to him? That is just plain dangerous, both physically and spiritually.

 

[NRoof]

Rom 5:14 Yet, death ruled from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin in the same way Adam did when he disobeyed. Adam is an image of the one who would come.

Note the contrast with the other passage that is often used as justification:

1Ti 2:11 A woman must learn in silence, in keeping with her position.
1Ti 2:12 I don't allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. Instead, she should be quiet.
1Ti 2:13 After all, Adam was formed first, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 Besides that, Adam was not deceived. It was the woman who was deceived and sinned.

I fail to see a contradiction here as Imagican has stated.

Genesis 2
15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.†18 And the LORD God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.â€Â

So who committed the first sin? It was Adam and not Eve. It is clear from scripture that the command not to eat from the tree of knowledge was given to Adam and not Eve and she was'nt created yet. What we don’t know is if God or Adam told Eve it was forbidden but it is clear she knew is was forbidden. Eve was deceived (tricked) into believing it was it was OK to eat of the tree. Adam was not deceived but willfully disobeyed God.

As far as if women should be pastors I don’t believe they should as the scriptures already provided show.
Here is a good article on the subject.
http://www.carm.org/questions/womenpastors.htm

God created men and women to be different. In that same light the tasks he has given to each is also different. One is not more important than the other but when combined they make up all of what God wanted. The two shall become one and together they will be whole.

 

[BJGrolle]

D46, a little background on me might be in order to get to your questions. I shared a little bit of this with the Bible study class, so they could understand where I'm coming from. But I will delve into greater detail here, because it might be helpful to this discussion. I hope so anyway. Please read through this with some patience.

My parents were separated before I was born and divorced shortly after. I was raised in a non-Christian household consisting of my maternal grandparents, my uncle, and my mother. I had no church upbringing. They hated God, they didn't believe in hell, and they didn't believe in the Bible. I witnessed and was subjected to abuse of both a physical nature and an emotional nature for many, many years. It was an angry, violent household.

Most of the time, my father was absent. He was in the Navy for about 8 years, then he married a 2nd time and lived in another state. Many months would pass between visits. I was prevented from visiting my paternal grandparents most of the time. They were Catholic and my mother's family didn't want any of their "religion" influencing me. :roll:

I knew of God. I knew that Jesus died on the cross for my sins. But that's all. I didn't have access to a Bible. One time my paternal grandparents gave me a children's Bible storybook. I had it a very short time - my mother's family threw it away one day.

I did receive love from my maternal great-grandmothers - that kept me going for a long time. And once in awhile, I'd feel a loving presence nearby, though there was no one around. I would see things and experience things - let's just say for the moment that I believe God sent angels to watch over me. Certainly, my family wasn't doing it.

When I was 16, I lost both my great-grandmothers. They had been my only connection to unconditional human love. After a time, I became so depressed, I seriously thought about taking my life. Remember, I had no access to a Bible, a church, a pastor, anything tangible of God in this world to help me. This was around 1979 and no one got involved in personal family matters back then. You couldn't pick up the phone and dial 911 and ask for help like kids can now when they're being abused.

So, I was sitting there alone in my room, crying, wondering seriously how to go about not being here anymore, when God spoke to me. Literally. I heard the voice of God inside my head.

Now, I'm sure that somebody reading this will think that I"m crazy. Look at all the crazy people who say that "voices in their head" told them to kill someone. You know that God doesn't do that. God doesn't tell you to hurt people.

And I know i'm risking credibility by even sharing this with you. So be it. Whatever. I'm not ashamed.

Moving on, you can't imagine what that was like, hearing the voice of God. It was incredible! That day, He literally saved my life. My depression didn't vanish like magic, but no matter what, I never ever considered suicide since that day. God didn't want me to do it, and that was what counted.

God hasn't spoken to me in that exact manner since, but He still sent angels to watch over me. Believe me, I still needed them. And, often His presence can be found in the little things, as you well know.

As I got older, things settled down somewhat. I was getting too big to push around anymore, I guess. There were still a lot of things I didn't understand for many years afterwards.

My mother died in 1991 from cancer. My grandparents made it my responsibility to pay her medical bills throughout her long illness - I was working full-time literally just to meet those expenses. I had nothing left for myself to even dream of moving on and building a life for myself. Truthfully, if I had known then what I know now, I would have walked away and left them all to rot. But I was blissfully ignorant, so there it was.

After she died, I felt a mixture of grief and relief, if you can understand that. For the first time in my life, I was going to be able to put myself first and try to make plans for my life. I was 27 years old and it was about time - I felt.

But God had other ideas for me. A few short weeks after my mother died, he brought the man into my life who is now my husband. It was so ironic, because that was the last thing on my mind. You don't need to know all the details of that.

It was my husband who first introduced me to churchgoing. He bought me my first Bible for our first Christmas together. For the first time in my life, I had someone I could talk to and ask questions of about Christianity. I was baptized in the Lutheran church (LCMS) on April 26, 1992, less than 2 weeks before our wedding.

My maternal grandparents refused to attend my baptism. My grandmother called me a fool for doing it.

We've attended LCMS churches ever since, because that's how my husband had been brought up. We left the church we were married in when we moved into our present home. We've been through just about every LCMS church in our area - each one is failing financially. The membership is made up of 90% retired seniors. This has been true of the previous 2 churches we tried in this area, as well as the one we currently are members of. The pews are only about 1/3 full on a good day. Our area is growing exponentially with new construction, yet the young families do not come into the LCMS.

So, D46, I haven't been a lifelong Lutheran, never read Luther's Catechism, not familar with the 95 Articles, though I've heard them all mentioned often enough.

This will come back to bite me, but I shall say it anyway: I'm not real big on organized religion. If it's not in the Bible, don't bother me with it. There, I've put my head on the chopping block.

The church we were married in had a nice-sized choir, with both men and women. The next 2 churches we tried had maybe a half-dozen women in the choir - no men. Our current church had a choir of similar size, mostly women, maybe one man. We haven't had one for a couple of years, but I've heard they're trying to form one again. And it is open to both men and women.

As for the men - they are about the age of your neighbor, some older. They don't seem to have anything against women taking the lead in certain areas. It was about 15 years ago - before our time there - that the congregation elected a woman to be President. I assume some of the men must have voted her in also. When the heads of the LCMS found out, they kicked her out.

Our current President doesn't want to serve anymore, but he stepped forward for yet another year last election, because nobody else would step up to be elected. This presents an interesting dilemma, particularly if people choose to not allow a woman to take a leadership role in the church. If none of the men are willing, then who is left to serve?

We don't have a pastor anymore. He received a call in August and by late September he was gone. It was very short and very sudden notice. He was dissatisifed with the congregation after 11 years, so he left to become an intentional interim pastor.

In fact, that's how I came to start teaching Bible class. The pastor usually taught the class from Sept. through May, with no class in the summer. Because he was leaving, he didn't bother starting the class up again. A couple of the regular class members were greatly disappointed that there was no Bible study class anymore. A few weeks went by. During that time, no one stepped forward to volunteer to lead a Bible study class.

It happened on the first Sunday that we didn't have our regular pastor anymore. One of the former Bible study members told me how much she missed Bible study class. I asked her how she'd feel about me teaching it. She loved the idea. So, I spoke with the pastor who had been chosen to preach that day. I told him that I was going to be starting up a new Bible study class the following Sunday. During the service, he asked me to stand up and make the announcement. Our class size is growing. We have about an equal mix of men and women in the class. It's a very dynamic group and everyone gets a chance to speak and ask questions. We learn from each other.

There wasn't any opposition to my teaching the Bible study class. If the men had been against it, I'm sure I would have heard about it.

The pastor who allowed me to make the announcement of the new Bible study class, expressed interest in becoming our vacancy pastor. I don't know if he's officially in that capacity now. During our worship service a couple of weeks ago, he called me up to the front of the congregation and installed me as the new adult Bible study teacher. If this is against the Word of God, why did he do this? Can anyone answer that?

Bottom line is this, God uses who he will for whatever purpose be it male or whether it be female. We are one in his eyes. One doesn't need to walk ten paces behind the other to show respect.

This is how I feel also.

But, going back to my family history:

In 1998 my maternal grandfather died. A few years later, my maternal grandmother had to go to a nursing home. Due to some unusual circumstances, I found out some shocking things about my maternal grandparents. For the first time in my life, I understood why they were against Christianity and God. I understood what the root cause of the abuse was. It all made sense - though it's never acceptable.

Yes, I believe the Bible is the Word of God. That may sound strange to some of you who accuse me of picking and choosing what to follow and what not to follow. I want to follow all of it. I believe that the Bible is an all-or-nothing deal - that comes from my heart.

When I first approached Rev. Bergen about the subject, it was his comment that the Bible doesn't say that women can't be ordained as pastors that caused me to dig deeper. If he had been able to produce Bible verses to back up his position, I would have let it go.

The comment on my blog upset me, because according to those 2 verses, I should not be teaching Bible study class. I should not have a Christian blog or be posting in this forum, because there is no way I can prevent a man from reading my words. I'm not stupid, although some of you prefer to think that I'm pretending to be stupid. That's your opinion.

Yet, it was the work of the Holy Spirit that caused me to do these things. I was reading a Christian book. There were some passages about trusting God. I closed the book and spoke to God, telling him that part of my problem is that I wasn't trusting Him enough in certain areas. I was trying to do it on my own, and that was wrong.

So, I said to Him that I would trust him to take care of things for me. Almost instantly, the Holy Spirit filled me with the certainty that I was meant to pursue Christian ministry issues on the Internet, doing an online Bible study, posting in Christian forums, trying to reach out and help people, whatever was needed. I started these pursuits in early August.

But, I know that some of you won't believe me. That's OK. I'm just the crazy lady who heard a voice in her head a long time ago and thought it was God, right? :wink:

Now, I will tell you this, if you've stayed with me this far: One commandment that I cannot honor is the one that commands me to honor my father and mother. It's there in the Bible as the Word of God. It's what he wishes for me to do.

But God also knows what my parents did, what my maternal grandparents did, and so on.

I was not subjected to sexual abuse by my maternal grandfather, but I found out that other family members had been, my mother included. My grandmother knew about it and did nothing, because keeping her husband was the most important thing in the world to her. My grandfather hated me because he suspected that I was his daughter. Because of their depravity, I was subjected to abuse both emotional and physical, and neglect. I spoke with 3 people in my mother's family and was able to find out about at least 2 generations of men who had been committing the sin of incest with several female relatives.

I only found out these things a few years ago and it took me a very long time to work through some form of forgiveness, as the Bible says we are to do for our own sakes. And this is the first time I've been able to write about these things in this detail on a public forum.

That's bad enough. Backing up a bit:

After more than 20 years of no contact with my father, I decided to contact him to try and reconcile. Ultimately, when I was 13, my mother forced me to quit seeing him altogether for no reason that I could see. He had gotten divorced from his 2nd wife and moved back in with his parents, so he was coming around quite often. Again, I don't know why, but she put an end to our relationship.

So, here I am, a happily married women, and 5 years ago I decided to call my father. Miraculously, he was still living in the same house! You can guess the rest: tearful reunion, also reconciliation with my paternal aunt and grandmother, lots of happiness all around.

But, my father had become an alcoholic in the meantime. And his behavior seemed a little odd. It was hard to get him over to the house. When he was here, he barely took an interest in his grandchildren. I put it down to the alcoholism.

Overall, I've seen him only a handful of times in the last 5 years, talked to him on the phone a couple of times, and figured, oh well, that's the way it's going to be, but at least we're on speaking terms, right?

Then in June of this year, our phone rang at 4:15 AM. It was the Cleveland police, telling me that my father had been arrested! It took a couple of days for me to get the full story. At first, they didn't want to give me info over the phone. Then I said: "Look, I've got a family. I need to know if my children are in any danger from him."

He was arrested at 2:00 AM on the day in question on an abduction charge involving a 12 year old girl. They had to let him go because of lack of evidence. In short, he hadn't laid a hand on the girl. But there were witnesses. The detective spoke to the witnesses and the girl. He said that what my father did was dispicable, but they couldn't charge him.

Keep in mind that I barely had a chance to know
my father, so this came as quite a shock to me.

To summarize, my maternal great-grandfather was a pedophile who committed incest and rape, my maternal grandfather committed incest and rape, and my father is a pedophile.

Nice family. Not.

Oh, my father actually called me the night he got out of jail. He wanted me to call him back. When I found the words, I called him back the next day and told him to stay away from me, my husband, and my children - that he was my father in name only. I haven't heard from him since.

He is not the only bad seed on my paternal side. Going back several generations, the men in the family were a bunch of alcoholic wife-beaters. I didn't get to spend much time with my paternal grandfather, though whenever I did, he was chronically drunk.

Before our pastor left, I did speak with him about these issues - the incident with my father being so recent, it sort of renewed the pain of the things I found out a few years ago about my mother's family.

Despite that, I do not hate men, whether you believe that or not, it doesn't matter. I am just very attuned to any attempt by a man to take advantage of a woman in any way and I'm very intolerant of it. I have good reason to be.

Honor thy father and mother? I'm sorry, but God knows I can't and He knows why.

I see a big IF in that commandment. Honor thy father and mother IF thy father and mother treats you with loving kindness and discipline and always looks out for your best interests.

Of course, that shouldn't need to be said, but some people would have you believe that even if your father is raping you, that you should honor him because God said so. :roll:

AVBunyan, thank you for your apology. It does mean a lot to me. Can you see that maybe I have some attitude slipping through also? Forums can be quite helpful and quite devestating at times.

We probably have quite different ideas of what makes a man weak or strong. I don't think of the men in my Bible class as weak. One of them shook my hand after last week's class and congratulated me on such a good class. I don't think that makes him weak. One of the older men in the class likes to tease me. He even asked the question that is going to be our topic of discussion this Sunday. He doesn't think I can answer it and he might be right. : If I say something in class that my husband doesn't agree with, he doesn't hesitate to speak up with his opposing viewpoint. I like this. Who wants a bunch of robots in class?

Yes, women should be sober, love their husbands and children, look out for the best interests of the family. That letter to Titus isn't saying anything bad. It is wrong for women IMO to neglect their families. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that they should.

Well, even though I'd never find you sitting in my Bible study class, I still like you. :

Do you believe that YOUR will is what matters most, or the will of God? What do we know concerning this issue as far as God's will? Once again I refer you to what Paul taught us.

God's will matters the most, of course. I've already explained how I felt the Holy Spirit guiding me in these recent Christian activities of mine. I can't present it any plainer, because you cannot possibly know what I've experienced throughout my life in my personal relationship with God. No more than I could understand your personal relationship with God.

Believe it or not, I'm searching for answers, too. That's why I'm here.

The Bible is presented to us in plain black and white. I gave you the example of one of the Commandments. That is plain, clear-cut, no questions asked as to God's intent with that Commandment.

But the world isn't black and white. It's shades of grey.

My pastor explained it to me this way before he left: the devil is always tempting us. Often, the closer we get to God, the more the devil tries to interfere. He will do anything to try to separate us from God. Some people have the will to resist the devil's influence. Some people don't. Unfortunately, several generations of my family on both sides, didn't.

Someone will say that it's the devil who tempted me to become actively involved in these Christian issues. Those of you who maintain that the Bible is against women teaching and preaching men, why would the devil want women teaching and preaching at all? The last thing the devil wants is anyone preaching and teaching the Word of God to anyone!

Does God want us to honor our fathers and mothers no matter what we might have had to endure at their hands? Later on in the Bible, it says that families will be split apart in the name of Jesus, so that's hardly honoring thy mother and father, isn't it?

I've never been to a Christian forum yet that had a sign that said "Men Only". Why is that?

Paul's letters were written as instructions to guide the early churches during their very difficult formative years, when Christianity was unknown and probably at its weakest, most fragile state of being. That is the literal purpose for their existence in the Bible - and that's what the introductions to each of the letters tells me in my study Bibles.

I'm no big fan of organized religion, as I've said, but what bearing does the situation in Corinth have with us today?

I notice that opponents of having women teach don't want to address Galatians 3:28 in this discussion, brought up way back on page 1.

From The Zondervan Handbook to the Bible:

The story of the different letters is not always easy to discover. Because they were written in response to people's needs and questions, they supply much basic Christian teaching, but not in an organized way. They are vigorous and dynamic, vivid snapsnots from the lives of the first churches.

Paul had sailed from Corinth to Ephesus. After some time there he heard reports of difficulties in the church back at Corinth. He also received a letter from the church itself. 1 Corinthians was his reply. It is essentially a practical letter, in which he tries to heal the divisions in the church, and responds to some of the problems facing new Christians in a pagan city notorious for its immorality.

BTW, the consultants and advisors of The Zondervan Handbook to the Bible consist of 6 identifiable men, 1 woman, and 1 person who just lists initials.

It is the fact that Paul's writings are specifically addressed to specific churches or groups of churches that makes me question whether what might have been proper and excellent advice back then has the same applicability today.

It is the fact that Paul forbids the women to preach and teach in one letter, yet in another letter he acknowledges that women have been preaching and teaching that makes me question whether Paul intended that advice to be advice for everyone for all time forevermore.

That is quite different from questioning the Word of God.

Can anyone point out a Bible verse where God or Jesus specifically forbids women to preach and teach in the church?

joyinhim, true enough, sadly, true enough, that some pastors have taken horrible advantage of their position.

Solo, let's pick apart the Word of God and try to understand God's intent and how best to live by His Word and carry out that intent to the best of our abilities.

Imagican, you have it right there in black and white (bolding mine):

Rom 5:14 Yet, death ruled from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin in the same way Adam did when he disobeyed. Adam is an image of the one who would come.

Note the contrast with the other passage that is often used as justification:

1Ti 2:11 A woman must learn in silence, in keeping with her position.
1Ti 2:12 I don't allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. Instead, she should be quiet.
1Ti 2:13 After all, Adam was formed first, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 Besides that, Adam was not deceived. It was the woman who was deceived and sinned.

The point was, which you seem to have missed, is that Paul wrote in his letter to Timothy that Adam didn't sin. He specifically says that "It was the women who was deceived and sinned."

Yet, in Paul's letter to the Romans, he says that Adam sinned.

So, which is it? Here we supposedly have the same man saying 2 completely opposite things about Adam. Paul says that Adam didn't sin. Paul says that Adam did sin.

The issue is not whether Adam was created first - that is a fact. The issue isn't whether Eve sinned first - that is a fact.

The issue is that Paul said 2 completely different and opposite things about Adam regarding the same occurance. They can't both be true. Either Adam sinned or he didn't! Which is it?

Some of you want to be so quick to put the whole blame on Eve, but God didn't do that, so why do you think you have the right to? She did wrong, no doubt, but read the whole chapter of Genesis 3, don't just pick out what suits your argument:

Genesis 3 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



Genesis 3
The Fall of Man
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"

10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."

11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

12 The man said, "The woman you put here with meâ€â€she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."

16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

20 Adam [c] named his wife Eve, [d] because she would become the mother of all the living.

21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Note verse 6 - Adam was with Eve the whole time during this conversation between Eve and the serpent. Did he stop her? Did he tell the serpent to go away and quit bothering his wife? No! He stood there and just let it happen! He listened to the whole temptation and watched as Eve ate the apple.

Then Eve handed him a piece, and he ate some. Why? Who knows and who cares? He showed the same distrust in God's command not to eat of the fruit as Eve did. For that one split second that it probably took, he put Eve above God.

In verse 12, Adam tries to put the blame on Eve. But did Eve force him to eat it? No, he did that of his own free will. And God didn't accept any excuses.

In verses 14 and 15, God brings down His wrath upon the serpent.

In verse 16, God brings down His wrath upon Eve.

In verses 17 through 19, God brings down His wrath upon Adam.

Each received punishment in the order in which they had sinned.

It's right there in the Bible. Adam sinned second, but indeed he did sin. So for Paul to claim in one letter that Adam didn't sin is not true. If Adam wasn't deceived, then why did he eat of the fruit? There's no logical answer to that one, is there?

Should Adam have trusted Eve more than God? No!

Does it matter what manner of sin it was or in what order it took place? All sin is reprehensible to God. All are equally guilty.

1 Corinthians 9:3 says:

3This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4Don't we have the right to food and drink? 5Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas[a]? 6Or is it only I and Barnabas who must work for a living?

So much for women being just keepers of the home? I'm not sure.

NRoof, thank you for the link to that article. It was interesting. I'd like to ask about a couple of paragraphs here:

First of all, women are under-appreciated and under-utilized in the church. There are many gifted women who might very well do a better job at preaching and teaching than many men. However, it isn't gifting that is the issue, but God's order and calling. What does the Bible say? We cannot come to God's word with a social agenda and make it fit our wants. Instead, we must change and adapt to what it says.


In 1 Corinthians 12, Paul is talking about spiritual gifts. Specifically:

4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

So, some would say that because the word "man" is used in the Bible, that spiritual gifts are only given to men.

But the author of that article admits that many women are gifted and would make better teachers and preachers than men! Who gave these women those gifts? Wasn't it God Himself?

Second, if in some highly unusual set of circumstances there is a woman in a lone situation, it is far more important that the word of God be preached and the gospel of salvation go forth to the lost than not. Whether it be male or female, let the gospel be spoken. However, I would say that as soon as there is/are males mature enough to handle eldership, that she should then establish the proper order of the church as revealed in scripture and thereby, show her submission to it.


If one is going to bend the "rules" in certain situations, doesn't that still go against the Word of God?

As I said many paragraphs ago, no one else stepped forward to teach a Bible study class in my church after the pastor left. Yet, many of you would see me raked over the coals for teaching a Bible study class because you feel it is against the Word of God.

I'm teaching people to try to understand the Word of God, the intent behind the passages, and what it means for us today. Recent topics include:

What does it mean to be of this world?
What does it mean to fear God?
What does it mean to be a Christian?

This Sunday's topic is: Where do you go when you die?

This Sunday's topic and the 2 previous were special requests of the class.

I have no desire to be a pastor. I just like doing the Bible study and participating in Christian forums.

Anyone who feels that is wrong and against the Word of God doesn't have to pay attention to me. :wink:

Seriously, I'm trying to understand the apparent contradictions and the intent behind the passages. Yet, as expected, those who agree that women should remain silent in the church will not address or acknowledge that these contradictions exist, though they are in plain black and white in this forum taken directly from the Bible - doesn't matter which version you use either.

I'm done for awhile - gotta go eat.

 

[D46]

My Lord...what a story little sister!! Guess I can call you that as you slipped up and basically told your age and I have about twenty years on you. It's about 6:30 in my neck of the woods and I'm going to get myself a gourmet TV dinner upstairs. I have to think about all this as it is quite a story and I'm sorry you didn't have a better childhood. Mine was good-very good and while I don't have my parents with me anymore I can't remember not loving them and respecteing them. I got my share of "beatings" from them...mostly my Mom but, no doubt I deserved it. Get back with you later on this. Before I go, I want to say I think a woman teaching bible classes should be no problem as I've always seen that sort of thing although they didn't teach the adults-mostly children up to 12 or 13. After that they could sit in the congregation and listen to the pastor with the rest of us "big kids". Most of that sort of teaching was on Sunday morning so the adults could hear the pastor without kids whining or crying and disrupting the service. There was no "cry" room like the Catholics have, but; I think they came up with a good idea on that one.

 

[BJGrolle]

Ah, it's OK, I don't care if people know how old I am.

That's an abbreviated version of my life story - told only so that my comments might be put in the proper perspective.

A parallel situation: I wrote a post in my blog about the CVA - Christian Vegetarian Association. According to a news article, they claimed that it was against the Word of God to eat meat. I figured I'd better check it out. I found proof in the Bible that God did create us to be vegetarians. Then I looked a little further and found proof that God said it was OK to eat meat and birds later on in the Bible. Big difference! The CVA left off half the story to try and prove their point! That is wrong, IMO.

That is an entirely different issue, but the same tactic is being used here: Pull out the verse that supports your position and ignore the verse that proves that position wasn't the last Word or the only Word that God had to say on the matter. It's ironic that I've been accused of doing exactly that, when I've acknowledged all along the contradictions about the issue of a woman's position in the church. Plus, I've posted many verses that show those contradictions.

Since Paul's letters were written as a response to specific problems that specific churches were experiencing, we only know half the story. The letters that he received are not included in the Bible, correctly so, as they are not the inspired Word of God. But without that other half of the story, it's very hard to understand the Holy Spirit's intent behind Paul's advice to the churches.

On faith alone, we have to believe that Paul's letters were reflective of the correct advice from the Holy Spirit to the people Paul was writing to. How are we supposed to assume that advice is supposed to be extrapolated to apply to all people everywhere for all time?

I'm not even going to get into this one right now, but to boggle your mind further, one of Paul's letters specifically speaks out against marriage! Since God created marriage, plus created a woman to be a helper and companion to Adam, well...I'll leave you to your thoughts on that one.

 

[NRoof]

Rom 5:14 Yet, death ruled from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin in the same way Adam did when he disobeyed. Adam is an image of the one who would come.

This clearly shows that Adam did in fact sin.

Note the contrast with the other passage that is often used as justification:

1Ti 2:11 A woman must learn in silence, in keeping with her position.
1Ti 2:12 I don't allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. Instead, she should be quiet.
1Ti 2:13 After all, Adam was formed first, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 Besides that, Adam was not deceived. It was the woman who was deceived and sinned.

All this is saying is Adam was not deceived (tricked). He willfully disobeyed God.

As I stated before:

I fail to see a contradiction here as Imagican has stated.

Genesis 2
15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.†18 And the LORD God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.â€Â

So who committed the first sin? It was Adam and not Eve. It is clear from scripture that the command not to eat from the tree of knowledge was given to Adam and not Eve and she was'nt created yet. What we don’t know is if God or Adam told Eve it was forbidden but it is clear she knew is was forbidden. Eve was deceived (tricked) into believing it was it was OK to eat of the tree. Adam was not deceived but willfully disobeyed God.

I notice that opponents of having women teach don't want to address Galatians 3:28 in this discussion, brought up way back on page 1.

This is from the link I posted before so it has been addressed.

What About Galatians 3:28?

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus," (Gal. 3:28).
This verse is often used to support the idea that women can hold the offices of elder and pastor because there is neither male nor female in Christ. The argument states that if we are all equal, then women can be pastors.
Unfortunately, those who use this verse this way have failed to read the context. Verse 23 talks about being under the Law "before faith came" and how we are brought closer to Jesus and have become sons of God by faith. We are no longer under law, but grace and we are "Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise," (v. 29).(2) The point of this passage is that we are all saved by God's grace according to the promise of God and that it doesn't matter who you are, Jew, Greek, slave, free, male, or female. All are saved the same way, by grace. In that, there is neither male nor female.
This verse is not talking about church structure. It is talking about salvation "in Christ." It cannot be used to support women as pastors because that isn't what it is talking about. Instead, to find out about church structure and leadership, you need to go to those passages that talk about it: 1 Timothy 2 and Titus 1.

I'm short on time right now so I will get back to you on the other 2 questions you have from the link I posted.