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The role of women in the church

The scriptures of the New Testament are for the age of the Church, from Jesus until his return. The world may change but God will be the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

100% wholeheartedly agreed! :D Which is why I am reluctant to say "this is God's agenda for authority", for I do not know until it is revealed - in his time in his place and in his way. I do believe however that there are provisions made in Christ to bring about his new covernant to it's full capacity in our changing world.

Which is why I love the Matthew 23:37 verse, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not."

The new covernant is between God and Jesus and not God and mankind. Therefore God will trust the full word coming into fruition via the Spirit being poured upon mankind - rather than relying on the fact that Eve deceived her husband and Adam put her words before God's command.

"So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you." - 2 Corinthians 4:12

Also, I do not see the position of the woman believer in such a negative light as some see themselves or others. I believe that the women believers are held in as high of an esteem as the church is held by Jesus Christ. I believe that the disobedience of men and women bring negative consequences, and those consequences can be lifelong, however, believers have the power of Jesus Christ to overcome, and we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us.

We agree on so much. When we overcome with Christ we become a testimony to others who have fallen down. Just in your capacity as you have shared your understanding of the word (thanks for doing so by the way) - so too, are others sharing. Not for rebelliousness' sake, but because we are all led through the valley of death with Christ and will come out transformed for the purpose he has intended for us.

Maybe that was a little more than one point, but when I get going, I get on a role.

I know the feeling, LOL. :wink: God bless you and yours'. :D
 
guibox said:
The ultimate question isn't 'Why are women in the pulpit?"

The question should be, "What the heck are they doing out of the KITCHEN??" :-D

Not to mention barefoot and pregnant and catering to the every whim of the male. We need to get our priorities in order!
 
Thank you. :D

You truly speak with divine inspiration from the Holy Spirit. When I read your posts, I can feel God's influence very strongly.

Thank you for noticing the fruit which Jesus has been working on for so long. Although I must confess that I will always be a work in progress; and as such, anything I say which does not reflect the spirit of truth, is where you will see I am still in much need of a Saviour.

He continues to work, Amen! :D

I might also add that I have seen much good fruit also in this discussion, both male and female alike. So too, he continues to work in all of us, Amen!
 
guibox said:
The ultimate question isn't 'Why are women in the pulpit?"

The question should be, "What the heck are they doing out of the KITCHEN??" :-D

* ducks and runs as all the females on the forum chuck rotten tomatoes...*

:lol:
 
Aren't we all works in progress? :)

Now, anybody got a rotten tomato for SputnikBoy? :wink:
 
I don't know about a tomato, but I do have a shiny red apple if anyone is interested, LOL. :wink:

*thankfully we can all still laugh about it* :lol:
 
The Word of God is the authority of God and is complete in its ability to guide all of us into God's will. If our feelings about what God's will is for our life contradicts the Word of God, then we are wrong in our assessment of what God's will is.

I have read many, many interpretations of what God "really" said about many subjects. It is no different than the lie that satan told Adam and Eve at the garden; there he cast doubt about God's Word.

I have read that Sodom and Gommora were not destroyed because of sodomy, but by inhospitality.
I have read that God is unable to save us to the nth degree whereby we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
I have read that portions of Paul's writings were not meant for todays changed world.
etc. etc. etc. etc.

I am finished proclaiming God's truth on this subject so to all on this thread, may God bless each and every one of you for his purpose.
Thanks,
Michael

PS I was infant baptized, and confirmed in a Lutheran chuch as a young man, but I did not know God nor was I saved until I was born again at twenty-eight years old in a small Baptist church. I was baptized for real, and was amazed at the seemingly hidden truths of God that I was continually confronted with.
 
BJGrolle said:
I just did a search and found this:

http://www.greekbible.com/

I can't copy the passage over, because it won't copy as it is shown on the page.

But if you input the book, chapter, and verse, you'll get the Greek text.
Thanks. Here's what it says for 1 Corinthians 14:34,

{ho}
1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

{goo-nay'}
1) a woman of any age, whether a virgin, or married, or a widow 2) a wife 2a) of a betrothed woman

{en}
1) in, by, with etc.

{ho}
1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

{ek-klay-see'-ah}
1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly 1a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating 1b) the assembly of the Israelites 1c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously 1d) in a Christian sense 1d1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting 1d2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake 1d3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body 1d4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth 1d5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

{see-gah'-o}
1) to keep silence, hold one's peace 2) to be kept in silence, be concealed

{oo}
1) no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer

{gar}
1) for

{ep-ee-trep'-o}
1) to turn to, transfer, commit, instruct 2) to permit, allow, give leave

{ow-tos'}
1) himself, herself, themselves, itself 2) he, she, it 3) the same

{lal-eh'-o}
1) to utter a voice or emit a sound 2) to speak 2a) to use the tongue or the faculty of speech 2b) to utter articulate sounds 3) to talk 4) to utter, tell 5) to use words in order to declare one's mind and disclose one's thoughts 5a) to speak

{al-lah'}
1) but 1a) nevertheless, notwithstanding 1b) an objection 1c) an exception 1d) a restriction 1e) nay, rather, yea, moreover 1f) forms a transition to the cardinal matter

{hoop-ot-as'-so}
1) to arrange under, to subordinate 2) to subject, put in subjection 3) to subject one's self, obey 4) to submit to one's control 5) to yield to one's admonition or advice 6) to obey, be subject

{kath-oce'}
1) according as 1a) just as, even as 1b) in proportion as, in the degree that 2) since, seeing that, agreeably to the fact that 3) when, after that

{kahee}
1) and, also, even, indeed, but

{ho}
1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

{nom'-os}
1) anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command 1a) of any law whatsoever 1a1) a law or rule producing a state approved of God 1a1a) by the observance of which is approved of God 1a2) a precept or injunction 1a3) the rule of action prescribed by reason 1b) of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents 1c) the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, esp. the precept concerning love 1d) the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT

{leg'-o}
1) to say, to speak 1a) affirm over, maintain 1b) to teach 1c) to exhort, advise, to command, direct 1d) to point out with words, intend, mean, mean to say 1e) to call by name, to call, name 1f) to speak out, speak of, mention

I don't see how you can get "...women keep silent in the churches..." from this text. Unless you rearrange the sentence. But then, I ain't no Greek Geek.
 
That was a lot to read, even the summaries. :lol:

Let's see...according to that author:

"Women functioning in the biblical male spiritual headship position may be allowed, in fact, instituted by God, when He finds it necessary to take up the slack of irresponsible [read: wimpy] males in the ekklesia. This is done to provoke the men of the ekklesia of God to responsibly assume their spiritual headship roles. When they continue to be irresponsible, and allow the women to continue to rule over them then it leads to evil for the ekklesia and for the women.
Women are free to serve God in whatever capacity He calls and gifts them. The only restriction upon women, seen in scripture by types and antitypes and examples clearly stated by Paul the apostle is that they may not function in a spiritual headship capacity. This includes, but is not necessarily limited to, the doma ascension headship gifts of apostle, prophet, evangelist, elder/pastor/shepherd/bishop/overseer, teacher and also deacon. With a scriptural understanding of spiritual headship, as discussed above, it should be clear why that limitation is there. The types and antitypes of the sacrifice, surrender and anointing were demonstrated by God and by His highest creation, adam. Any arguments to the contrary, regardless of how wonderfully compelling they may be, would violate the spiritual headship concept and principle and be totally counter to scriptural precedents set by God Himself. But God ... when necessary, will utilize women in those positions, much to the shame of the males, when the state of the ekklesia gets low enough because of irresponsible males."


The reason why God allowed/allows women to take a spiritual leadership role is because of the failure of the men to do this, as God said they should. The author of that article points out many specific times when this happened in the Bible.

(Somewhere, many posts ago, I brought that up in the form of: Well, if the men won't step forward, then what are we supposed to do? And I listed specifics of the failure of the leadership of the men in my church.)

When women take a spiritual leadership role, the men are supposed to wake up and realize that they are supposed to be taking on those roles and then go and do it.

"If a Christian married couple understands the biblical principle of male spiritual headship, then all the details involved in the application and exercise of that principle would have been discussed at home. The wife would know and understand that she is not to initiate directives, or judge prophecy, or interpret a spoken tongue, or sing a psalm, or teach, or to speak out a revelation without having pre-discussed those things with her husband at home. (This really involves the totality of all biblical spiritual truth.) Then when she has something to say to those assembled in the local ekklesia, she will acknowledge the fact that she has something to say that is of God and will speak it out without stopping the meeting by asking her husband about it."


As long as the husband and wife have discussed it privately, then it's OK for the wife to speak out, as long as the husband gave her permission. She's not usurping his spiritual authority.

I"m OK with all of that.
 
I didn't think I would be posting in this topic again. But I do think of myself as an honest person, and I hope that most of you came to realize that about me, whether you agreed with my position on this issue or not.

So, in that light, I wanted to come here and confess to you that yesterday, I was removed as the adult Bible study teacher. Our vacancy pastor - who officially installed me a couple of months ago during the church service - made it clear during yesterday's Bible study class that he intended to continue teaching the class after December, which is contrary to what he had previously stated to me in a phone conversation in late November.

We talked about it during the Bible class, as he had chosen to do this during the class time in front of all the class, rather than privately, as would have been more appropriate and proper IMO.

Well, yesterday I was feeling confused, angry, and bitter. Yes, I did shed tears over it. It felt intensely personal, particularly as we'd never had any open disagreements that I was aware of.

Today, I felt that I couldn't walk back into Bible class in 2 weeks with this anger and bitterness in my heart. So I called him at the prison where he works. We had a lengthy conversation, not only about what he did yesterday, but about what he sees as the future direction of our church (his idea, not mine).

He said he knows he's stepping on toes, but it needs to be done. I can agree with him on certain aspects of it, but not necessarily everything. He is rebuking people publicly rather than in private - I've heard other stories before yesterday.

But those situations have nothing to do with me, so that's not what I'm talking about right now.

In short, his decision to remove me as the adult Bible study teacher and take over the class himself came about because he feels that I've made comments that are against Lutheran doctrine and he says that the resource materials that I use sometimes contradict Lutheran doctrine.

When I asked him for some specifics, he immediately referenced a conversation that we'd had privately a few weeks ago when I'd consulted him on a matter having to do with a conversation I had with someone else about a Biblical issue. I wanted to consult with him to make sure I'd handled it right. The odd thing is that my conversation with both the other person and our vacancy pastor matches exactly what the Bible says about the issue, down to quoting chapter and verse. (No, the issue has nothing to do with women's role in the church.) And he felt that I'd understood the issue correctly as the Bible teaches it, so I walked away from that conversation feeling OK about things.

Then today on the phone, when he referenced that conversation, he went on to say that the Bible says, blah, blah, blah, which again was exactly what I had said and it matched what he was saying exactly and it matched exactly what I'd told the other person in the first place. So we had no disagreement with the Bible or Lutheran doctrine a few weeks ago, or today, yet he used that as one of his reasons for removing me. Color me confused.

The second reason again involves Lutheran doctrine. He doesn't like the resource material I use to help in interpreting the Bible. He says that sometimes these authors say things that conflict with Lutheran doctrine, although not necessarily across-the-board. I'm talking about my sources from e-Sword. I only got as far as mentioning these to him to try and find out which ones he found objectionable: Albert Barnes, Adam Clarke, John Darby, Geneva, John Gill, Matthew Henry, plus I have 10 other commentaries plus 13 dictionaries, including Strong's. He wouldn't tell me which ones he didn't like.

Yet, he wants me to continue to bring in material from those resources and use them for discussion in Bible class. Color me a bit confused again.

He wants me to continue to be influential in Bible study class, and he will call upon me from time to time to take an active role in the class. If he thinks I'm straying from Lutheran doctrine, then he'll step in and take over the discussion again.

Color me confused. Again.

Well, God closes one door (I think), and He opens another.

If anyone wants to gloat and say "told ya so" go right ahead if it makes you feel better.

On the plus side, not having to prepare weekly lessons will free up more of my time to spend on my online Christian work and my eBay bookselling (after Christmas). Hey, just think, I'll have more time to spend here with you kind folks! :D
 
Boy, it sounds as if you have one confused/confusing pastor. Perhaps he is simply displeased with the success that you are having with your Bible study and doesn't want to 'share the glory'. Does seem as if he could have at least been honest enough to correct you if he thought that you were teaching something against the doctrine of this particular denomination. Sounds like a strange man.


We'll be glad to see more of you though.
 
BJGrolle said:
On the plus side, not having to prepare weekly lessons will free up more of my time to spend on my online Christian work and my eBay bookselling (after Christmas). Hey, just think, I'll have more time to spend here with you kind folks! :D

Whatever the human reasons,..... God allowed it.

Where then should our eyes be focused, according to scripture, on the things below or above?

Maybe the classs had become somewhat of an altar for you, and God is very jealous when it comes to his glory.

Amen,.... He saved you from your class.


In love,
cj
 
Imagican, thanks. :)

cj, I hope that it wasn't any sense of personal pride on my part that led to this. I was happy to be leading the class, but it was for such a short time that I hadn't had much of a chance to make it grow or anything like that.

I did make the class highly interactive and they seemed to enjoy that. IOW, I wasn't sitting there speaking and teaching for 45 minutes straight while the class sat there in silence. Most of the time we never even got through all my notes because there was so much back-and-forth discussion. They created sparks of inspiration in me as well - I learned so much by listening to them.

But, as you said, God allowed this to happen, and for reasons that I don't understand right now. In time, I trust that I will learn whatever lesson He wants to teach me from this. :)
 
It is written that you will suffer in delivering the Lord's message, consider this validation. :wink:

The other day I had a conversation with a relative of mine that I'm very close to, and all she could do was speak negatively of others in my family I am close to as well.

I had a very spiritual moment during this conversation - it was almost like I could see the face of Jesus. For as they were vexing over the suffering someone had caused them, all I could see was the face of Jesus. The more she vexed and justified her negativity, the more I could see him and I told her that suffering is why we are here. She is a Christian also.

With Jesus in her life the suffering takes on a whole new purpose though. It's not the other person who is making her miserable, it is the fact she has bought into the snare of the enemy who would have us kick against the pricks till no end. That way we don't have enough hope to spread the word to prevent those causing more suffering.

I was tempted to become dishearted by her dismay because it has become quite a pattern. When I saw the face of Jesus amongst the description of her torment however, I recognised that suffering was not there for sufferings sake. The suffering is there to draw us closer to the Lord and make his message have more meaning in our lives to others.

When you suffer for his cause you do righteousness in and through him. How you react to your suffering however depends if you're a faithful servant or someone who wants to stop the suffering for your own sake. Pain and discomfort tempts us to stop trusting that God is delivering his purpose through us. When we buy into that temptation his message loses purpose in and through us.

Jesus asked his disciples, ought not he have sufferred these things? So too, I liken the suffering Christian nowadays to the two men who were crucified next to Jesus. One rallied Jesus to save them if he was the Messiah as if to prove who he said he was. The other accepted his fate and asked Jesus to remember him when he came into his Kingdom.

You can either ponder the actions of your pastor and kick against the pricks till no end - or you can accept your fate as the deliverer of the Lord's message and know he will remember you when his Kingdom returns. :wink: That thought often keeps me going. Ought not we have suffered these things to spread his good word?

By the way, it sounds like you prefer to accept your fate and move onwards in your walk with the Lord. Don't look back however because that's not the way forwards. :wink: I agree this was of the Lord for reasons that have only just been sown. The harvest may be some time away yet. Have hope that God is working in and through you for his cause.
 
Thank you, Klee shay, for sharing your testimony and your perspective on this matter.

I have accepted this and I'm not in any way discouraged from continuing to spread the Word and minister to people whenever I can.

In fact, a unique opportunity came up this week.

A couple of months ago, I went on a much-needed housecleaning binge, setting aside my kids' outgrown clothes and books, plus an assortment of kitchen items that I'd never used. These sat on our basement shelves waiting for spring, when I intended to donate them for our church rummage sale.

A couple of days ago, a local woman was featured in the newspaper. She had a hazardous material spill in her home and everything had to be removed and destroyed. She's a single woman with 5 kids. Fortunately, they're all OK, but they lost everything. This was 3 months ago, and her kids were still living with other family members at the mandate of the county children's services - she had no furniture, no clothes, no beds, etc. She couldn't get them back until she could prove that she was providing a safe living environment for them. There was a phone number listed to call if you wanted to help.

I thought of all that stuff in the basement. I called my husband at work and asked him if I could call the number and make arrangements to give her the stuff.

So, it was done and the woman picked up the stuff yesterday. I gave her a couple of bags full of kids clothes, many, many children's books and VHS tapes, a few small kitchen appliances, and a few boxes of toys. I had a Reader's Digest Condensed Bible that I didn't want anymore, so I gave that to her also.

I've never done anything like this before. I couldn't have foreseen that my housecleaning work of a few months ago was going to help out a specific family in need a few days before Christmas. I've been short on space in the basement also. I've been tempted to just take the stuff into church now and put it in storage, despite the cold weather. But something held me back. That is the Lord's work in no uncertain terms IMO.

Praise the Lord! :smt038
 
Sounds like he's definitely shining his light and still making miracles happen on his birthday. The Lord is good and so are you for heeding his calls.

A great Christmas love story. :D
 
Quath said:
The Bible is very repressive towards women. Modern Christianity tends to try to look past these passages, but they are there and show the sexism of the Bible.

It starts off with Eve's curse making women submit to their husbands even though they committed the same crime. They both ate the forbidden fruit, yet Eve get's Adam's punishments and more.

The New Testament basically tells women to be quite in church and let the men explain everything at home. It says that man is like Jesus but woman is like man. So men are closer to God.

Women are treated horribly in the Old Testament by the laws of God. For example, nonvirgin women are killed if they marry while nonvirgin men are not. A raped virgin woman must marry her rapist. There does not seem to be a punishment if the women were a slave. However, if the woman was an engaged slave, the man must sacrifice an animal.

A menstrating woman defiles everything she touches. A woman is twice as dirty if she gives birth to a girl than if she gives borth to a boy. A man is worth 50 shekels and a woman is worth 30.

A woman can't make a vow unless her husband allows it.

A man may force a woman on the battlefield to be his wife.

God detests women that wear men's colthing.

If a wife accidentally touches another man's genitals while saving her husband from a fight, she has to get her hand cut off. There is no law like this for men.

Women are treated horrible in the Bible. There are a few cases they are treated nice, but it is kind of rare. The Bible was one of the biggest hurdles that women had to overcome to be able to gain the right to vote.

Quath

HI QUATH

can you supply the chapter and verse numbers to these comments. Would appreciate it, that is if you have not already done so, as I have come to the post quite late.

thanks anyway
45rt
 
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