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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
The Root of It
- Thread starter lovely
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It would make sense:
Follow Jesus, LIVE forever
Reject Jesus, DIE forever
Either way it's forever.
Follow Jesus, LIVE forever
Reject Jesus, DIE forever
Either way it's forever.
:
jgredline
Member
Lovely
As destiny, said Good ?
A few years ago I started a study on hell; a study I never finished. I ran my self in circles with all the things the bible as to offer. In the end, what does it really matter. One thing for sure. We will be COMPLETELY SEPPERATED FROM GOD.. This means that no matter how much evil there is in this world,its nothing compared to what it will be like without GOD. Lets face reality here for a second.
Since I am a Pretribulation kind of Guy and I believe the bible teaches this clearly, then its my opinion that when the rapture happens and the christians are taken away, then all hell is going to break loose. Think about it. The U.S. is not mentioned anyplace in scripture.If the rapture happens and there is no Christians left in the U.S. then what you have is a modern day Sodam and Gamora. The U.S. will kill itself. No matter how much the world hates Christians, we are the glue that keep this planet together. I don't need to menton other religions or political parties world wide. You know what I am talking about.
Imagine this world with out Jesus Christ living through his people. Now imagine it 100 or 1000 or 1000000 or 1000,000,000, times worse and that does not beging to describe the evil place that those who reject Christ will in forever.. jUST my 2 cents worth.
As destiny, said Good ?
A few years ago I started a study on hell; a study I never finished. I ran my self in circles with all the things the bible as to offer. In the end, what does it really matter. One thing for sure. We will be COMPLETELY SEPPERATED FROM GOD.. This means that no matter how much evil there is in this world,its nothing compared to what it will be like without GOD. Lets face reality here for a second.
Since I am a Pretribulation kind of Guy and I believe the bible teaches this clearly, then its my opinion that when the rapture happens and the christians are taken away, then all hell is going to break loose. Think about it. The U.S. is not mentioned anyplace in scripture.If the rapture happens and there is no Christians left in the U.S. then what you have is a modern day Sodam and Gamora. The U.S. will kill itself. No matter how much the world hates Christians, we are the glue that keep this planet together. I don't need to menton other religions or political parties world wide. You know what I am talking about.
Imagine this world with out Jesus Christ living through his people. Now imagine it 100 or 1000 or 1000000 or 1000,000,000, times worse and that does not beging to describe the evil place that those who reject Christ will in forever.. jUST my 2 cents worth.
Blazin Bones
Member
No offense jgredline, but how does that pretain to Lovely's original question? I'm curious to hear your thoughts on our souls Eternality. ;)
For me, I think Scripture is clear that our souls are eternal. No where when Revelations addresses heaven and hell does it paint a picture that these things are temporary. Why would our souls be different?
For me, I think Scripture is clear that our souls are eternal. No where when Revelations addresses heaven and hell does it paint a picture that these things are temporary. Why would our souls be different?
reply
I believe we are spirit, soul, and body. An animal has a soul, but no spirit. So when an animal dies, that's it . Because we have a spirit because this is what God did when He created man, we can have eternal life either in heaven or hell. It's our choice. Those in heaven will have a brand new glorified body, and those in hell will have a body that will be tormented day and night. They will have a soul that can feel the pain of hell. Their spirits are separated from God forever. So, what is the solution for mankind?
Man cannot stand in the presense of God as he is, because he has the nature of his father, the devil in him. If man is ever saved, he has to be saved by someone paying the penalty for his sins, and by someone giving him a new nature.
You might take a flop-eared mule and try to make a racehorse of him. You could file his teeth and polish his hooves. You could feed him the finest food, run him around the track every day, and house him in the finest stable. But on the day of the race when the gun sounds, all he'll do is lope off the track, because he is a mule. It's just not in him. Yet you can take a racehorse, and not give him as good as care, but when you put him on the starting line, and the gun sounds, he's gone. It's his nature. He's born and bred that way. In order for that old mule to be a racehorse, he would have to be re-born and that's impossible.
Man, however, who is a spirit living in a body, can be re-born. His nature can be changed. He can become a new creature in Christ Jesus, Man is lost today, not because of what he does, but because of what he is ( what he does is the result of what he is). Man needs life from God, because he is spiritually dead. Thanks be to God, Christ has redeemed us from spiritual death.
May God bless, golfjack
I believe we are spirit, soul, and body. An animal has a soul, but no spirit. So when an animal dies, that's it . Because we have a spirit because this is what God did when He created man, we can have eternal life either in heaven or hell. It's our choice. Those in heaven will have a brand new glorified body, and those in hell will have a body that will be tormented day and night. They will have a soul that can feel the pain of hell. Their spirits are separated from God forever. So, what is the solution for mankind?
Man cannot stand in the presense of God as he is, because he has the nature of his father, the devil in him. If man is ever saved, he has to be saved by someone paying the penalty for his sins, and by someone giving him a new nature.
You might take a flop-eared mule and try to make a racehorse of him. You could file his teeth and polish his hooves. You could feed him the finest food, run him around the track every day, and house him in the finest stable. But on the day of the race when the gun sounds, all he'll do is lope off the track, because he is a mule. It's just not in him. Yet you can take a racehorse, and not give him as good as care, but when you put him on the starting line, and the gun sounds, he's gone. It's his nature. He's born and bred that way. In order for that old mule to be a racehorse, he would have to be re-born and that's impossible.
Man, however, who is a spirit living in a body, can be re-born. His nature can be changed. He can become a new creature in Christ Jesus, Man is lost today, not because of what he does, but because of what he is ( what he does is the result of what he is). Man needs life from God, because he is spiritually dead. Thanks be to God, Christ has redeemed us from spiritual death.
May God bless, golfjack
lovely
Member
Hi everyone, some Scriptures for your consideration...
The soul...
Matthew 10:28
" And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Mark 8:34-38
"34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."
Mark 12:30
"30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment."
Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
The spirit...
1 Corinthians 15:45 "45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."
Ecclesiastes 12:7 " Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
Zechariah 12:1 "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. "
Proverbs 18:14 "The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear?"
1 Corinthians 2:11 "11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."
Ecclesiastes 8:8 "There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it."
The Lord bless all of you.
The soul...
Matthew 10:28
" And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Mark 8:34-38
"34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."
Mark 12:30
"30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment."
Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
The spirit...
1 Corinthians 15:45 "45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."
Ecclesiastes 12:7 " Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
Zechariah 12:1 "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. "
Proverbs 18:14 "The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear?"
1 Corinthians 2:11 "11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."
Ecclesiastes 8:8 "There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it."
The Lord bless all of you.
destiny
Member
Heres some more...
Revelation 14:9-12
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:9-12
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
S
Solo
Guest
Jesus never paints a picture using lies depicting truth. Here is what happened to the Rich man after he died and was buried.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke 16:22-31
How long will this torment in flames be for?
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Revelation 14:10-11
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 20:4-10
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13-15
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:46
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke 16:22-31
How long will this torment in flames be for?
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Revelation 14:10-11
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 20:4-10
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13-15
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:46
lovely
Member
Okay, I would like to continue on with this topic by taking it to the next level, but first I would like to highlight something solo said that I think is overlooked very often.
solo wrote:
Now, I have seen some say that the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus did not actually happen, but solo's point is accurate. Christ does not mix lies in with the truth, as the spirit of the antichrist does (1 John 2:20), and the pictures that are painted with such parables are probably more true that we can really even realize. So, would Jesus say phrases like..."And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments.." OR "...that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." unless it created a an accurate (TRUTHFUL) picture for our human understanding?
Okay, the next level in the, "Root of It" thread...
Will the souls of the wicked (unbelievers) be raised? AND Does this indicate that a man has a living soul of an eternal nature? Please explain your answer. The Lord bless all of you.
solo wrote:
Now, I have seen some say that the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus did not actually happen, but solo's point is accurate. Christ does not mix lies in with the truth, as the spirit of the antichrist does (1 John 2:20), and the pictures that are painted with such parables are probably more true that we can really even realize. So, would Jesus say phrases like..."And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments.." OR "...that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." unless it created a an accurate (TRUTHFUL) picture for our human understanding?
Okay, the next level in the, "Root of It" thread...
Will the souls of the wicked (unbelievers) be raised? AND Does this indicate that a man has a living soul of an eternal nature? Please explain your answer. The Lord bless all of you.
Drew
Member
I find it difficult to imagine how this could be a valid argument. It seems to use the "Jesus would not lie" truth (which none of us would dispute) tolovely said:
draw the conclusion that everything that Jesus would say must be true in a literal sense. I assume that no one would be willing to defend that position, given the clearly allegorical nature of his teaching elsewhere (e.g. the other parables).
Is this what you are really saying lovely?
Gabbylittleangel
Member
My understanding of the root of it.
We are made up of body, soul, and spirit.
Adam was created in the image of God. When Adam sinned, he died spiritually. This is the reason that Jesus said that we must be born again. Spiritually.
I expect to be challenged on this. We are not created in the image of God. We are created in the image of Adam. Body and soul. With a dead spirit.
When we are born again we are body- soul-with a new spirit. The Holy Spirit of God enters into us. The same Spirit that was breathed into the dust of the earth when Adam was formed. The same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. We, who were created in the image of Adam, not the image of God, are told to conform to the image of Christ.
The man that is born again, and has the Spirit of God, has their name written in the Book of Life, are bought with the blood of Jesus Christ, and have eternal life. The Lord has gone to prepare a place for us.
The man that is not born again, is body and soul. The soul being the thing that departs from the body at death. The man who dies without Christ, dies without having ever received a living spirit. The soul when it departs from the body, enters into eternity apart from God.
We are made up of body, soul, and spirit.
Adam was created in the image of God. When Adam sinned, he died spiritually. This is the reason that Jesus said that we must be born again. Spiritually.
I expect to be challenged on this. We are not created in the image of God. We are created in the image of Adam. Body and soul. With a dead spirit.
When we are born again we are body- soul-with a new spirit. The Holy Spirit of God enters into us. The same Spirit that was breathed into the dust of the earth when Adam was formed. The same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. We, who were created in the image of Adam, not the image of God, are told to conform to the image of Christ.
The man that is born again, and has the Spirit of God, has their name written in the Book of Life, are bought with the blood of Jesus Christ, and have eternal life. The Lord has gone to prepare a place for us.
The man that is not born again, is body and soul. The soul being the thing that departs from the body at death. The man who dies without Christ, dies without having ever received a living spirit. The soul when it departs from the body, enters into eternity apart from God.
Gabbylittleangel
Member
Solo said:
Amen
lovely
Member
Hi Drew,
Drew wrote:
I am saying, that if one does not believe the parable to be a literal event, can they still deny the picture of Hell that Jesus paints? Is the Pictoral Truth of the parable deniable? If so, then I think it would be best to say that one does not believe the parable at all...in literal Truth, or allegorical Truth. I would say that the allegory teaches that Hell is real.
I hope that cleared it up, the Lord bless you.
Drew wrote:
I am saying, that if one does not believe the parable to be a literal event, can they still deny the picture of Hell that Jesus paints? Is the Pictoral Truth of the parable deniable? If so, then I think it would be best to say that one does not believe the parable at all...in literal Truth, or allegorical Truth. I would say that the allegory teaches that Hell is real.
I hope that cleared it up, the Lord bless you.
Drew
Member
This is simply an incorrect and misleading characterization (maybe not intentional, but wrong nonetheless).
The way this "argument" is being used is to basically say that the Lazarus / rich man account must be literal because "Jesus never paints a picture using lies depicting truth".
This does not work - we know that Jesus spoke non-literally at times (e.g. in the parable of the sower). In order to make the case that the Lazarus / rich man tale is not a parable, other kinds of arguments need to be used.
To say that say that the Lazarus / rich man account must be literal because "Jesus never paints a picture using lies depicting truth" is equivalent to suggesting that to use allegory is to lie. And this is clearly not true. Jesus used allegory on many occasions.
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
In all fairness to others on this forum, the question of the OP HAS already been put forward several times already. The problem with this question is that unless one says "Yes, humans DO have an immortal soul (the common belief of mainstream Christianity)" they will be assigned to the ranks of the 'cult'. The question is slanted toward the "yes" response from the start. Whoever may be brave enough to say "No, humans do NOT have an immortal soul" will be regarded with suspicion (and fought against) from then on. It's a 'no win' situation for the "Nos".
And, the parable of the Rich Man & Lazarus has been explained SO MANY times previously that it should make one realize by now how people will only hear what they WANT to hear. As long as Christians have no understanding of what that parable is all about (but they THINK they know what that parable is all about) we will be at loggerheads over this issue until the cows come home. The parable of the Rich Man & Lazarus does NOT concern itself with the 'state' of the lost. It's a parable that has a greater meaning than that most Christians want to give it.
This topic, as with many others, brings out the ignorance in so many. The old adage, 'ignorance is bliss', certainly applies to much of mainstream Christian teaching. Unless one conforms to traditional (but often erroneous) thinking (much of which comes from RCC theology), then one is doomed to failure as soon as they open their mouths (or tap away at their keyboards). What is the point of discussion as long as the discussion is slanted in favor of the one thought?
By the way, humans DO NOT have an immortal soul. Adam BECAME a living soul (a human being) and the soul that sins will die.
And, the parable of the Rich Man & Lazarus has been explained SO MANY times previously that it should make one realize by now how people will only hear what they WANT to hear. As long as Christians have no understanding of what that parable is all about (but they THINK they know what that parable is all about) we will be at loggerheads over this issue until the cows come home. The parable of the Rich Man & Lazarus does NOT concern itself with the 'state' of the lost. It's a parable that has a greater meaning than that most Christians want to give it.
This topic, as with many others, brings out the ignorance in so many. The old adage, 'ignorance is bliss', certainly applies to much of mainstream Christian teaching. Unless one conforms to traditional (but often erroneous) thinking (much of which comes from RCC theology), then one is doomed to failure as soon as they open their mouths (or tap away at their keyboards). What is the point of discussion as long as the discussion is slanted in favor of the one thought?
By the way, humans DO NOT have an immortal soul. Adam BECAME a living soul (a human being) and the soul that sins will die.
S
Solo
Guest
What happened to the rich man's soul and Lazarus' soul after they died and were buried according to Jesus?SputnikBoy said:
Jesus teaches that after the body is dead and buried, the souls of the rich man and Lazarus continue to live in one of two places. Both are conscious, and both recognize their surroundings and have feelings, so what condition are they in after their bodies are dead and buried?