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The Root of It

Hi Gabby:

I searched this entire thread and the most substantive material that I have seen from you is this:

We are made up of body, soul, and spirit.

Adam was created in the image of God. When Adam sinned, he died spiritually. This is the reason that Jesus said that we must be born again. Spiritually.

I expect to be challenged on this. We are not created in the image of God. We are created in the image of Adam. Body and soul. With a dead spirit.

When we are born again we are body- soul-with a new spirit. The Holy Spirit of God enters into us. The same Spirit that was breathed into the dust of the earth when Adam was formed. The same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. We, who were created in the image of Adam, not the image of God, are told to conform to the image of Christ.

The man that is born again, and has the Spirit of God, has their name written in the Book of Life, are bought with the blood of Jesus Christ, and have eternal life. The Lord has gone to prepare a place for us.

The man that is not born again, is body and soul. The soul being the thing that departs from the body at death. The man who dies without Christ, dies without having ever received a living spirit. The soul when it departs from the body, enters into eternity apart from God
I am sorry that you are offended, but this is merely the statement of a position, not a real kind of argument.

If you are going to enter the debate and use expressions like "those who have been attempting to twist the Word", unfortunately you then become fair game to be called on the content of your argument. And a search of this thread shows that there really is nothing except a statement of a position.

As for rudeness, suggesting that we are distorting the word seems rude to me.

Your "Amen" to Atonement implication that we are "true fools" is another example of rude behaviour, by association.
 
Drew said:
Hi Gabby:

I searched this entire thread and the most substantive material that I have seen from you is this....
....I am sorry that you are offended, but this is merely the statement of a position, not a real kind of argument.

If you are going to enter the debate and use expressions like "those who have been attempting to twist the Word", unfortunately you then become fair game to be called on the content of your argument. And a search of this thread shows that there really is nothing except a statement of a position.

As for rudeness, suggesting that we are distorting the word seems rude to me.

Your "Amen" to Atonement implication that we are "true fools" is another example of rude behaviour, by association.

Go to the profile section of the forum and research all of my post. There are many many many threads on the same topic here. I have not suddenly entered into the debate, as you suggested. I have been around a while.
 
Gabbylittleangel said:
Disagree with my beliefs on the doctrine if you want, but please don't talk down to me again, and certainly do not pretend to have some authority over my being allowed to post here. It's rude. It is childish. It is not Christlike.

Atonement says, those who debate lovely's post are "true fools". You say "AMEN" and add your rhetoric of wicked people and unbelievers.

Do unto others as you want done unto you. Disagree with our beliefs on the doctrine if you want, but please don't talk down to us. We have so far NOT called you fools, children of the devil, wicked NOR have we quoted scripture suggesting that you are unbelievers. Please understand for you to do such is rude, childish and is not Christlike. Learn to give what you are asking for, then you can cry foul about not receiving it.
 
For Gabby.

We are made up of body, soul, and spirit.

The errorTraditional Christian doctrine has been very unhelpful in giving us a biblical understanding of personhood, it has usually presented one of two views as being the correct way of defining the components of human being. They have been as follows:-
• Tripartite
This is the view that the human individual is composed of three components; 'the body', 'the soul' and 'the spirit'. This fails to take a whole biblical picture, and bases itself upon a misinterpretation of two verses:-
'May the God of peace himself sanctify you entirely;
and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless
at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ'
[ITh 5:23]
'Indeed, the word of God is living and active,
sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul from spirit,
joints from marrow;
it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart'.
[Heb4:12]
In context these statements are clearly the rhetorical words of a preacher, they are not foundational theological statements. They must be interpreted against the broad biblical background of statements about personhood; and not it against them.
• Bipartite
This is the view that the human individual is composed of two components; 'the body' and 'the soul', with the 'spirit' being the quintessence of the 'soul'.
Neither of these two views are satisfactory, because:-• they create the impression that the human person is comprised of three [or two] quite distinct elements [like a Neapolitan ice cream!], rather than a totality.
• they do not do justice to the range of biblical vocabulary with the variety of senses in which it is used.
• they are influenced by Greek philosophy rather than by Jewish thought; the words of the New Testament have too frequently been filled with concepts from Greek speculation while the Hebrew ideas they are translating have been forgotten.
• to imagine 'body', 'soul' and 'spirit' as distinct entities is to fundamentally misunderstand the biblical concepts.
• in ITh 5:23 the verb and adjective are both singular; the implication is 'keep the whole of you', not 'parts' of you.
• in Heb 4:12 the implication is to 'permeate every dimension' of a person, not separating 'parts'..
• neither of the models give any direct mention to the 'heart' which is a key biblical concept.Bearing these facts in mind we must now attempt to resolve our thinking about the riddle of human nature by looking more closely at the way in which the biblical words are used.
The key
The Bible leads us towards an understanding of our personhood in its totality by approaching it in terms of our physical body. To the Hebrew mind 'personality' resulted from an 'animated body', it was not, as the Greeks thought, an 'incarnated soul'. The important biblical truth is that a person does not have a body they are a body. The Hebrews never thought about the body in isolation and for its own sake, they were only interested in the whole person and their relationship with God.
So the Bible sees the human body as the pathway into the whole person; it sees the physical body as the medium of an individuals personal life. Added to this, an organic and inseparable connection is seen between the physical and the spiritual dimensions of a person. As a result we see that various physical organs are spoken of as being connected with particular aspects of inner feelings and spiritual experience [eg breath, blood, heart, liver, kidneys, bowels etc]. In fact, at first sight, one could be forgiven for imagining that each individual person is composed of a number of unrelated and isolated centres of inner activity, seemingly independent of any unifying factor. Nothing, in fact, could be further from the truth; and understanding this paradox is in fact the essential key to understanding biblical anthropology.
The key to the biblical doctrine of personhood is understanding that the Hebrew mind saw no contrast or distinction between the 'one' and the 'many', the 'whole' and the 'part'. This results in two fundamental conclusions upon which everything else is built>
• the human person is a unity; a physical and spiritual totality which is an indivisible whole.
• the whole may be represented and seen in each particular part. At
any moment any part can stand for the whole person. It is interesting to note that the Hebrew scriptures mention some 80 parts of the human body, and yet, as we shall see, there is no single word for the 'whole'; almost any part can be used to represent the whole.
So in studying biblical anthropology we are presented with personhood as a totality and a whole; an indivisible unity. What the nature and substance of that unity is, is illuminated by a wealth of pictures which have their root in physical organs and observable phenomena from which they provide a 'bridge' into the spiritual depths of human personality:-
• each picture gives a vivid description of some aspect of the inner spiritual processes of personhood.
• each picture serves as a window into the whole person.
• each picture represents the whole person from a particular point of view.
Putting all the pictures together we have a series of windows each looking in on personhood as a whole, but highlighting different aspects of our unity from different perspectives. Imagine a free standing room with a window in each of the four walls and one in the ceiling; looking through each window gives you a view of the whole room, but each window also gives you a unique perspective on the whole room. The same is true of each of the biblical words.
The teaching of the Bible about personhood is profound. At first sight its approach may appear naive, but on examination we discover a treasury of pictures which interlock with one another in the most complex manner. Their variety of emphasis and colour, their subtle nuances in sense and feeling, all express deep truths about a person as a spiritual being.
The New Testament naturally builds from its Hebrew foundations. While it makes no clearer dogmatic statements than the Hebrew Bible, it does provide a centre around which all the fluid Hebrew ideas can arrange themselves - this is the personality of Jesus.



Adam was created in the image of God. When Adam sinned, he died spiritually. This is the reason that Jesus said that we must be born again. Spiritually.

I expect to be challenged on this. We are not created in the image of God. We are created in the image of Adam. Body and soul. With a dead spirit.
Spiritually dead and 'dead spirit are 2 seperate ideas.

Non Believers can have their spirit hardened so all must have a spirit.

DT 2:30

30 But Sihon king of Heshbon refused to let us pass through. For the LORD your God had made his spirit stubborn and his heart obstinate in order to give him into your hands, as he has now done.


When we are born again we are body- soul-with a new spirit. The Holy Spirit of God enters into us. The same Spirit that was breathed into the dust of the earth when Adam was formed. The same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. We, who were created in the image of Adam, not the image of God, are told to conform to the image of Christ.

The man that is born again, and has the Spirit of God, has their name written in the Book of Life, are bought with the blood of Jesus Christ, and have eternal life. The Lord has gone to prepare a place for us.

The man that is not born again, is body and soul. The soul being the thing that departs from the body at death. The man who dies without Christ, dies without having ever received a living spirit. The soul when it departs from the body, enters into eternity apart from God

That last paragraph is not supported anywhere in Scripture.

All are resurrected and called to account before the throne of God then those who are in the book of life will be in the New Jerusalem and those who are not will be destroyed in the lake of Fire. That is the 2nd death.
 
Drew said:
Your "Amen" to Atonement implication that we are "true fools" is another example of rude behaviour, by association.

TanNinety said:
Atonement says, those who debate lovely's post are "true fools". You say "AMEN" and add your rhetoric of wicked people and unbelievers.

Do unto others as you want done unto you. Disagree with our beliefs on the doctrine if you want, but please don't talk down to us. We have so far NOT called you fools, children of the devil, wicked NOR have we quoted scripture suggesting that you are unbelievers. Please understand for you to do such is rude, childish and is not Christlike. Learn to give what you are asking for, then you can cry foul about not receiving it.


My apologies to you both, or all who felt their toes have been stepped on.
My "Amen" was added to compliment the use of Scripture and doctrine. Not to enforce the term 'true fools'.

I would like to encourage those the believers in the forum to be a bit more Christlike in their posts.

Atone,
If those who disagree with some aspect of Scripture never, ever come into agreement on the things debated here, yet have accepted Jesus Christ as their Saviour, repented of their sin and are born again...then it is up to you to accept them as such.

Even if these who are posting a different understanding of Scripture were in fact non-christians, children of the devil, or true fools, it would do absolutely no good to say so.
Pro 17:10 A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool.
It would profit nothing to bring them to the knowledge of the truth of hell and not bring them to the knowledge of the truth of the cross. One does not need to believe in hell to go there. Believing in it, will keep no one out.


My prayer this afternoon is that the Lord will get a hold of all of the people that post on this forum and do a cleansing work in our hearts. The bottom line on this doctrine has to be that both sides can not be right. What would happen if we spent as much time praying for the others as we do debating them?

Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth...Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
 
Gabby:

I deeply appreciate your last post and I will look to follow your example of humility and proper perspective. I am among those who have, at times, not taken the Christlike path.

Blessings

Drew
 
Snippets of interest :)

Part 1:
Resurrection according to Job:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God

Job says after the worms destroy his body, he will once again see God in his flesh. A physical bodily resurrection.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

We need to decide what everlasting contempt is.
Agree with your Part 1.


Part 2:
Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The chaff is said to “burn up†a completion of process is being suggested, don’t you think and not eternal “burningâ€Â? And lets say there was a report that read, “Michael Schumacher won the race with his unstoppable speedâ€Â. Now do we conclude since his speed is unstoppable that he is still speeding? Or based on the context of “winning the race†that he sped his way through the race to a victory and is not speeding anymore?
Similarly, unquenchable fire, do we say it burns for ever because it’s unquenchable? Or do we need to conclude based on the context of “burn up†the chaff that it accomplished its purpose? Unquenchable to me is defining the quality of the fire not the quantity.

Agree with your Part 2.

Part 3: Spiritual Death

John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

I have to ask a question here. Can something die that which isn’t alive in the first place?. Let me show you the reason why I ask this.

We are talking about spiritual death. Now Jesus said one has to be born again which you have a equated with spiritual birth (that which is born of the spirit is spirit) to enter into heaven. People who are not born again(wicked) i.e., who are never made spiritually born never get this chance to be spiritually dead. See the implication? The only people who have a chance to taste this spiritual death are the ones who are spiritually born again instead of just the physical birth!

lovely said:
John points out that evidence of this life (which is obviously not physical) is the love of my brethren.
Exactly, to who is this life that John points out is given to? The wicked never get this spiritual life, coz they never were born again as Jesus explained to Nicodemus. Now all they have is physical life and that will perish as explained in John 3:16

I have already passed from death to life. (these are spiritual terms, because I am already physically living) John is saying that I have passed from death spiritually, where I began because of Adam and Eve, unto life spiritually, where I am because of the atoning blood of Christ.
See, the wicked never got to pass from death unto life spiritually because they were never born again from the spirit. Your spiritual birth is what gives you your eternal life with God.

You see the resurrection of the wicked is entirely physical, and when they are thrown into the lake of fire, they enter it with their physical bodies.

In conclusion my thoughts on this would be, how can the wicked that were never spiritually born die spiritually? Death is not mere absence of birth, but the opposite of birth. So, for someone to die spiritually according to the scripture you have put forth, one has to be spiritually born first.

Consider these things prayerfully with guidance from God and I pray He lead us to His truth.

Gabby, I apologize if I misunderstood your "AMEN". I agree entirely with your last post. I pray for me to have the same humility that you have displayed in your post.
 
Hi Tan, and others...

I have been studying this topic for quite a while, but God has allowed me some time in the past week to really look over some things in great detail. I do not have them in a workable format to share today, but I hope to within the next few.

Tan, I think your questions are VERY valid, and I have been trying to re-ask such things myself as I go along in Scripture. I appreciate the sharpening from you, guibox, and Drew...as well as others, btw...even if we do not agree in the end at this point. I also appreciate everyone's patient read of my posts up to this point, and for the participation in this thread. I also do not want to forget guibox's word study, because it seems very important to what we are talking about as well...though it's not my primary authority, or focus.

Anyway, this may be a bit of an excuse for not having this together already...especially 1 Corinthians 15...but I think I am going to be able to come to a summary conclusion again for myself, with many new Truths added, and for this thread. My real excuse is my primary ministry is my home, my husband, my children, and my hospitality to friends and neighbors....the work of it unto the Lord, I mean.

Please say a prayer, if you think of me, that I will be able to really be open to the Spirit as I continue to study, and put my thoughts into format. I admit my weakness in this area, and openly as God for the strength to glorify Him. The Lord bless all of you today.
 
lovely said:
Please say a prayer, if you think of me, that I will be able to really be open to the Spirit as I continue to study, and put my thoughts into format. I admit my weakness in this area, and openly as God for the strength to glorify Him. The Lord bless all of you today.

And for us as well, lovely. Thank you for your openness to discuss rationally (unlike the rest of the orthodox crew here) and for your willingness to consider other viewpoints.

Soon, I am going to start a thread in the 'Bible Study' section and repost it in the 'Apologetics and Theology' section on an exegetical study on the resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15. I pray that the Spirit will speak to your heart as you study and see what the context is saying and how extremely important the resurrection to eternal life was for Paul and others throughout the rest of the NT.

God bless.

guibox
 
lovely said:
btw...even if we do not agree in the end at this point.
I am perfectly fine with agreeing to disagree. We are all a work in progress. If we trust in God, He will bring us into unity of the spirit. He will end up walking me to your way of thinking or you mine, eventually we will end up at His truth.
I do not claim in any way that I am holding the truth of the scripture. I only present what has been revealed to me from scripture with much prayer.

My real excuse is my primary ministry is my home, my husband, my children, and my hospitality to friends and neighbors....the work of it unto the Lord, I mean.
Knowing what I can discern of you from your posts, sister, you are a blessing to the ones around you. I pray that the Lord strengthen you in the fruits of your spirit.
 
Preview of what God's judgments are like.
Obadiah 1:15 "The day is near when I, the Lord, will judge the godless nations! As you have done to Israel, so it will be done to you. All your evil deeds will fall back on your own heads. 16 Just as you swallowed up my people on my holy mountain, so you and the surrounding nations will swallow the punishment I pour out on you. Yes, you nations will drink and stagger and disappear from history, as though you had never even existed.17 "But Jerusalem will become a refuge for those who escape; it will be a holy place. And the people of Israel will come back to reclaim their inheritance.

lovely, I was reading along the "bible study" forum and came across the above scripture being quoted from John the Baptist. Read the above scripture in conjunction with, Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell". Jesus was not making a mere threat about the destruction of the soul, but declaring what the judgment of our God is going to be.

For if I say to someone, "you will disappear from history, as though you had never even existed", you can say that I can kill them but they might enjoy their existence in an afterlife. But for God to say that "you will be as though you have never existed", this leaves no room for any kind of existence, physical, soulish or spiritual. God's way of judgment has never changed since Sodom and Gomorrah. Just the way the cities saw destruction from fire eternal, so will the wicked taste death and total destruction from unquenchable fire.

God is not in the unfinished business, His righteous judgments are complete, hence you are not able to take a vacation in Sodom and Gomorrah to this day.

As for the wicked I believe as scripture says "they will be no more ..neither root nor branch shall remain".
 
lovely said:
Romans 6 speaks to being dead to sin, and alive to God now. It's a call to obedience for the regenerate. Ezekiel 36:26 " A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. " Christ's death, and resurrection, are being used to illustrate the dead man dying to sin, and being raised again into spiritual life, and walking in life while still being in the flesh.
Those who are ALIVE here spiritually will be physically resurrected and ALIVE spiritually for all eternity finally free from the sinful flesh....these will be given a new glorified body that is free from sin. They will be free in body, and in spirit. LIFE! (God's Pardon)

Here is a quote from Revelation scholar Jon Paulien on this idea of being 'spiritually alive or 'spiritually dead'. I find it very telling.

More telling is Paul's use of the same two words (physical-psychikos/spiritual-pneumatikos) in the same epistle: "The unspiritual [physical-psychikos] man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.  The spiritual [pneumatikos] man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one" (1 Cor 2:14-15).
 
            It is obvious that the spiritual man in this passage is not a nonphysical person.  Rather, it is someone who is guided by the Holy Spirit, in contradistinction from someone who is guided by natural impulses.  Similarly, the present physical body described in 1 Corinthians 15:44 is one which is subject to the law of sin and death, while the future resurrection body is one which will be directed by the Holy Spirit. The resurrection body is called "spiritual" because it is ruled not by carnal impulses but by the Holy Spirit. This is not an anthropological dualism between "physical-psyche" and "spiritual-pneuma," but a moral distinction between a life led by the Holy Spirit and one controlled by sinful desires.
 
            Anthony Hoekema clearly brings out this point:"Spiritual (pneumatikos) here does not mean nonphysical. Rather, it means someone who is guided by the Holy Spirit, at least in principle, in distinction from someone who is guided only by his natural impulses.  In a similar fashion, the natural body described in 1 Corinthians 15:44 is one which is part of this present, sin-cursed existence; but the spiritual body of the resurrection is one which will be totally, not just partially, dominated and directed by the Holy Spirit."
 
             This insight helps us also to understand Paul's statement a few verses later: "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable" (1 Cor 15:50).  It is evident here Paul is not saying that the resurrection body will be nonphysical, because, writing to the Romans, he says: "But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God really dwells in you" (Rom 8:9).
 
            By the phrase "not in the flesh" Paul obviously did not mean that Christians who were led by the Holy Spirit already had discarded their physical bodies.  Rather, he means that already in the present life they were guided by spiritual and not worldly values (Rom 8:4-8).  If Paul could speak of Christians as not being "in the flesh," already in the present life, his reference to the absence of "flesh and blood" in the Kingdom of God cannot mean the absence of physical bodies.  It simply means the absence of the natural, carnal limitations and sinful inclinations of the present life because the redeemed will be led fully by the Spirit.
 
            G. C. Berkouwer insightfully explains that "the 'spiritual body' does not have to do with what we sometimes call 'spiritualizing.'  'Spiritualizing' always presupposes a dualism, which in turns carries with it a devaluation of the body, which is nowhere to be found in Paul's teachings.  He speaks of the body as 'controlled by the pneuma [Spirit].' This Spirit is already at work within man's body, but only in the resurrection will it completely rule man's life. . . . This transition does not disqualify the body, but it does indicate a break.  This break is not between the lostness of the body and the soul's liberation from it, for the Spirit of God already lives within man's concrete earthly existence."18 Berkouwer continues explaining that the break will be between perishable and imperishable bodies.19
 
Hi everyone,

Pardon my silence, I am still studying this topic. I will get back when I am able. Guibox, thanks for the post. I am considering all that I read here, and am just Trusting God to teach me. I have been reading the other threads as well. Just wanted to explain my silence on this topic. The Lord bless all of you.
 
Hi everyone,

I know I have been silent on this topic for a bit, mostly because I was going through other things, and could not focus on the study for a bit. I still do not have time for intense study, but time enough for the tidbit here, and there, as I still ponder the topic.

So, a few nights ago my husband read some passages to my oldest son and I before bed.

Acts 7, specifically. This is the stoning of Stephen, which always causes many emotions to surface in me...I always thought that if I could be most like anyone, Stephen does come to mind.

Anyway, I don't want to shift the topic too much, but this is still related. I just didn't want to open another thread on the matter, to be honest.

Acts 7:55-60
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep
.


It seems here that Stephen was trusting that his spirit would be received by Christ Jesus right away...any thoughts?
 
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