The Royal "We" of Genesis

[John Zain]

God = Father = Son = Holy Spirit = God. Does anyone have a testimony they can share about any divine revelation or word of knowledge they can share to shed some light on this?

When my mother-in-law was having her 4th and last child, she died and went to Heaven and met Jesus.
He told her she could either stay there, or return to earth and take care of her 4 children.
About 45 years ago, she chose to return here.
Hope this helps.

 

[Ashua]

In presenting this verse, are you interpreting this in another way than to say that we are only able to be brought to faith by the power of the Holy Spirit? Until a person opens their heart to the Holy Spirit, the Truth is folly to him/her? That's how I interpret it.

No I am not. I'm not going to comment on whether or not the Holy Spirit's election is absolute or not. That isn't one of the areas I feel best about in understanding. I am just saying that the verse escaped me in my earlier post when I posted the other one about how "whosoever confesses that Jesus is the son of God" is of God.

I'm saying it is impossible to say Jesus is the son of God except the Holy Spirit puts it in the person to say it.

 

[Sissy]

I'm saying it is impossible to say Jesus is the son of God except the Holy Spirit puts it in the person to say it.

Even devils and unclean spirits say Jesus is the son of God.


Matthew 8
(28) And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
(29) And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?



Mark 3
(11) And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.


Luke 4
(41) And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

 

[theLords]

Even devils and unclean spirits say Jesus is the son of God.


Matthew 8
(28) And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
(29) And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?



Mark 3
(11) And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.


Luke 4
(41) And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

I think semantics may be coming into play here. I think Ashua meant to say that no one can say Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit as his previous post shows.

Meh this is the one I was thinking of earlier but couldn't quite get it out of my head onto text..

Better late than never:


Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. -1st Corinthians 12:3

But for a Christian who believes Jesus is Lord and Jesus is the Son of God, I see how both titles are interchangeable for the believer :D

 

[Sissy]

Hey Mike.

Let me start by agreeing with what you said about it not exactly being a core tenet.

I am in agreement with this.

No matter what your belief of "ONE" actually means is not a salvation issue.

James 2
(19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
​

But it did thrill my soul to see Mike proclaim that Jesus is God!
Nothing thrills me more than to hear one proclaim this.

I would go even a step further, and say that Jesus (the Son) is YHWH.



YHWH is the only savior which is Christ.

Isaiah 43
(11) I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Acts 4
(10) Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
(11) This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
(12) Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

2 Peter 3
(18) But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.




YHWH is the only rock which is Christ.

2 Samuel 22
(2) And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;

1 Corinthians 10
(4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.




YHWH is the first and the last which is Christ.

Isaiah 44
(6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Revelation 1
(17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:


YHWH is the one who will be seen pierced which is Christ.

Zechariah 12
(10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


John 19
(36) For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
(37) And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.


Revelation 1
(7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.




Sooooo, whether one wants to view the "ONE" as 3 separate "persons", or "manifestations", or whatever ...... it is inescapable to at least recognize Jesus as YHWH.

 

[cyberjosh]

I am in agreement with this.

No matter what your belief of "ONE" actually means is not a salvation issue.

James 2
(19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
​

But it did thrill my soul to see Mike proclaim that Jesus is God!
Nothing thrills me more than to hear one proclaim this.

I would go even a step further, and say that Jesus (the Son) is YHWH.



YHWH is the only savior which is Christ.

Isaiah 43
(11) I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Acts 4
(10) Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
(11) This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
(12) Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

2 Peter 3
(18) But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.




YHWH is the only rock which is Christ.

2 Samuel 22
(2) And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;

1 Corinthians 10
(4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.




YHWH is the first and the last which is Christ.

Isaiah 44
(6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Revelation 1
(17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:


YHWH is the one who will be seen pierced which is Christ.

Zechariah 12
(10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


John 19
(36) For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
(37) And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.


Revelation 1
(7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.




Sooooo, whether one wants to view the "ONE" as 3 separate "persons", or "manifestations", or whatever ...... it is inescapable to at least recognize Jesus as YHWH.

I'm not trying to start a trinity discussion, because I don't think this is the place, but I would say that this was also the theologian Lewis Sperry Chafer's view, that YHWH and Jesus are one and the same. I however have not been entirely convinced because there are also verses just as much in the OT which distinguish the Son from YHWH. One pointed example was when YHWH told Moses that he would send another prophet like him ('him' being Moses), and that he (Jesus - the prophet) would come in My (YHWH's) name. If you read the passage closely you can see a clear distinction between the prophet (the Son) whom YHWH is sending in His name and YHWH himself. This distinction, and claim to be "coming in the name of" as a representative of someone else, is the same one that Jesus makes between himself and his Father, coming in His Father's name, yet seperate from the Father (though in the Trinity so close that if one has seen Jesus he has also seen the Father). I think YHWH reflects the Father, and that any close associations of Jesus with YHWH lies in the fact of the mystery of the Trinity and how the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are sometimes indistinguishable within the Trinity. This however is my opinion, based on studies I've done in the past.



God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Sissy]

For the record, I am not one who views the Son and the Father as being the same personality.

My main point was that it is an inescapable conclusion as to whether the Son (Jesus) is YHWH.

I think it is also inescapable that the Father is YHWH.

My post may have been misunderstood as to appear I was claiming that ONLY Jesus was YHWH.
I wasn't.

 

[glorydaz]

This has been a great thread. It's been such a blessing reading all your thoughts on this wonderful mystery of God. We can never get enough of our wonderful Creator/Saviour, can we? "A deeper walk with Thee"

I'd just like to share Young's translation of this verse in Hebrews.

3who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might -- through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest,

 

[Ashua]

Even devils and unclean spirits say Jesus is the son of God.


Matthew 8
(28) And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
(29) And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?



Mark 3
(11) And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.


Luke 4
(41) And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. -1st Corinthians 12:3

How many "men" --not demons or devils or spirits can you think of who have declared Yeshua as the Lord and were not under the Holy Spirit?

The devils confess that he is who he is because they KNOW through seeing and their witnessed knowledge from the foundation of the world.

We confess by the working of the Holy Spirit in us not by seeing, but rather by faith and faith comes by hearing the Word of God.


Don't think I'm trying to pick on you, but this is what I meant in the other thread by scriptures properly interpreted do not create contradictions. You pitted a bunch of verses against the verse I posted.

If we take a step back everyone here accepts the one I posted and the ones you posted as God breathed. Why then the contradiction? Because of interpretation. If we read it for what it says (no man) and not ( no living being or entity), then all of those verses agree. Thus the interpretation is more likely to be correct if not confirmed outright. --If not confirmed it can be narrowed down to an assemblage of possibilities, but so then we can also eliminate other interpretations.

 

[Sissy]

I had a pretty good grip on what you were relaying, and I was not disagreeing.
Just didn't want folks to get the impression that it was talking about just "saying it with the mouth", because, well, anyone can just "say" the words from their mouth.

 

[Elijah674]

For the record, I am not one who views the Son and the Father as being the same personality.

My main point was that it is an inescapable conclusion as to whether the Son (Jesus) is YHWH.

I think it is also inescapable that the Father is YHWH.

My post may have been misunderstood as to appear I was claiming that ONLY Jesus was YHWH.
I wasn't.

In 2 Tim. 3:16 we see 'Doctrine' used. And the 'WE' in the Gen. thread includes the ALL of scripture is appears? (OT) So, seeing that John lived up into Rev. AD 96 & penned much Truth, (manny 'Inspired' Books) I would like to see some BIBICAL comment on his Inspired 2 John verses.

[9] Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
[10] If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
[11] For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Is it possible that John did not know the Rev. 14:6 Eternal Gospel of his penned MERCY SEAT, or the 'WE' as the 'individual' usage of the Holy Spirit as [HE] from Christ's Word of his (John's) own pen as seen in John 16 of the several 'personal' HE that Christ used there?

And the Doctrine of Christ is not an Salvational issue to be important for SALVATION????

I don't buy into that unless these ones are babes, or had died as such. I do not think that these of Dan. 12:4 or Hosea 4:6 who will be living when Christ comes, will be babes. And to teach such??? Is beyond me! Rev. 18:4's partaker finds them just as inmature.

--Elijah