The Royal "We" of Genesis

[Ashua]

My beliefs regarding the "tinity" -
I do not subscribe to it... based on what the bible has taught me.

Its clear to me that, God "the father" controls the spirit and sent Jesus to carry out a mission. The "Father" does not need a team to have his will done. The holy spirit and Jesus are agents of God. And God has made it clear that He is one and there is none like Him. Besides, Jesus himself prayed to God, preached that God alone is to be worshipped, asked to be saved by God... and said these words - "why do you call me good, no one is good but God".

Tell me, how does the above and the peculiar situation of one team member praying to another team member fit in with the "team" analogy?

Once again, I wasn't saying it did. I was explaining a theological concept to a member. I was telling the member what trinitarianism believes. I was not arguing that the Bible talks about a "team" I was trying to explain the concept to someone who didn't know the difference.

You keep posting things which seem to suggest you think I am saying that the Bible says this when all I am doing is defining that doctrine which most christians subscribe to --true or not.

As for me:

13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 16:13-17

Jesus is the Messiah the son of the living God.

The answer was good enough for Peter. Jesus expressed favor to the response. Its good enough for me.

 

[Mike]

Ashua,

Typically, the only time I'm up at this hour is when I'm stuck over night in a hotel on business (can't sleep well in hotels), but tonight, I believe this is what's keeping me up. For many years, I believed that confessing the Trinity and understanding the Triune nature of God was one of the core tenets that defined a Christian.

I've since resolved in my heart that some will never comprehend this Triune nature, and this should not be viewed as a person who is separate from the Body of Christ. (I'm sure my words bring great relief to you. ;) ) But I hold firmly that the Bible in its entirety speaks to this 3-in-1 Divine Nature of God. There are many deep thinking theologians out there, and I can only look upon them in esteem. My faith is more simple to me, but that doesn't mean I strive to always move deeper into scripture and faith in order to understand Who God Is.

I've read this whole thread, and your contrary input stands out to me for some reason. I'm not wanting to give the impression that it strikes a chord of Truth, because honestly, it does not. I don't mean this to insult you, I'm just being honest that I believe strongly that, while Jesus, the H.S., and the Father are One, they are in fact three separate and distinct Persons within the One God.

So, in your oneness understanding of God (and forgive me if I'm taking a step back in the discussion - I'll ratchet it up as we go) you hold that they are not separate, but of One Being which is God. If I were discussing this with someone who didn't believe Jesus to be Fully God, I wouldn't use these scripture verses, because it would only confuse the matter further.

John 17
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

These verses offer a few important distinctions between the Father and the Son, but verse 5 seem to clearly demonstrate that they were distinct before the world began. How can one who holds to oneness reconcile this scripture?

John 14
"You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

He doesn't say, "Since you believe in God, you also believe in Me." He clearly makes a statement and then a separate command.

1. You believe in God the Father.
2. Believe also in Me. In addition to the Father, believe that I am in addition to Him. (since he uses the word "also")

Phil 2
"6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!"

Again, this points toward Jesus being separate and distinct from the Father, though being in the very Nature of Him.

Later upon His resurrection, Jesus says He will send his apostles "a Counselor". The "a" in this is important to me. If He said He would send them "the" counselor, I could understand someone interpreting this to me, God own spirit would be sent as a counselor. But this does not resonate as being of God, but a Spirit separate from the Two.

The Trinity is difficult to get our minds around, but that in no way negates the Truth in it. I'll leave it here, and I'm sure we can proceed deeper as we go. I realize there are many who have joined in this, and I don't expect or ask that you dismiss others in the conversation.

Be blessed.

 

[sk0rpi0n]

Ashua, I understand you used an analogy to expain the trinity to someone. But Im asking you about the validity of the trinity concept itself.

Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the well :

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
-John 4:23

If Jesus understood God as a trinity (which means he is part of it as well) just why didnt he say that "the true worshippers will worship the Father, son and the holy spirit?"....

Is John 4:23 good enough for you?

and then we have this...a few verses later...

v25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah†is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.â€
v26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.â€

Did not Jesus explain everything there? Is that good enough for you?

 

[Ashua]

Ashua,

Typically, the only time I'm up at this hour is when I'm stuck over night in a hotel on business (can't sleep well in hotels), but tonight, I believe this is what's keeping me up. For many years, I believed that confessing the Trinity and understanding the Triune nature of God was one of the core tenets that defined a Christian.

I've since resolved in my heart that some will never comprehend this Triune nature, and this should not be viewed as a person who is separate from the Body of Christ. (I'm sure my words bring great relief to you. ;) ) But I hold firmly that the Bible in its entirety speaks to this 3-in-1 Divine Nature of God. There are many deep thinking theologians out there, and I can only look upon them in esteem. My faith is more simple to me, but that doesn't mean I strive to always move deeper into scripture and faith in order to understand Who God Is.

I've read this whole thread, and your contrary input stands out to me for some reason. I'm not wanting to give the impression that it strikes a chord of Truth, because honestly, it does not. I don't mean this to insult you, I'm just being honest that I believe strongly that, while Jesus, the H.S., and the Father are One, they are in fact three separate and distinct Persons within the One God.

So, in your oneness understanding of God (and forgive me if I'm taking a step back in the discussion - I'll ratchet it up as we go) you hold that they are not separate, but of One Being which is God. If I were discussing this with someone who didn't believe Jesus to be Fully God, I wouldn't use these scripture verses, because it would only confuse the matter further.

John 17
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

These verses offer a few important distinctions between the Father and the Son, but verse 5 seem to clearly demonstrate that they were distinct before the world began. How can one who holds to oneness reconcile this scripture?

John 14
"You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

He doesn't say, "Since you believe in God, you also believe in Me." He clearly makes a statement and then a separate command.

1. You believe in God the Father.
2. Believe also in Me. In addition to the Father, believe that I am in addition to Him. (since he uses the word "also")

Phil 2
"6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!"

Again, this points toward Jesus being separate and distinct from the Father, though being in the very Nature of Him.

Later upon His resurrection, Jesus says He will send his apostles "a Counselor". The "a" in this is important to me. If He said He would send them "the" counselor, I could understand someone interpreting this to me, God own spirit would be sent as a counselor. But this does not resonate as being of God, but a Spirit separate from the Two.

The Trinity is difficult to get our minds around, but that in no way negates the Truth in it. I'll leave it here, and I'm sure we can proceed deeper as we go. I realize there are many who have joined in this, and I don't expect or ask that you dismiss others in the conversation.

Be blessed.

Hey Mike.

Let me start by agreeing with what you said about it not exactly being a core tenet.

Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

You confess that Jesus is the Son of God. God dwells in you.
I confess that Jesus is the Son of God. God dwells in me.

I do "understand" the doctrine of the trinity. Intellectually, it isn't really a problem. I know the whole 1+1+1=1 thing does get to a lot of people, but I can rationalize around that. I just am not convinced that this IS the case by the scriptures. If it is, and I am totally wrong, I pray God will have mercy on me and reprove my thinking even as he did towards Saul of tarsus when he was operating in ignorance.

I will start by saying that I DO believe Jesus IS God tabernacling in the flesh --that is God himself in a vessel of flesh. Jesus is God manifest.

1. “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son.........
Yes, there are verses such as these which do "appear" to be disruptive to oneness theology, even as verses such as the one calling the son the "Everlasting Father" "appears" to conflict with trinitarianism.

And for a token to show that I'm sincere in this, one that I have yet to have the Holy Spirit work out in me is "The LORD said unto my Lord, sit thou at my right hand til I make thine enemies thy footstool."
I would probably link that verse you mentioned with the one about the footstool.

When you read the parts about the transfiguration or Christ described in Revelation... the physical description and the titles given to him... He is glorified. Still, he is given titles such as the first and the last and attributes such as a voice that sounds like many waters --which is ONLY attributed to YHVH of the Old Testament.

In a oneness perspective, I am inclined to think that this "Father.... Glorify the Son" speech was a display to show that Jesus the Son of Man was about to return to the infinitive state of God Almighty which we call "the Father" YHVH in his absolute form. The glory he held in the beginning as the LOGOS. Not flesh.

Once again, I do not necessarily endorse what I just said. I have to search the scriptures more concerning this matter.

The other two dont really say much concerning the trinity.

You believe in God believe also in him being (of) God.
The Philippians verse crossed my mind several times tonight for some reason but all that does is show he IS God in the flesh --not (necessarily) triune.

There are obstacles on both sides to be dealt with.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh,, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God was manifest --the fullness of divinity not just "the son".

Anyways, the important thing is we all seek to know God in spirit and in truth. Dont think I am here to "debate". I'm not here to debate, but to test theology as it were metal and see if the temper holds integrity and thereby edify by scrutiny to see what is Biblical.

 

[Ashua]

Ashua, I understand you used an analogy to expain the trinity to someone. But Im asking you about the validity of the trinity concept itself.

Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the well :

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
-John 4:23

If Jesus understood God as a trinity (which means he is part of it as well) just why didnt he say that "the true worshippers will worship the Father, son and the holy spirit?"....

Is John 4:23 good enough for you?

and then we have this...a few verses later...

v25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah†is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.â€
v26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.â€

Did not Jesus explain everything there? Is that good enough for you?

Yes, we are to call God "our Father who art in Heaven" A major theme of the scriptures is adoption of sons. We are children of God if we are claimed under the covenant of redemption. So, then we are no more servants, but sons. So we call God Father. Jesus is called the Everlasting Father in Isaiah.

 

[theLords]

Mike and Ashua,

So it's almost 4 in the morning here and I can't sleep.

This issue is tearing me up inside.

When I see the doctrine of "Oneness" and then the doctrine of "Trinity," I understand both. I can "see" that each one goes hand in hand. To me the are like mirror images in a sense that they both reflect the nature of the Lord.

Yet, at the same time I've experienced the manifestation of God in a "Trinity" sense. Like I have had several dreams with the Lord.

For example:

In this dream, it begins with me as an adult and Jesus the Son, next I am a little girl searching for God the Father and running into His arms, next I am sitting next to Christ and the Father comes and gives me a gift.

So in this dream, I experienced the Lord independently as Father and Son, yet still recognized the Oneness of the Holy of Holies.

The trouble I'm having with the Trinity is saying that The Father does not equal the Son. To me it's like saying Jesus isn't God. The Lord has revealed to me that He is the Son and the Father.

There is solid evidence in Oneness and the Trinity within the Scriptures. Am I a Trinitarian and is it simply semantics that are getting in my way? There's something about the concept of the Trinity that I seem to simply get.

I think the Lord revealed to me tonight that I had an unbelieving place in my heart in the power of Christ. It's been a struggle because I don't ask the Lord for much because I fear being disappointed. Ashua, when you posted that Jesus is the Father. I felt the words become life within me. It gave me the ability to see Jesus as God the Almighty the Powerful who will answer my prayer requests because He is more than faithful. A seed of faith was sown there.

I truly don't know where I stand. Is it semantics that are causing me trouble with the concept of the Trinity?

I think one of the Lord's greatest gifts to me has been to reveal Himself to me as I've chased after Him.

What He has taught me is:

God = Father = Son = Holy Spirit = God

When I see that:

God = Father ≠ Son ≠ Holy Spirit = God

It seems to go against what the Lord has revealed to me.

Yet at the same time I understand how they can operate independently in this equation: God = Father = Son = Holy Spirit = God

Does anyone have a testimony they can share about any divine revelation or word of knowledge they can share to shed some light on this?

I once heard a testimony (it's in spanish or I would link to it) about a young girl who had a near death experience. (Drugs I think?) She was taken into heaven and she say God the Father sitting on the Throne of Heaven. She saw Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit within God the Father. When she painted her word picture I understood in the same manner as I understand 2+2=4

I don't agree with those that say 1+1+1=1 as it clearly equals 3, But 1x1x1= 3

To me I see that the "Oneness" doctrine abides within the "Trinity" doctrine.

The Trinity makes complete sense to me and so does the Oneness belief.

I don't know. My brain hurts. I think I should sleep and get some rest...

 

[Elijah674]

See if this helps? But remember that the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost has NO Image but is still God. We are told that God is a Spirit. And this is HE as Christ identifies HIM over & over again in John 16 +.
There is nothing created that Christ was not involved in [as God]. (other world's'!) The Gospel is Everlasting as with the Covenant. Everlasting in this context means 'Immortal' with no beginning or ending! Prov. talks about the 'future'! Christ playing as a lad. What was brought 'forth' was the 'plan of salvation'. The GodHead had for/ordained that Christ would become the Son. The PLAN CAME FORTH when it was pre/ordained to be brought forth.

In heaven itself the rebellion started. Lucifer was the covering cherub over the [MERCY SEAT.] (Everlasting Gospel) Under the Mercy Seat was the Ark of God, where in were the Everlasting Covenant. (10 Commandments) The GodHead was not in eternity taken by surprise. They knew that the PLAN OF SALVATION would be required to be BROUGHT FORTH!

Notice in Psalms 2:7 future tense.. "[I will make the decree]: the [Lord hath said unto *me], THOU ART *MY SON; [THIS *DAY HAVE I *BEGOTTEN THEE]." Surely that is clear? But what day in the future is it stated that Christ was begotten??

In Heb. 1:2 we see that .. "Hath in the last days spoken unto us by His Son, (But notice this!) ... by whom also He [MADE THE WORLDS]: (plural)

and in verse 5?? We see Psalms 2:7 is now past/tense! "For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, [THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE?]"

So the GodHead were, & always will be the GODHEAD! God the Son as we know Him became God the Son at conception by the Holy Ghost! See Psalms 139:15-16. It was the PLAN that had its beginning on 'earth', yet never was 'eternity' with out the known plan. OK??

Latest concept of the Godhead of Christ God & what we call the Father God. (Not the Holy Spirit yet)

'This is He that was in the CHURCH in the wilderness..' Acts 7:3 8 '... ignorant ... And drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that ROCK WAS CHRIST.' 1 Cor. 10:1-3 in part. 'Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.' Psalms 80:1

[*NOTICE] 'Jesus Christ the *SAME YESTERDAY, and TODAY, and FOREVER. (Everlasting Gospel & Everlasting Covenant)
Be [NOT CARRIED ABOUT WITH DIVERS AND STRANGE DOCTRINES.'] Hebrews 13:8, 9. This is [the Doctrine of Christ]! Again 2 John 9-11.

'Thou, even Thou, ART LORD ALONE; Thou hast made heaven, the heaven OF HEAVENS, with ALL THEIR HOST, the earth, and ALL THINGS that are therein, ... and Thou Preservest them ALL; and the HOST OF HEAVEN *WORSHIPETH THEE. Nehemiah 9:6

... Moreover THOU leddeth them in the day by a cloudy pillar; and in the night by a pillar of fire, ...Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spaketh with them from heaven, AND GAVETH THEM RIGHT JUDGEMENTS, AND TRUE LAWS, GOOD STATUES *AND COMMANDMENTS. (plural!) AND *MADEST KNOWN UNTO THEM [THY HOLY SABBATH, (No plural!) and commandest them [precepts, statutes, *and laws, (plural) and BY THE HAND OF MOSES thy servant..' Nehemiah 9:12,14. (Deuteronomy 31:9 Moses wrote this law in a book! see following verses Deuteronomy 31:24-26 for their placement in the *side of the Ark)

And note Colossians 1:13-19 "For by Him were CREATED ALL THINGS .... AND HE WAS *BEFORE ALL THINGS ..."

AGAIN DEAR FRIEND, ETERNAL CHRIST GOD, JEHOVAH GOD, HOLY SPIRIT GOD! That IS THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL & THE EVERLASTING COVENANT OF THE ONE GOD, GODHEAD. (yet the Holy Spirit God has not been brought forth in this missive yet, but you can rest assure that He is GOD!)

1 Tim. 1:
[16] Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
[17] Now unto the King [eternal, immortal,] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
​

There is NO satanic doubt cast in these Inspired Words of the Godhead. They are IMMORTAL and there has never been a time when They were not!
Now lets go to the very first part of Their Word to us. We see below where Adam & Eve are to die. And that the tree of life was seen as giving Eternal Life only on CONDITION OF OBEDIENCE.
Yet, of Prime Importance was that ONLY GOD has unconditional Immortality. Pay attention to the Word of 'become 'as' one of US.'


Gen. 3:
[21] Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
(Again, as one of US! Yet, it is documented that only ..so far, that these two are Immortal! Compare Gen. 11:7 for 'US' again, Two Immortal ones!)

[23] Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
[24] So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubim's, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
​

And in Rev. We see that the tree of life will again be restored to the ones who will have Eternal life. They will again eat of thr Tree of Life to be conditionally Immortal. See Nahum 1:9

​

​

 

[Alabaster]

Wait! Wait!

Why does the concept of the Trinity still make sense to me?

Because it is the truth. Don't let the enemy try to rob you of it.

 

[Alabaster]

Yeah, Ive read through this entire thread. I mean to say where in the Bible do we find a verse that is parallel to your "team" analogy? Sure "Father, son and holy spirit" are used in a single sentence once, but it still doesn't undo the tons of other verses where its made clear that God is one... i.e, and not a team of Father, son and holy spirit.

When, Jesus prayed to God... was one part of the "team" praying to another part of the team, asking to be saved, if possible?

Either way, the verses you've quoted just cover the Father and son part of the "team". Where does he holy spirit figure in those verses? The "spirit" has always been shown to be under control of God and not a seperate entity of its own, thats part of a "team".

Matthew 28:19 describes equality of authority:
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

 

[jasoncran]

What you say is irrelevant because Jesus is not the only one referred to as "son of God".

“Enos was the son of Seth, and Seth was the son of Adam, and Adam was the son of God.â€
-Luke 3:38

Jesus required a human mother who herself can be traced back to Adam... the original human who happened without a father or a mother...created DIRECTLY by God.





I dont have a problem. These contradictions show that its a problem within the bible.
Think...why would the bible first establish that God and Jesus are different (as shown in so many verses, including Jesus' own teachings) and then have Jesus make a statement that he is "the alpha and the omega" who created Jesus in Marys womb???

jesus was before abraham he states that plainly before abraham was i was. so he cant be have been created see hebrews 1 it goes into his diety there.

and dont forgot what the LOGOS is and what it did. it was GOD and GOD became Flesh and dwelt among men.

 

[theLords]

See if this helps? But remember that the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost has NO Image but is still God. We are told that God is a Spirit. And this is HE as Christ identifies HIM over & over again in John 16 +.
There is nothing created that Christ was not involved in [as God]. (other world's'!) The Gospel is Everlasting as with the Covenant. Everlasting in this context means 'Immortal' with no beginning or ending! Prov. talks about the 'future'! Christ playing as a lad. What was brought 'forth' was the 'plan of salvation'. The GodHead had for/ordained that Christ would become the Son. The PLAN CAME FORTH when it was pre/ordained to be brought forth.

In heaven itself the rebellion started. Lucifer was the covering cherub over the [MERCY SEAT.] (Everlasting Gospel) Under the Mercy Seat was the Ark of God, where in were the Everlasting Covenant. (10 Commandments) The GodHead was not in eternity taken by surprise. They knew that the PLAN OF SALVATION would be required to be BROUGHT FORTH!

Notice in Psalms 2:7 future tense.. "[I will make the decree]: the [Lord hath said unto *me], THOU ART *MY SON; [THIS *DAY HAVE I *BEGOTTEN THEE]." Surely that is clear? But what day in the future is it stated that Christ was begotten??

In Heb. 1:2 we see that .. "Hath in the last days spoken unto us by His Son, (But notice this!) ... by whom also He [MADE THE WORLDS]: (plural)

and in verse 5?? We see Psalms 2:7 is now past/tense! "For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, [THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE?]"

So the GodHead were, & always will be the GODHEAD! God the Son as we know Him became God the Son at conception by the Holy Ghost! See Psalms 139:15-16. It was the PLAN that had its beginning on 'earth', yet never was 'eternity' with out the known plan. OK??

Latest concept of the Godhead of Christ God & what we call the Father God. (Not the Holy Spirit yet)

'This is He that was in the CHURCH in the wilderness..' Acts 7:3 8 '... ignorant ... And drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that ROCK WAS CHRIST.' 1 Cor. 10:1-3 in part. 'Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.' Psalms 80:1

[*NOTICE] 'Jesus Christ the *SAME YESTERDAY, and TODAY, and FOREVER. (Everlasting Gospel & Everlasting Covenant)
Be [NOT CARRIED ABOUT WITH DIVERS AND STRANGE DOCTRINES.'] Hebrews 13:8, 9. This is [the Doctrine of Christ]! Again 2 John 9-11.

'Thou, even Thou, ART LORD ALONE; Thou hast made heaven, the heaven OF HEAVENS, with ALL THEIR HOST, the earth, and ALL THINGS that are therein, ... and Thou Preservest them ALL; and the HOST OF HEAVEN *WORSHIPETH THEE. Nehemiah 9:6

... Moreover THOU leddeth them in the day by a cloudy pillar; and in the night by a pillar of fire, ...Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spaketh with them from heaven, AND GAVETH THEM RIGHT JUDGEMENTS, AND TRUE LAWS, GOOD STATUES *AND COMMANDMENTS. (plural!) AND *MADEST KNOWN UNTO THEM [THY HOLY SABBATH, (No plural!) and commandest them [precepts, statutes, *and laws, (plural) and BY THE HAND OF MOSES thy servant..' Nehemiah 9:12,14. (Deuteronomy 31:9 Moses wrote this law in a book! see following verses Deuteronomy 31:24-26 for their placement in the *side of the Ark)

And note Colossians 1:13-19 "For by Him were CREATED ALL THINGS .... AND HE WAS *BEFORE ALL THINGS ..."

AGAIN DEAR FRIEND, ETERNAL CHRIST GOD, JEHOVAH GOD, HOLY SPIRIT GOD! That IS THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL & THE EVERLASTING COVENANT OF THE ONE GOD, GODHEAD. (yet the Holy Spirit God has not been brought forth in this missive yet, but you can rest assure that He is GOD!)

1 Tim. 1:
[16] Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
[17] Now unto the King [eternal, immortal,] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
​

There is NO satanic doubt cast in these Inspired Words of the Godhead. They are IMMORTAL and there has never been a time when They were not!
Now lets go to the very first part of Their Word to us. We see below where Adam & Eve are to die. And that the tree of life was seen as giving Eternal Life only on CONDITION OF OBEDIENCE.
Yet, of Prime Importance was that ONLY GOD has unconditional Immortality. Pay attention to the Word of 'become 'as' one of US.'


Gen. 3:
[21] Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
(Again, as one of US! Yet, it is documented that only ..so far, that these two are Immortal! Compare Gen. 11:7 for 'US' again, Two Immortal ones!)

[23] Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
[24] So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubim's, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
​

And in Rev. We see that the tree of life will again be restored to the ones who will have Eternal life. They will again eat of thr Tree of Life to be conditionally Immortal. See Nahum 1:9


​

​

Thank you Elijah! The Lord really ministered to me last night and revealed the Trinity to me with a clearity and cemented this in me in a new and powerful way! I asked Him to take away all of my preconceived ideas and fill me with His Wisdom and He did! I am so blessed to say this :D What a beautiful testimony He has given me. I am beyond grateful :D

Thank you Elijah, Ashua, and Mike

 

[jasoncran]

i didnt help you?

i dreamt of this site last night and this thread.

 

[theLords]

i didnt help you?

i dreamt of this site last night and this thread.

Aw, my dear friend, yes you did! Thank you, thank you, thank you. You ALWAYS help me and I am appreciative of that!

The peace and love of the Lord is resting on me and I feel so giddy, light, and airy. He is so precious and wonderful! What a mighty God we serve :D:D:D

I'll forward you the Testimony I sent to Mike and Ashua. I think you would enjoy reading it!!!

 

[Mike]

Hey Mike.

Let me start by agreeing with what you said about it not exactly being a core tenet.

Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

You confess that Jesus is the Son of God. God dwells in you.
I confess that Jesus is the Son of God. God dwells in me.

Ashua, first, thank you for your response in the spirit you gave it. Too often this topic raises tension, and it doesn't need to be that way. We are "theologians" in that we study God. We want to know Him more and more. This should be very important to any one who loves Him. I love my wife, and this love drove me to want to know everything about her. And as many jokes as there are about husbands tuning out their wives, I still want know who she is as she changes. The good news is that God doesn't change. So, in looking at scripture, we see everything He ever was and will be!

I do "understand" the doctrine of the trinity. Intellectually, it isn't really a problem. I know the whole 1+1+1=1 thing does get to a lot of people, but I can rationalize around that. I just am not convinced that this IS the case by the scriptures. If it is, and I am totally wrong, I pray God will have mercy on me and reprove my thinking even as he did towards Saul of tarsus when he was operating in ignorance.

Do you really understand the nature of the Trinity? Because I hold to it, but the idea that something can be separate but one is hard to fully grasp. As Hank Hanegraaff says, I apprehend it more than I comprehend it. IMO, there is nothing in scripture to say that a person who calls upon Jesus as their Lord and Savior will need to account for their understanding of His nature when they've spent their lives seeking it.

I will start by saying that I DO believe Jesus IS God tabernacling in the flesh --that is God himself in a vessel of flesh. Jesus is God manifest.

1. “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son.........
Yes, there are verses such as these which do "appear" to be disruptive to oneness theology, even as verses such as the one calling the son the "Everlasting Father" "appears" to conflict with trinitarianism.

Well, I can see your argument. But when the Hebrews named people, they did it for a reason, to describe their nature, right. My understanding of Isaiah 9 is that he is describing Jesus. He will be wonderful, the prince of peace, and He will share the eternal characteristics of the Father. These are characteristics of Him. We don't say "in the name of the Wonderful Counselor" or "in the name of the Prince of Peace", etc.

When you read the parts about the transfiguration or Christ described in Revelation... the physical description and the titles given to him... He is glorified. Still, he is given titles such as the first and the last and attributes such as a voice that sounds like many waters --which is ONLY attributed to YHVH of the Old Testament.

In a oneness perspective, I am inclined to think that this "Father.... Glorify the Son" speech was a display to show that Jesus the Son of Man was about to return to the infinitive state of God Almighty which we call "the Father" YHVH in his absolute form. The glory he held in the beginning as the LOGOS. Not flesh.

Ashua, I don't expect that I will change your much deliberated and prayed upon understanding of His nature. But I would hold that the verses you mention only serve to support the nature Jesus shares with the Father while keeping them distinct at the same time. Jesus, the Father, the Holy Spirit. They glorify each other, and when Jesus asks the Father to Glorify Him, it seems to be in keeping with how they eternally co-exist as separate but One. In John 1, it also talks about this shared eternal existence while maintaining their separation. "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning."

I really don't see how John 1:2 can be grasped on the concept of oneness. All this and the Word became flesh.

I'm not here to debate, but to test theology as it were metal and see if the temper holds integrity and thereby edify by scrutiny to see what is Biblical.

We're on the same page here! :yes

 

[Mike]

I don't know. My brain hurts. I think I should sleep and get some rest...

TL, the good news is that you don't have to have the precise understanding if you were going to face the Lord tomorrow. I believe the Trinity expresses the fullness of God's nature, and knowing that nature will lead to a fuller understanding of Him. This is of overall great benefit while in our flesh. But, IMO, a misunderstanding of His nature is not going to trump all you have done to devote yourself to Him.

This is a unique conversation on the topic of the Trinity indeed. It is the friendliest of friendly debates on the topic I've seen. :yes

 

[Ashua]

Ashua, first, thank you for your response in the spirit you gave it. Too often this topic raises tension, and it doesn't need to be that way. We are "theologians" in that we study God. We want to know Him more and more. This should be very important to any one who loves Him. I love my wife, and this love drove me to want to know everything about her. And as many jokes as there are about husbands tuning out their wives, I still want know who she is as she changes. The good news is that God doesn't change. So, in looking at scripture, we see everything He ever was and will be!



Do you really understand the nature of the Trinity? Because I hold to it, but the idea that something can be separate but one is hard to fully grasp. As Hank Hanegraaff says, I apprehend it more than I comprehend it. IMO, there is nothing in scripture to say that a person who calls upon Jesus as their Lord and Savior will need to account for their understanding of His nature when they've spent their lives seeking it.

I will start by saying that I DO believe Jesus IS God tabernacling in the flesh --that is God himself in a vessel of flesh. Jesus is God manifest.



Well, I can see your argument. But when the Hebrews named people, they did it for a reason, to describe their nature, right. My understanding of Isaiah 9 is that he is describing Jesus. He will be wonderful, the prince of peace, and He will share the eternal characteristics of the Father. These are characteristics of Him. We don't say "in the name of the Wonderful Counselor" or "in the name of the Prince of Peace", etc.



Ashua, I don't expect that I will change your much deliberated and prayed upon understanding of His nature. But I would hold that the verses you mention only serve to support the nature Jesus shares with the Father while keeping them distinct at the same time. Jesus, the Father, the Holy Spirit. They glorify each other, and when Jesus asks the Father to Glorify Him, it seems to be in keeping with how they eternally co-exist as separate but One. In John 1, it also talks about this shared eternal existence while maintaining their separation. "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning."

I really don't see how John 1:2 can be grasped on the concept of oneness. All this and the Word became flesh.



We're on the same page here! :yes

Mike, you make a good case, but I think its harder to rely on the English. This is something I always have and probably always will have to continue to meditate on.

I don't really even have trinity vs oneness cross my mind in the normal course of things.

I just confess that Yeshua is the Messiah, the son of the living God. I confess there is one God --triune or otherwise.

I acknowledge the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit --whatever the substance of their being and concede that great is the mystery of God. If he wants me to know, he will reveal it to me. Until this day, I'm just going to sit in the middle road and not lean too far to one side or the other. the LORD my God is echad. Yeshua is his only begotten son. In whatever capacity.

There is a lot that seems to suggest a trinitarian perspective. There is a lot which seems to suggest a oneness perspective. Until I can see all of the scriptures culminate in one homogeneous accord --thereby confirming my interpretation by the testimony of every witness (scriptural evidence) then I will be content to confess the Son of the most High -the One true God.

Thanks for being so gracious, Mike. Don't be bashful to overkill your stance if as the spirit speaks to you.

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer [shall be] abomination. -Proverbs 28:9

Far be it from me to turn away from whatever scriptural evidence that may come your way.

Anyways, it is also noteworthy to recall the parts in the Gospels where Jesus is speaking with the Pharisees and the Sadducces. Remember those times when the two would come to Jesus to settle a theological matter which the two sects disagree on? "Teacher, teacher!" Notice how Jesus never beguiled them for being wrong in their interpretations on theological matters--because it was a matter of enfeebled understanding? They were trying to comprehend. Jesus only became angry when they worked in a spirit of malice and not according to an hunger for the bread of the word and after a thirst for righteousness.

Jesus taught and reproved men, but he never seemed to judge those who failed to discern the scriptures correctly if they were genuine in their study.

It is good for all to remember this --regardless of who is right and who is wrong on ALL matters --not just this one alone.

Thanks again, Mike.

 

[theLords]

TL, the good news is that you don't have to have the precise understanding if you were going to face the Lord tomorrow. I believe the Trinity expresses the fullness of God's nature, and knowing that nature will lead to a fuller understanding of Him. This is of overall great benefit while in our flesh. But, IMO, a misunderstanding of His nature is not going to trump all you have done to devote yourself to Him.

This is a unique conversation on the topic of the Trinity indeed. It is the friendliest of friendly debates on the topic I've seen. :yes

Thank you Mike. The Lord truly gave me a great testimony and added to my measure of faith. I stand firm on the Rock that is the Lord and I feel wonderful about it!

I also agree about the great nature of this Trinity discussion. It makes it so much easier to learn sincerely. Me and Ashua spoke about doing a Bible Study when our school work was less demanding, I invite you to join!

Our God is soooooo Good. His kindness is so pure and His love is wonderful. I fall deeper in love with Him every day :heart

 

[theLords]

Jesus taught and reproved men, but he never seemed to judge those who failed to discern the scriptures correctly if they were genuine in their study.

It is good for all to remember this --regardless of who is right and who is wrong on ALL matters --not just this one alone.

Thanks again, Mike.

Beautifully said!

"Did our hearts not burn within us?"

PS- Ashua, you are such a blessing! The humility of Christ that exudes from you is a reminder to me of the Character of Christ. I can't say this enough, especially when so many run rampant with their theology in this day and age. Once again, may you be blessed in the name of the Lord Jesus. May you be blessed in His wisdom, understanding, kindness and humility. Our God is great and this board is constantly showing this to me. It's wonderful :D

 

[Ashua]

Meh this is the one I was thinking of earlier but couldn't quite get it out of my head onto text..

Better late than never:


Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. -1st Corinthians 12:3

 

[Mike]

Meh this is the one I was thinking of earlier but couldn't quite get it out of my head onto text..

Better late than never:


Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. -1st Corinthians 12:3

In presenting this verse, are you interpreting this in another way than to say that we are only able to be brought to faith by the power of the Holy Spirit? Until a person opens their heart to the Holy Spirit, the Truth is folly to him/her? That's how I interpret it.